Albanianization in Macedonia

[Bratot]

Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia.

Of interest to me is what motivated you to come on here with guns blazing when many of us have identified similar groups and acknowledge the presence of slave/serf mentalities. We wish to know how we can convert this pre-dominant slave/serf mentality to something of more use to a liberated or free Macedonia. .

Acknowledging a group and addressing to the group is not a case of synonimia.

Communicology as science isn't about calling a spade a spade, something that you omit to realize when asking for the answer how to convert the particular group.

There are inteligent and ignorant students, but if you are their teacher, you will not despise the second cathegory and call them stupid but you will find your way into teaching them by motivating and inspiring them, instead of being sardonic and offensive.

We go in circles all this time and I'm beginning to wonder what is actually more difficult at this moment, getting your sensibility on this issue or converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology.

[George S.]

if you go to other countries like germany i think or switzerland they won't let you to buy houses or land.You can only lease a house but yo can't buy it.Otherwise people like albanians will take over.What is macedonia doing nothing.The albanians know that they will win gradually.

[Mastika]

Niko, Labunista is still a Macedonian Muslim village. It is incorrect to say that "in the last decades thousands of Albanians have moved in." The Torbeshi due to their own reasons have been writing themseleves as Albanians, Turks, Bosniaks, Muslims etc. 100 years ago in 1905 it was a mixed Macedonian Christian/Muslim village, this is still the case, however with a ratio much more favourable to the Muslims (c. 95%).

You are right in the message that you are trying to send however. There are a few more 90%+ Albanian villages in Macedonia with around 5,000 inhabitants; Velesta, Aracinovo, Celopek, Studenicani, Dobri Dol, Chegrane, Zajas and Mala Recica. The numbers in all instances are probably exaggerated however, yet it is disturbing to see such a disproportionate increase in numbers.

[Risto the Great]

Acknowledging a group and addressing to the group is not a case of synonimia.

Communicology as science isn't about calling a spade a spade, something that you omit to realize when asking for the answer how to convert the particular group.

Seriously, think about the above two paragraphs. What do you really want to say? In fact, put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them what they think you mean.

There are inteligent and ignorant students, but if you are their teacher, you will not despise the second cathegory and call them stupid but you will find your way into teaching them by motivating and inspiring them, instead of being sardonic and offensive.

We go in circles all this time and I'm beginning to wonder what is actually more difficult at this moment, getting your sensibility on this issue or converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology.

I don't remember calling them stupid. Why would I when Protivpropaganda identifies them as the majority? That would be suicide. Why are you putting words in my mouth Bratot?

You finished your paragraph with the key issue of "converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology". Which was my question.

[makedonin]

I wanted to drop a line here about reaching groups and teaching people.
In any activity there are many so called best practices which can be used as guide lines. Here is what the most successful propagator have said about his best practices he employed when he was spreading one of the worlds religions:

19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.

I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.


1 Corinthians 9:19-23

Maybe it will give some answers to how someone ought to teach and propagate certain Ideologies!

I don't think anyone can dispute the success of Pauls mission for spreading the new Christian religion!

What is his strategy?

I call it "infiltration from inside"!

[protivpropaganda]

Good analysis protivpropaganda

Thank you Frank, I appreciate it.
I was beggining to wonder if my english is bad or people just refuse to understand me.

Vangelovski,
I never quote Rawls.

You may not know it but you do. No biggie, mate. Apsolutely no problem at all. Sometimes I do to but on a different level.

I think what you call an "individual" and what I call a "citizen" are very similar. When I talk of a citizen I mean a FREE person who has a political relationship with other FREE people. Every person has natural rights AND responsibilities, as citizens of a particular state, they have additional rights and responsibilities. And I agree, the freedom of the individual is paramount.

I'm talking about freedom (with responsibilities) which means that if a person is free he has all the rights and the cooperation among individuals is a voluntary one for advancing the interests of the individual or the collective (the bigger picture).
You on the other hand talk about additional rights and responsibilities and tighten the scope of the individual by assigning him political relationships which by my meanings is understood without question.
Do read up on the difference between freedom and permission since you obviuosly didn't read the link I provided.

Actually even this is no biggie, mate. Both options are on the table and are equally good if there aren't problems that tend to leviate towards one option which in this case we have such a problem.
The problem that exists in Macedonia tends to lean toward my solution as to make your solution at all possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
I'm an advocate against big government.

So am I.

Sorry mate but you are an advocate of big government. What you propose is only possible if a big government exists and deals out permissions. This sort of government in order to function properly for the individual (citizen) must be responsible in the presence of strong individuals or else. If strong individuals are a microscopic entity in a society then we have a situation like the one we have in Macedonia.

Macedonia is neither a republic nor a liberal democracy and yes, the freedom part is vague.

You haven't read the Macedonian constitution, have you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
Unlike other countries where citizenship is viewed as the norm for a life in a democratic state in Macedonia screwing the system is a national sport practiced almost by everyone. What annoys us most is the fact that the shiptars are masters at screwing the system, abusing it to the utmost of their abilities hence destroying the state. Since under a democratic rule with a civil government they too are citizens of Macedonia and hold all the rights that a Macedonian would hold but not the responsibilities. They abuse the system to enact their interests upon all else while crying loudly that they are being repressed if the law tries to curtail their offenses.

I think this applies equally to the Macedonians as well as Albanians, but that is a generalisation.

No, this is an analysis with a satirical twist. It isn't a generalisation since it clearly defines a mental state that produces a negative behaviour which is evident in most if not all of the citizens in Macedonia.
Macedonians screw the system in order to attain for themselves illbegotten material gains and that is all, pure greed without looking at the consequences. The shiptars do the same but a certain large number of them do it with an ill intended agenda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
Ofcourse through corruption of mindless idiots who hold nothing sacred and always through threat of destabilising the state they achieve almost all their goals. The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.

This is the scaremongering I was talking about. The Macedonian government, or rather, the Macedonian people are not powerless to improve the situation, rather, they lack the will to do so for reasons you correctly raise below.

Scaremongering you say?
Well... Hmmm... Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines scaremongering as:
- one inclined to raise or excite alarms especially needlessly
Here is the link:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scaremongering

Do concentrate on the word "one" that denotes individual action and not an organised activity aimed at a target society to instill apathy in a psyops conflict.
If you had read the link I provided then you wouldn't insist on using the term. Let's not have anymore of that please.
BTW, this isn't scaremongering but information since I do give a correct form of action to counter the effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation. If you need any information please ask. If I do not know the answer I will try and find it for you.

You make too many assumptions about the people you're debating with.

Allow me to state again an undisputable fact that my vast education gives me the ability to read psychological profiles of people from what they say, how they say it, how they react to provocation or just write what they feel is important.
Also I didn't make an assumption of anything but offered you my help if you need it... You know... As a friend and a compatriot.
If you refuse my offer all you have to do is say so.

[Bratot]

Seriously, think about the above two paragraphs. What do you really want to say? In fact, put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them what they think you mean.

Since you intentionally twisted our real objections with saying:

Risto said:
Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia

There wasn't problem to accept that such group exist, the problem was how you chosed to address them.

I don't remember calling them stupid. Why would I when Protivpropaganda identifies them as the majority? That would be suicide. Why are you putting words in my mouth Bratot?

It's called analogy ( read more ) and why don't you put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them if they really buy your 'naivete'.

You finished your paragraph with the key issue of "converting those Macedonians to be stronghold of our ideology". Which was my question.

Why bothering to ask if you don't accept the critique and advice?

[Vangelovski]

PP,

I think you have reverted back to your "intellectualism" which is beginning to fail you miserably. You were doing much better when you stopped trying to prove yourself.

1. Don't pretend to understand Rawls. Besides, my views have been formed with reference to much more relevant and intellectually superior minds than Rawls.

2. Your understanding of an individual versus a citizen is fundamentally flawed. An individual does not necessarily have a political relationship with other individuals. As an Australian, I do not have a political relationship with an American. As individuals, we can cooperate on political issues and we both have inalienable natural rights and corresponding responsibilities, however, we are citizens of two very different political communities and if I were to go to the United States, I would not enjoy the same rights or be obligated to accept the same responsibilities as an American. This is important, because there are certain rights and responsibilities that individuals do not have vis-a-vis each other, whereas citizens do. However, In other words, an Individual is not necessarily a citizen, but a citizen (should be)/is an individual. I'm beginning to think that you do not consider the political community (and therefore the state with its institutions and representative government) as necessary.

3. Your vague, but unsubstantiated assumption that I advocate "big government" is quite telling. Perhaps you have a vastly different opinion of what a "big government" is? This is a subjective issue and there are no right or wrong answers. Perhaps as an "individualist" (anarchist?) you view any government as big government?

4. I'm quite familiar with the Macedonian constitution. Are you familiar with what a republic is? Are you familiar with liberal democracy? Can you see the difference between claiming to be a republic and a liberal democracy and actually living up to that claim?

5. Webster's dictionary is not an authority on political concepts. Being the self-declared "intellectual" that you are, shouldn't you know that certain terms have different meanings in different fields of study? Do you know that political dictionaries exist and contain definitions of terms used in political science? Do you know that hundreds of scholars in the field of political science have debated the concept of 'scaremongering' and not one of them would agree with YOUR definition?

6. Your "vast education" is not an "undisputable fact", and is yet to be demonstrated. You are, however, begining to sound like a self-inflated "Prof. D-r" from the University of SS. Kiril and Metodi...or is it FON?

7. You are still making unsubstantiated assumptions about those with whom you are debating.

[Vangelovski]

It's called analogy ( read more ) and why don't you put it to the rest of the forum participants and ask them if they really buy your 'naivete'.

Bratot,

Are you saying that when someone calls you a name its an insult and when your friend "Prof. D-r" does it, its an analogy?

[protivpropaganda]

You have defined 2 groups: Strong defiant types AND slave/serf non-defiant types. You have associated the strong/defiant types with those who are committed to upholding the rule of the law. The Ohrid Agreement is the rule of the law. I fail to see the correlation of being strong/defiant whilst being compliant in this regard. Notwithstanding this, I agree there are 2 types and there are far less strong/defiant types than slave/serf types. Some on this forum find it very difficult to accept the existence of slaves/serfs in Macedonia.

This is the second time that you have misquoted me. The first is:
I wrote:
it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual.

You quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by protivpropaganda
it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys

From this we can blame the individual if the individual is not enjoying freedom. I don't think we are too far apart on this.

Without the second part the sentence loses its intended meaning. Since I meant that there exist a will or the lack of it and it can be manipulated in one way or the other.

The second time is the same. Only partial quotes which change the meaning.
I did not say that Macedonians were slaves or serfs rather I stated that a slave mentality and a serf behaviour exist. Most Macedonians behave and think of themselves as such or to say it more precisely they are led to think in such a way. Macedonians aren't slaves nor are they serf at the moment per se but the majority does have such a world view and do behave accordingly to it. I should also mention the saying:
A happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom.
This statement give a very clear picture of why current propaganda reinforces such attitudes and behaviours in Macedonia.

As for the witty rule of law comment I thank you for showing the error in my writing. Strong individuals will uphold the rule of law and will change any law that is inherently against their interests.
There, much better, isn't it?

Of interest to me is what motivated you to come on here with guns blazing when many of us have identified similar groups and acknowledge the presence of slave/serf mentalities. We wish to know how we can convert this pre-dominant slave/serf mentality to something of more use to a liberated or free Macedonia. Your thoughts are most welcome.

I came here as a well intentioned Macedonian patriot with experience to discuss Macedonian matters with other patriots and maybe, just maybe, find ways to counter the psyops which our nation is under in an organised fashion. I have written about one of the end results but haven't mentioned the means by which it should be achevied. It is highly noticable if one read my posts carefully and with an open mind.
I haven't written that many posts and if you had read them then you would have noticed that I didn't start anything, I didn't provoce anybody nor did I offend anybody but was provoced and was offended.

I think what you are really saying is "if we are gonna have a pissing contest, I will win". But that is fine, we want to learn from all Macedonians.

You took away from me the right to rant that I will inevitably win and this isn't very Macedonian of you, but I like it.
What I was actually saying was that I live in Macedonia. I experience first hand what you all read in the newspapers. I also do analysis of the things going on and have been doing them since the late 1980s.
Also, as evidence that I wasn't going for the kill was that I offered help with information if one needed it.
I didn't come here as an enemy but was percieved as one through no fault of my own. As soon as the pissing contests are over I will go about doing what I came to do and that is to contemplate solutions and learn a little more about my diaspora, its likes, dislikes and hopes for the sole reason as to implement them into the strategies of the future counter psyops to be held which will be beneficial to our interests.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Are you saying that when someone calls you a name its an insult and when your friend "Prof. D-r" does it, its an analogy?

I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say, so why don't you explain your point in Macedonian?

[Niko777]

Niko, Labunista is still a Macedonian Muslim village. It is incorrect to say that "in the last decades thousands of Albanians have moved in." The Torbeshi due to their own reasons have been writing themseleves as Albanians, Turks, Bosniaks, Muslims etc. 100 years ago in 1905 it was a mixed Macedonian Christian/Muslim village, this is still the case, however with a ratio much more favourable to the Muslims (c. 95%).

I know there is a presence of Macedonian Muslims with different identities, however we need to admit there is a presence of Albanians in this village, and like most other villages in the Struga region, they did come in the last decades buying land in non-Albanian villages. Albanian nationalism is on the rise in Labunistsa, and the Albanian language is being spoken, so that is why I doubt that they are all Torbeshi.

[Vangelovski]

I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say, so why don't you explain your point in Macedonian?

Bratot,

You're English has improved markedly in this post. I'll try my best in Macedonian.

Прашањето ми беше: со Вашиот одговор на Ристо, дали сакавте да кажите дека нарекување имиња е навреда кога тоа е насочено кон Вас, но истото е аналогија кога е направен од страна на вашиот пријател "Проф. д-р" Противпропаганда?

[Bratot]

bratot,

you're english has improved markedly in this post. I'll try my best in macedonian.

Прашањето ми беше: со Вашиот одговор на Ристо, дали сакавте да кажите дека нарекување имиња е навреда кога тоа е насочено кон Вас, но истото е аналогија кога е направен од страна на вашиот пријател "Проф. д-р" Противпропаганда?

Мојот пријател, кој за волја на вистината навистина е д-р, ти го даде одговорот во неговата реплика до Ристо.

Затоа би Ве замолил г-дине Вангеловски да се воздржите од понатамошни игри на зборови и инфантилни обиди за релативизирање на Вашиот навредувачки и понижувачки однос.

[Risto the Great]

There wasn't problem to accept that such group exist, the problem was how you chosed to address them.

Are the slave/serf mentality types the majority in Macedonia or not? This is protivpropaganda's assertion. Let us be sure about how you see this first.

I am far from naive, in fact I am quite sure my frustration with the lack of will in Macedonia for change in Macedonia is abundantly clear. What protivpropaganda has said merely confirms my belief that little hope exists with people committed to a servitude mentality. Especially whilst they whine about their plight.

Why bothering to ask if you don't accept the critique and advice?

The advice is to not call them names. I get it. But when you rope in protivpropaganda to come here, he can call the majority of Macedonians slave/serf mentalities without any consequence?

To be honest, I am much more disgusted with the name calling and hatred of ethnic Albanians. They are people who deserve to live free lives as well. If the Macedonians have no desire to live free lives, then logic dictates what happens next. If the slave/serf mentality is as prevalent as protivpropaganda suggests, there would be no chance. But I think there is still hope.