Once were warriors

[Bill77]

Bill, it is inevitable if Macedonians don't assert themselves in the near future.

The word "IF" proves to me you have not given up and there is a chance, hope.

Perhaps we need to define exactly what doomsday means to you all. Was it when the flag was changed? When the constitution was changed? When Macedonia started becoming a bi-lingual state? What else should we wait for before we start taking a firm stance before we lose total control of our destiny?

Now i am confused again regarding hope, Yes we have taken a hit. Doomsday means its the end. If it is the end, lets pack up and leave. What are we battling for when its the end, we hit doomsday?
Lets just live the rest of our lives depressed and have nothing else to look fwd to except death which will come as a relief.

You are probably going to say you did not mean it that way. So make it clear to me, Do you think we have arrived to doomsday? or not yet?
(i mean doomsday as the end, final, no turning back).

If you've been on this forum for a while you would be well aware of all the issues facing Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

Our forefathers had issues facing Macedonia. They faced their adversaries who were in much greater numbers. The opponents would have thought "Its Doomsday for the Macedonians". But not the Macedonian warriors.

Even though Macedonians were cautious and did not ignore the fact it would be a difficult task facing them, They had faith in there leaders and worked for them and not inspite of them. One reason why we became mighty.

Failure to act or respond in some manner should be considered as either weakness or ignorance,

That is true. All i am saying is it can be done and its not doomsday yet.

Think about the photo that you posted of the young Macedonians in the train recently, and how some of them had the ventilator flag. How should that be perceived?

unfortunate but its not final

Are the kids in the photo not aware of how damaging that flag is?

Kid not Kids you can't put them all in the same basket. Are they Guilty by association? Then the likes of vangelovski does not have to mention specifically to that photo that they are traitors if that is the case or some sort of a stance by MTO. If a person is guilty by association, then vangelovski's article that has a large ventilator waving along side it, is just as guilty and he has no excuse.

Yes, infact one of the boys spoke to the one holding the ventilator. Apparently the explanation raised his eyebrows. Thats what the helping hand achieved, A black eye would have worked the opposite.

Are they aware but simply don't care?

One was definitely aware and cared so we should be careful we don't spray bullets. The others i am not sure. But judging by the looks of things, these holding the Kutlesh, are fortunate to naturally feel and accept what is right.

Are they too weak to stand up for what is right?

You can use my above answers for this

Being staunch won't always make you new friends, but at least one could say that their integrity is in tact.

I think the opposite. It would make you new friends and integrity will remain intact. Gandhi was staunch so was Hitler, which one of these achieved more admiration.

We need to harden up and stop being so sensitive each time one of our ideological flaws are highlighted.

I don't think our ideology differs. Its just the way we act on it that we differ on what we think would be more beneficial to our cause.

The 'soft' approach doesn't work mate. It has failed us every single time in our recent history. And until we start learning how to speak with one voice in a consistent manner, we will never make any progress.

In worse case scenario, its ok to slap someone with their left hand, but always have your right to help them up of the floor.

Also give me an example where we have used a soft approach that let us down? i am not talking about soft approach towards our enemies. I am talking about how we should approach our own. Do we want to make our own enemies? or should our aim be to win them over, if so how would abusing them when we can try first to open our arms, win them over.

I am not saying anything different to either of them. Yet, those of you who have responded to Vangelovski in a certain manner have not responded the same to myself.

Thats because you don't throw out "You love the ventilator" or "you favour fyrom" bez veza.

[Helvetia]

Helvetia, there will never be a time to do what you propose. We have had 10 years of being the "jewel" since losing the war in 2001. You are clearly wrong on a number of levels.

You can't have things done overnight. They are worked towards over years, over time and then they are finished with best possible results. That's just how things works. If we try to rise too fast, do things too quickly then we will fall hard and fast.

[Helvetia]

I am finding inconsistencies with what you are saying. You continue to discuss war not being an option, I have not stated you must go to war
I like, RTG, think you are very naive or here to promote another agenda

How many Macedonians in Macedonia? How many Albanians in Macedonia?
Why do you need the repect of the EU, an organisation that is eroding our sovereignty?
Why do you want Nato's respect?
Do you accept the framework agreement, enjoy being called a fyrom, and agree with the continuance of name negotiations?

You state wait 10 years, its been 20!!
in 10 years people will start listening??

In 10 years if a pro-active people dont start protesting TODAY you will be a muslim Albanian in the land of greater Albania. Macedonia will not exist

Whether we like it or not, the EU and NATO both are prestigious international organisations. If we choose to isolate ourselves, it will not be for the better. If we pass anti-Albanian policies, it will only isolate us and destroy all the progress we've made in the last 20 years. What happened to Serbia will happen to Macedonia. If not wanting Macedonia to have similar fate to Serbia's then I guess I do have an agenda...

I don't believe that Macedonia will be a Muslim country in just ten years. We've been here for centuries, survived 500 years of Ottoman occupation, what's another 10 years?

[Risto the Great]

Helvetia, there will never be a time to do what you propose. We have had 10 years of being the "jewel" since losing the war in 2001. You are clearly wrong on a number of levels.

[julie]

I am finding inconsistencies with what you are saying. You continue to discuss war not being an option, I have not stated you must go to war
I like, RTG, think you are very naive or here to promote another agenda

How many Macedonians in Macedonia? How many Albanians in Macedonia?
Why do you need the repect of the EU, an organisation that is eroding our sovereignty?
Why do you want Nato's respect?
Do you accept the framework agreement, enjoy being called a fyrom, and agree with the continuance of name negotiations?

You state wait 10 years, its been 20!!
in 10 years people will start listening??

In 10 years if a pro-active people dont start protesting TODAY you will be a muslim Albanian in the land of greater Albania. Macedonia will not exist

[Helvetia]

The FA and IA you imply is not a bad alternative to the Albanian problem. Those "agreements" have eroded Macedonian sovereignty.
How are Macedonians prepared to repeal the agreements?

I don't think it's possible nor wise to repeal the Framework tomorrow. As far as I'm concerned, it's the only thing that's keeping a lid on the Albanians in Macedonia. I would say in ten years we can consider the repealing of the Framework when we're sitting in a better position economically and militarily. Meanwhile all we can do is help our country develop to be a jewel of the Balkans and make our neighbors envious of us, of our economic prowess, and that's more commendable than going to war. The EU will respect us, the NATO as well and diplomats will have to start listening to us.

[julie]

Well, one of the solutions is probably to announce our intention to assimilate the Albanians fully into Macedonian society. The Ohrid Framework harms that so we have to repeal it but we'd guarantee full and equal rights to all citizens of Macedonia as enshrined in the Constitution. Basically, as long as you speak Macedonian, you'd be treated as an equal. War isn't an option nor the expulsion of Albanians from Macedonia. That would just provoke a response from the NATO. We lucked out with a relatively short war in 2001 that could've been as destructive as Kosovo but we ended it before it got worse. We did create new problems with the Framework but at least this time we can get a peaceful solution to the Albanian problem and that is honestly far better than going to war over it.

The FA and IA you imply is not a bad alternative to the Albanian problem. Those "agreements" have eroded Macedonian sovereignty.
How are Macedonians prepared to repeal the agreements?

[Helvetia]

Helvetia, I find your logic a little naive and wonder if you are being serious with your intent on this forum.

I am a Macedonian and proud of it. I am just a pragmatist.

[Risto the Great]

Helvetia, I find your logic a little naive and wonder if you are being serious with your intent on this forum.

[Helvetia]

Do you not think there is a way to take matters into our own hands and assert ourselves without provoking NATO to bomb us? What exactly would warrant such a reaction from NATO? The constitutional changes are a disgrace to Macedonia. How can they be reversed or replaced with something more adequate?

Well, one of the solutions is probably to announce our intention to assimilate the Albanians fully into Macedonian society. The Ohrid Framework harms that so we have to repeal it but we'd guarantee full and equal rights to all citizens of Macedonia as enshrined in the Constitution. Basically, as long as you speak Macedonian, you'd be treated as an equal. War isn't an option nor the expulsion of Albanians from Macedonia. That would just provoke a response from the NATO. We lucked out with a relatively short war in 2001 that could've been as destructive as Kosovo but we ended it before it got worse. We did create new problems with the Framework but at least this time we can get a peaceful solution to the Albanian problem and that is honestly far better than going to war over it.

[Helvetia]

Is that why Macedonians don't take matters into their own hands? Fear of being crushed?
Look at recent developments within the Middle East. The people took matters into their own hands

The Middle East and Europe aren't the same. What happened to Serbia WILL happen to us if we take matters in our hands. Heck, we've got a bigger export economy than Serbia does right now and that's just plain comical but somewhat sad as well.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If we tried to take matters into our own hands, we would be immediately crushed by the NATO just as they crushed the Serbs when they tried to take on Kosovo problems by their own.

Do you not think there is a way to take matters into our own hands and assert ourselves without provoking NATO to bomb us? What exactly would warrant such a reaction from NATO? The constitutional changes are a disgrace to Macedonia. How can they be reversed or replaced with something more adequate?

[julie]

I understand where you're coming from, and unfortunately, this is something we must accept for now. When we've managed to turn our country into a Western equivalent of Switzerland or close then we can think about abolishing the Framework and ensure the Albanians are assimilated. But right now? We're just a poor country with barely any power. If we tried to take matters into our own hands, we would be immediately crushed by the NATO just as they crushed the Serbs when they tried to take on Kosovo problems by their own.

Is that why Macedonians don't take matters into their own hands? Fear of being crushed?
Look at recent developments within the Middle East. The people took matters into their own hands

[Helvetia]

Macedonia didn't manage to do anything. The Albanians 'Albanianised' Macedonia - they turned Macedonia into an equally Albanian state which is, in my view, worse than if they seceded.

I understand where you're coming from, and unfortunately, this is something we must accept for now. When we've managed to turn our country into a Western equivalent of Switzerland or close then we can think about abolishing the Framework and ensure the Albanians are assimilated. But right now? We're just a poor country with barely any power. If we tried to take matters into our own hands, we would be immediately crushed by the NATO just as they crushed the Serbs when they tried to take on Kosovo problems by their own.

[Soldier of Macedon]

NATO helped us clean up the Albanians......

Are you serious? NATO helped the extremist Albanians escape and ensured that our idiot leaders give them a free pass for all the troubles - like Gruevski recently did. NATO (together with the weakness of our government) is the reason why Macedonia is now becoming a bi-lingual state.