Albanianization in Macedonia

[Risto the Great]

I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.

But you are asking for much more. You prefer to be dishonest to Macedonians so you don't offend them. You have finally admitted to the slave mentality existing in Macedonia. You choose not to speculate how extensive this problem is. But our man on the ground protivpropaganda says it is the majority of Macedonians.

So how do we make you happy about it? Do we have to find a non-offensive word to describe these awful attributes? Is that it? How about "compliant". The problem with finding an alternative word to describe this phenomena is that the word will take on new connotations simply because of the "Macedonian Curse". My case in point is the "constitutional name" .... look it up on Google for a laugh/cry.

Where do we go from here mate, is the "slave mentality" going to be the big elephant in the room that nobody talks about but everybody can see?

[Risto the Great]

Also have in mind that a true patriot can give an analysis which isn't favourable to his nation but will not intentionally belittle or insult it.

Allow me to quote someone who no longer can be deemed a true patriot:

"Grizhete se da ja iskorenite taa slabost [chekanata pomosh odnadvor] i od najzabludeniot strashlivec, pa namesto toa, neka se rodi nepobedlivata sila na samodejnosta i reshitelnosta i togash veruvajte, sekoj eden kje se bori dokraj so najgolema zhestokost...." Goce Delchev, 17 Oktomvri 1895

"Take care to root out that weakness [the expectation of foreign help] even from the most deluded coward, and instead of that, let there be born the unbeatable power of self-reliance and decisiveness, and then, rest assured, everyone will fight to the end most vehemently..."

'This people must be roused from the five-century-old sleep that has made the Macedonian rather thick on the subject of human rights. And, if not the whole people, then at least part of it...." Goce Delchev

God forbid anyone from identifying problems in Macedonia.

Positive reinforcement is the new mantra nowadays, certainly in primary schools in Australia. Unfortunately, nobody can read or do maths nowadays.

[indigen]

Anybody who has ever worked on organising groups for active patriotic work knows that they fail when people who come into the group are there for everything else other then patriotic work.
Such people can be either agents of our enemies or people with emotional issues (loneliness, conflicting personalities, dreams of grandure or just manipulative people looking for easy and trustfull pray).

Those that are agents come into the group under the guise of patriots. Those that have emotional issues quite often are themselves convinced in their own patriotic feelings. The reasons these people join such groups can vary but the end result is always the same, unabling of the group to be active or destroying the group altoghether.
This they achieve through the spread of discordance, stopping initiatives or just quarrelling with anybody that disagrees with them. They turn members one against the other to create a negative atmosphere within the group through the creation of conflict situations among the members.

No activity can be started because they will oppose or distract any initiative aggressively. After they create a negative atmosphere within the group they gather unsuspecting members to them through the promise of better ideas and stronger leadership in order to take over the leadership of the group.

If an agent is in question the group falls apart never to assemble again but the bitter taste of failure lingers on in the former members. If a person with emotional issues is in question then the group will, at least, be active only as a place where people gather to argue among themselves. In this way the group will not succeed in any of its primary reasons for which it was formed or the group will fall apart altoghether.

It is like a formula that never misses when it comes to a collective form of patriotic work. Only one group of the many I have formed or helped to form dissipitated because of the lack of material funds for its activity. All else were destroyed in the already described fashion.
Unfortunately I have witnessed a high degree of discordance among the members on this forum. People gather here only to argue amongst each other never coming to a conclusion or agreement.
Although I have read many quality posts of members which shows an attendance of true patriots I have witnessed that there is always some member who aggressively doesn't agree or distracts the topic altoghether.

.

I think you just described yourself and, IMO, Bratot, amongst others, perfectly.

Who would pretend to support end the name negotiations campaign and at the same time support staying with the Interim Accord, which calls for name negotiations?

Who would be Anti-Ramkovist but comes here and make excuses for those that sold us out?

Who would make excuses for treason and capitulation regarding the Interim Accord?

A patriot would be vehemently opposed to those that delivered us treasonous acts of capitulation in 1993, 1995, 2001 and currently on the way to providing another shameful date by negotiating on our very name and identity. Any apologists and whitewashers covering up these dirty deeds with excuses should be treated with caution and suspicion, especially if they show a level of knowledge that is beyond innocent ignorance of the facts, as our friend/s above does/do!


The Macedonian Cause

Ensuring the Republic of Macedonia is a free, independent, democratic and sovereign state; is the nation-state of the Macedonian people, culture, language and identity; is the home of all its citizens to which it guarantees all internationally recognised freedoms and rights.

Securing the abolishment of any existing laws, regulations and acts that discriminate against the Macedonian people,

The end of self-discrimination of Macedonians and the empowerment of the Macedonian people to liberate themselves from enslaved or victim mindsets and the instilment of deep-rooted national, cultural, linguistic and historical pride of all that is being a Macedonian.

With this definition, we will be able to ask a simple question to anyone who purports to be fighting for our Macedonian cause ... Are you with us, or against us?

For this reason, this process should receive the best of your attention folks. Rogi has arrived at the need for this document through a very well conceived thought process. If we dwell on the significance of this document, it should occur to all of us that compromise will only ever be done as long as there are no violations to the Macedonian cause.

I didn't want this to turn into just another UMD-bashing thread. I was hoping the focus would be kept on UMD's policy on the Ohrid Framework Agreement, which not only appeases and thereby encourages racist violence or ongoing threats of racist violence by Albanian extremists, but constitutes a foundation for ethnic segregation and ultimate disintegration of the Macedonian state, with yet more parts of Macedonia being subjected to ethnic cleansing and racist repression.

It is obviously clear to most people that the UMD public statement that inspired this thread is a clear endorsement of the Framework Agreement , and encouragement for the Macedonian Government to continue implementing it, as well as to implement future similar demands by Albanian extremists and their shameless US, NATO and EU sponsors. Yet in a recent conversation with Meto in Sydney, he indicated that the UMD does not have a policy on the Framework Agreement. If that is the case, I encourage the UMD to remove the public statement in question from its website and to consider adopting a policy that recognizes the Framework Agreement and all subsequent legislation and policies that are inspired by it as an ongoing process that poses the greatest danger to the survival of the Republic of Macedonia as a sovereign home of the Macedonian people and to the rights and prosperity of its non-Albanian citizens.

A vote for the EU is a vote for the framework agreement. In fact it is even worse than the framework agreement on its own in my opinion. And that is saying something.

Homer MakeDonski: Draw to be put forward
YouTube - Makedonija 2001 - Bitkata za aracinovo Eve ja vistinata
Indeed all *Srankovisti hangers-on are traitors to the Macedonian cause.

Hoping that is UMD state you are pointing is about political demagogy only , and your criticism will have valuable results

"UMD" [Tuesday, 25 August 2009]:"...Macedonia actually is the only state in the region where ethnic minorities are granted the same status as the majority demographic in the state. The 2001 Framework Agreement ended Macedonia’s civil conflict and stipulated that Macedonia’s state policy towards minorities would be among the most liberal in the region...."

It is clear the FA is used by "UMD" to promote Macedonia in a "positive" light and thus is an endorsement of it. Furthermore, it is a JUSTIFICATION (legitimization) of the UCK (and their backers) terrorist activities and an exoneration of the TRAITORS, e.g. Boris Trajkovski, Branko Crvenkovski, LjuBcho Georgievski and Co., who signed and enacted into law (via amendments to the Constitution/Ustav) the CAPITUALTIONIST 2001 Framework Agreement.

Девет години Рамковен договор
Наим Вренези
13.08.2010


Потпишување на Рамковниот 2001.

Охридскиот Рамковен договор и девет години по неговото потпишување се уште жешка тема на политичката елита во земјава. За едни тој е контроверзен, за други патоказ за иднината. Некои го прогласија за мртов, други за билет за ЕУ и НАТО.

Договорот кој го запре крвавиот конфликт, веќе девет години е дел од поновата историја на Македонија. СДСМ и денес убедена дека друга алтернатива немало.

„Гледано од дистанца од девет години, а тоа не е голема дистанца во историска смисла, мислам дека кога би се прашале што би била алтернативата на тоа, мислам дека би било многу тешко да се спроведе таква алтернатива, така да ОРД дефинитивно ги стабилизираше меѓуетничките односи, направи еден вид патоказ како треба да се движи македонското општество,

тој е договор на политичките елити, значи институиран од горе и многу е важно како тој ќе профункционира меѓу граѓаните“, изјави Гордан Георгиев, потпретседател на СДСМ.

Од партијата на власт, исто потписник на документот, само протоколарна поддршка.

„Од моментот кога се потпиша ОРД постојано го почитуваме и ќе продолжиме доследно да го спроведуваме, со сите негови предности и слабости, правиме максимум да го спроведуваме по утврдената динамика, но и побрзо од тоа“, стои во писменото соопштение од ВМРО-ДПМНЕ.

Политичарите Албанци поделени, за ДУИ договорот ја води Македонија во Брисел, за Нова Демократија, тој е добар инструмент но се наоѓа во погрешни раце, за ДПА тој не постои, тој е мртов.

„И тогаш и сега ЕУ констатира дека Македонија напредува во имплементацијата на ОРД но, дека треба и понатаму да се продолжи со неговото спроведување. Во некои области има повеќе напредок, во некои се забележува напредок, меѓутоа има уште да се работи и да се довршува во овој Договор“, вели Абдулаќим Адеми, потпретседател на Влада.

„За жал во овој 9-годишен период често пати тој се најде во погрешни раце, како што е сега во моментот во рацете на оваа влада, на коалицијата ДУИ и ВМРО-ДПМНЕ кои што не само што не го спроведуваат она што е напишано во договорот и што понатаму е преточено во Уставот на РМ, туку често пати во делот на донесувањето на законите на многу рестриктивен начин се пренесува, а и по донесувањето на тие закони, тие не се спроведуваат во јавниот живот“, рече Имер Селмани, претседател на НД.

„Можам да констатирам дека овој договор не е реализиран и кога еден политички договор не се реализира, станува јасно дека треба да се понуди нешто ново. ДПА ја имаше таа визија да понуди нов договор, договор кој ќе ги реши овие чувствителни прашања на Албанците во Македонија, како што е пропорционалната распределба на Буџетот и консензуалната демократија“, изјави Имер Алији, ДПА.

Еден од главните актери во конфликтната 2001-ва, тогаш министер за внатрешни, Љубе Бошковски, смета дека Охридскиот договор не е мировен и тој не ја запрел војната, за која мисли дека е продукт на тајните служби на Белград.

„Сите оние системски закони кои требаше да се донесат, законот за високо образование, за локална самоуправа, за децентрализација и други, како дел од ОРД зборува за еден факт дека ние го имаме феноменот на формата и на содржината, ОРД беше само една рамка една форма на нешто што требаше да биде суштина, содржина во делот на содржината апсолутно го поддржувам во секоја точка она што се вика ОРД, не како договор кој проследува на пролевање на крв на недолжни граѓани на РМ“, вели Љубе Бошковски, претседател на ОМ.

Договорот кој беше создаден како рамка за доближување на Македонците и Албанците и понатаму останува топ тема на политичката сцена во Македонија, меѓуетничките односи иако добри сепак се кревки, Македонија живее во мир но и во голема сиромаштија, а чека подобри времиња за да и се приклучи на НАТО и Европската унија.

http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=126329

For fair use only.
----------

Shto e Ohridskiot ramkoven dogovor? Iznuden akt na kapitulatsiya na porazena strana

Yes, PP, I have worked successfully in a few organisations and one identifies (a very key element) and ISOLATES or excludes (depending on feasibility) ideological enemies. And how do they react when they are identified and outed? Exactly as you have done, throw mud to dirty the water and as a thief crying “Stop the thief!

At the same time a core ideological group can sense and identify ideological enemies and, whilst keeping them from key organisational information and work, put them to do safe practical work for years and years without any organisational damage.

[Risto the Great]

Getting back to the topic of this one, maybe you would like to give us your views on the Albanianisation of Macedonia?

I know the question was not put to me but I will say there is a cultural void in Macedonia occurring due to a de-Macedonianisation in Macedonia. The void will be filled by anyone with a coordinated agenda.

[indigen]

"Passionately challenged"

It's amusing how you picked up such positive term "Passionately" when describing your primitive personal attack.

You see how much one single word can change the whole context?

That's called - C O M M U N I C O L O G Y and it would be very constructive if you used the same approach when addressing to other people, especially those you want to persuade in the ideology of Macedonian Cause.

This is not a lecture about communication techniques but an issue of CONFLICTING IDEOLOGY, which you have involved yourself in by inviting this arrogant egomaniac to come here and tell (preach down to) us that we have all been wrong for years and years in thinking that we were sold out in 2001 (amongst the other dirty deeds and capitulations of previous years) by VASSAL ruling elites in Macedonia.

* is spinning BS anti-Macedonian propaganda
* Mr Ramkovist Agent/Apologist
* stupid apologist for the current Ramkovist clique in power now
* this “PP” now, IMO, is playing the role of an APOLOGIST for the RAMKOVISTS and other VASSAL politicians and their anti-Macedonian deeds. What changed your views? And the PP site is (and has always been) decorated with Ventilator iconography to boot, which has (and will) always repulse me ideologically..
* really don't give a shit what you think
* employed by the Ramkovist establishment to spread RAMKOVIST “PROPAGANDA”

Nice of you to subjectively present the main points but lets put some context to them and see if they are relevant or not. But is there anything you disagree (or find ideologically objectionable) with what PP says below?

Protivpropaganda #38

Julie: Why did MACEDONIANS allow the enforcement of the framework agreement?

PP: We didn't allow it. We were forced into it.

Indigen: It is called CAPITULATION and TREASON and your apologist propaganda is reeking of a RAMKOVIST sales pitch! That means we have ourselves yet another SALESMAN for RAMKOVISM – RAMKOVIST AGENT OF PROPAGANDA! :-)

PP: At that time existed a dilemma for the political party in power. Does it engage in forced drafting of all male citizens and committing genocide upon the shiptars or accepting a mediated truce.

Indigen: Are you now trying to be an apologist for the BUGAROMAN and UCK COALITION “Government” that was about to fall towards the end of 2000? Why would they be committing genocide by driving out or eliminating a few hundred (or few thousand) foreign (and their local appendages) armed TERRORISTS? Is this not done by all sovereign states around the world and is it not what was required by the constitution?

PP: By accepting the second option many Macedonian lives were spared and our country remained intact.

Indigen: And they lost the title deeds to their country! It is easy to “save lives” when you give up what is yours without a fight. Macedonian is de-facto PARTITIONED.

PP: If the first option was chosen we would have annihilated the shiptars but would have fought with the western powers stationed in Kosovo and would have paid the ultimate price.
Which would you have chosen if it were up to you?

Indigen: Pull the other one, Mr Ramkovist Agent/Apologist! In fact Macedonia was given a good chance to eliminate the TERRORISTS but they were inefficient in doing so. And how could a Bugaroman-UCK coalition Government be anything but inefficient in defending Macedonian national interest?

Julie: Why did Macedonians allow the change in the flag?
PP: We didn't allow it. It was early in our independence and the socialist scum in our society betrayed us.
Indigen: Perhaps they (SDSM and Co) voted for it in August of 1992 with a clear plan to give it away (and they were ready to do so in November of the same year) but DPMNE and DP opposition stopped them from doing it then. It was clearly (all but officially) given away in April of 1993 when no flag was raised at the UN and a “Temporary Reference” was accepted for “two months” only but it could not be officially legalised in the MK parliament due to DPMNE MP numbers and opposition. The final deed had to wait further political schemes and machinations before it was enacted in late 1995.

And this cheap “socialist scum” empty slogans of yours are really outdated , worn-out and sound so out of tune that I think you should avoid using them if you want to retain what little credibility you have considering that Petar Goshev, Stojan Andov, Vasil Tupurkovski, Dzingo, Slobodan Chasule and many others were at one time or another allies of the “right-wingers” (who themselves were led by the likes of Dosta Dimovska, a Marxist professor). And ALL of them together have had one main interest in coming to power – enrich themselves, their family members and friends and enjoy lording it over the ordinary people.


PP: While many accepted our flag as is there was a considerable number of idiots who didn't accept it.
Indigen: I am assuming here that you are talking about the original 1992 Flag with the 16-ray Macedonian Sun symbol?

PP: The huge lie that it was temporary helped the cause of those that still felt that they didn't have anything in common with Macedonians but with slavs and serbs.
Indigen: The above is as clear as mud to me and hard to understand what it is you are trying to say.

Julie: Why did MACEDONIANS allow an Albanian criminal that headed terrorist groups in parliament (Ahmeti) ?

PP: We didn't allow it. We were forced into it.
Indigen” Nobody can force you to sign away your title deeds to your country – WE WERE BETRAYED AND SOLD OUT!

PP: At the end of the conflict of low intensity in 2001 Ahmeti was known as a righteous freedom fighter all around the world. While we were known as the repressive majority.
Indigen: Blah, blah, blah....Excuses for CAPITULATION and TREASON and nothing more!

PP: Again the socialist scum in our society brokered it so.
Indigen: Again YOU SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD and a stupid apologist for the current Ramkovist clique in power now. Did Gruevski (as government minister) not vote for the Ramkoven Dogovor, as did most of the DPMNE MPs back in 2001? Is Ivanov not a former socialist?

Julie: Why do MACEDONIANS continue to negotiate our name?

PP: Macedonians aren't negotiating their name. Our spineless politicians are doing it.

Indigen: And why do they keep voting for them then? Why do they not protest and force them to stop?

PP: It is amazing how sterile minds can conjure up so many filthy thoughts.
Indigen: It really is amazing what “sterile” minds (and opportunists bent on self-interest) can conjure up, is it not? :-)

PP: Again the leftist scum of our nation forced this policy into active political life where if anybody spoke against the EU was branded a traitor. Even though EU-scepticism today plays a major role in political life nobody is willing to say it out loud as of yet but give it time, it will happen.

Indigen: Are, in your view, all “leftists” scum and all “rightists” (right-wing politicians/activists) angels? Do you think such simpleton generalisations hold any traction outside the knuckle-heads who sling such ridiculous slogans and their equally politically stupid followers in Mk? IMO, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a “leftist” and a “rightist” politicians in MK as they all are VASSAL looking to enrich themselves at the expense of the common man and Macedonian national sovereignty.


Julie: Why do Macedonians insist on giving up everything in the 21st century just to gain entry into EU (who will give Macedonia a lovely debt to pay off Greece debt ??

PP: We are not giving up anything, let alone everything.
Indigen: This has to be the most RIDICULOUS statement ever!

PP: We had very little on the day of our independence and built ourselves up to almost looking like a prosperous nation.
Indigen: What we are looking like is A NATIONAL LAB RAT IN THE DECONSTRUCTION ROOM undergoing major surgical national modifications and coming out after each operation looking more and more nationally and ethnically disfigured. When all these national and identity IC laboratory experiments are finished, I am afraid Macedonia and Macedonians will not exist as a recognised and recognisable form (entity) for others to see.

PP: The political party in power isn't all that interested in selling out since EU-scepticism is on the rise
Indigen: You could have fooled me and many others! :-)

PP: but again the leftist scum use this as their political propaganda platform and slur everything in our state to anybody willing to listen.
Indigen: Right, are you saying that it is all the fault of SDSM and Co and DPMNE are the “patriotic” angels!? :-)


PP: I personally still hold the view that the government will not change the name despite their political doublespeak

Indigen: I really don't give a shit what you think but stop spreading your worthless BS because there might still be some misguided and uninformed individuals who buy into your absurdities.


Jankovska: Scare tactic? When was the last time you went to Kumanovo, Skopje, don't get me started on Tetovo, Gostivar, Kicevo? You should be scared and every Macedonian should be scared. In Tetovo and Gostivar you cannot find a sign written in Macedonian. Have you passed through Arachinovo? I have no idea what world you live in.

PP: You may not know what world I live in but I know what world you live in. The name of that world is Cowardlandia.
Indigen: I wonder how you would view things if you and your family lived there in Arachinovo? Why don't you buy one of those housed from Tetovo Macedonians and lead us by example of how easy and safe it is living under UCK rule?

PP: BTW, I went window shopping for furniture in Arachinovo just 2 months ago. Last week I went to Tetovo to buy used spare parts for my car and low and behold I’m still alive.
Indigen: I am assuming that you must now be employed by the Ramkovist establishment to spread RAMKOVIST “PROPAGANDA” and you are no longer “protiv”(anything by) them but PROTIV the Macedonian activists, it would seem! :-)

PP: Here's some well intentioned advice for you:
If you find yourself surrounded in darkness all you need to do is to light a candle.
Indigen: Your are a beacon of shining ideological light, there is no doubt about that and your advice would be most appropriate to try if you are in enemy territory (at night) and they are looking to hunt you down.

[George S.]

Indigen you are so tight about how we are sold out & betrayed on everything in macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

Identify those that always distract the topic in a thread or aggressively do not agree to anything and just ignore them. Do not get pulled into their conflict creation attempts.

Everyone,

PP has just asked all of us to ignore him so that he can get on with his work of spreading propaganda rather than opposing it. I don't think we should take his advice. In fact, I think we should keep any eye on him.

[Prolet]

A Spomen Plocha on the Government University in Tetovo saying how we are Slav Macedonians. Za Sramota

http://sitel.com.mk/video/makedonija/navredliva-tabla-osum-godini-stoi-na-drzavniot-univerzitet-vo-tetovo

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

Why haven't they removed it already?

[Niko777]

A Spomen Plocha on the Government University in Tetovo saying how we are Slav Macedonians. Za Sramota

The whole plaque needs to be removed because it is honoring an anti-Macedonian terrorist organization on a Macedonian government building!!!

[julie]

The whole plaque needs to be removed because it is honoring an anti-Macedonian terrorist organization on a Macedonian government building!!!

WTF??
How disgusting

[Prolet]

Julie, They are honoring 4 students who fought for UCK that were killed by our police forces. That plaque has been there for 8 years now.

It says that those students were killed by the Slavo Macedonian Police.

[Niko777]

Julie, They are honoring 4 students who fought for UCK that were killed by our police forces. That plaque has been there for 8 years now.

It says that those students were killed by the Slavo Macedonian Police.

The people who work inside the building are getting paychecks from the Macedonian government, not the UCK or some Albanian group. Therefore they must be loyal to Macedonia and accept the Macedonian version of the 2001 conflict, that is, that anyone who fought for the UCK were enemies of the state! Otherwise, they should ALL be fired from their jobs!

But the sad truth is that the Macedonian government is shaking with fear of the Albanians so that they don't lose their coalition partner DUI. That is why they are bowing down to Albanian demands, so that they don't offend Ahmeti.

[julie]

Ahmeti, a criminal, one person vs the whole Macedonian government, what a joke

[Niko777]

This sign has appeared almost everywhere in Tetovo - buildings, schools, and stadiums. This is treason.