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  • makedonche
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 3242

    #61
    Originally posted by freifrau View Post
    Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
    The issue wasnt solved for 20 years,i can't solve it passing from a forum
    I just wonder if that could be accepted.
    I mean,this seems to me some 90% close to the Macedonian prespective (i may be wrong or not..that's my view) ,as long as Macedonia holds on negotiating.

    I mean,when a country is on negotiating table for 20 years,when all the elected governments do not draw from it,then for me sounds logical,that they want a profitable compromise.
    The government and subsequently the majority of the people who continue voting for them.

    If the prespective was "Macedonia-Macedonians-Macedonian language" with no compromise at all,they would have left the conversation immediately.
    This is the message i get.
    Cold hard facts..

    Or am i wrong ?
    FF
    You are proposing something - that we compromise, because it's been going on for 20 years. Perhaps you can't solve it passing from a forum, but can you at least accept my position and my right to self determination - and the next time you are in discussion with friends/politicians/scholars, point out to them what my position is as a true Macedonian and also point out Greece's position and how wrong it is - maybe if enough people in the right places do this I might actually have my position acknowledged and accepted and be afforded the basic human right to self determination!
    The only thing that could be "accepted" is the unalienable right to self determination.
    As for negotiating for 20 years - there hasn't been any negotiating, there has been Greece's demands and Macedonia's refusal to bow to them!
    As for the government - they are elected to run the country and as such have no authority to change the people's identity - whilst they may have some manipulative resources at their disposal due to being in power at the time and may have influence over people's opinions by various means, they still don't have the people's authority to change their identity!
    The message is "Macedonia - Macedonians - Macedonian Language" and they haven't fully capitulated/compromised, they haven't negotiated anything, proof of this is that the problem Greece has is still there and they are still demanding geographic qualifiers and all sorts of rubbish, they can't leave the conversation because there is still the acronym in current use that needs to be removed! You have the cold hard facts according to you, I have the truth - lets see which prevails!
    On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13675

      #62
      Originally posted by freifrau View Post
      Makedonche,for God's shake, i am not proposing anything!
      Have you been pretending to be Macedonian?

      The only people I have ever seen use 'shake' instead of 'sake' (aside from the fact that the spelling is wrong), are Greeks, mainly because of pronounciation. You are a Greek, are you not? Be honest and don't insult my intelligence, liars are afforded little respect here, and you will not be an exemption.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        #63
        Originally posted by freifrau View Post
        Bratot..what if it is officialy agreed the following:

        Vardar Macedonia -> Macedonians ->Macedonian Language ???
        So, you are Greek, or a traitor.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          #64
          Funnily enough, I watched a SDS advertisement celebrating 20 something years of treacherous existence, and there is a young man stating that he belongs to the party and that SDS is completely against a name change. Yet, most of their politicians, past and present, have indicated otherwise. Even the traitors of Macedonia take you Greeks for a ride.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • freifrau
            Banned
            • Sep 2010
            • 89

            #65
            Originally posted by makedonche View Post
            FF
            You are proposing something - that we compromise, because it's been going on for 20 years.
            nop nop nop.
            I am just telling that there are only 2 ways.
            1 to negotiate.
            2 to leave negotiations.

            If the Macedonian citizens do not wish negotiation they should press their government to leave them once an for all,declare to the world that they would never compromise and that is all.

            I think i made my point clearer.

            Perhaps you can't solve it passing from a forum, but can you at least accept my position and my right to self determination - and the next time you are in discussion with friends/politicians/scholars, point out to them what my position is as a true Macedonian and also point out Greece's position and how wrong it is - maybe if enough people in the right places do this I might actually have my position acknowledged and accepted and be afforded the basic human right to self determination!
            The only thing that could be "accepted" is the unalienable right to self determination.
            I already stated my personal view which does not really differ from what you state.

            I have already participated in such conversations during my stay in the far south Europe..but normally they all ended up with some rakija/tsipuro and laughs.

            As for negotiating for 20 years - there hasn't been any negotiating, there has been Greece's demands and Macedonia's refusal to bow to them!
            When two parts sit on a table and a mediator makes 3 proposals for a new name of a country..that is negotiations.

            Comment

            • freifrau
              Banned
              • Sep 2010
              • 89

              #66
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Have you been pretending to be Macedonian?

              The only people I have ever seen use 'shake' instead of 'sake' (aside from the fact that the spelling is wrong), are Greeks, mainly because of pronounciation. You are a Greek, are you not? Be honest and don't insult my intelligence, liars are afforded little respect here, and you will not be an exemption.
              Have i ever said i am Macedonian ?

              Another told me that i am a Bulgarian and also found my full name..
              (also making some strange logical conclusion freifrau=baron-ness in German.. (what ???!?) and baron was a Bulgarian in another forum....usw... )

              It becomes a bit paranoid...

              PS-Actually in German it could be "schake" lol.

              Comment

              • freifrau
                Banned
                • Sep 2010
                • 89

                #67
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                So, you are Greek, or a traitor.
                I guess you live in a world that only Greeks and traitors exist!

                Comment

                • Bratot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2855

                  #68
                  Guys, lets keep this thread clean, preferably without ad hominem arguments.

                  FreiFrau your positions are little too symptomatic on this issue and having big experience dealing all kinds of propagators we do have a right to suspect when some "German" person gets interested in Macedonian forum focusing stricly on this problem.
                  I also share the view that it's quite imposible to take you for real on this since you did showed specific interest in anti-macedonian solution.
                  The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                  Comment

                  • freifrau
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2010
                    • 89

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                    Guys, lets keep this thread clean, preferably without ad hominem arguments.

                    FreiFrau your positions are little too symptomatic on this issue and having big experience dealing all kinds of propagators we do have a right to suspect when some "German" person gets interested in Macedonian forum focusing stricly on this problem.
                    I also share the view that it's quite imposible to take you for real on this since you did showed specific interest in anti-macedonian solution.
                    Bratot,firstly i am not interested only in politics but also in culture/ethnology but unfortunately there aren't many conversations on that matters in this forum.

                    Second..what is the "anti-macedonian solution" ??
                    As far as i have read your prev. posts ,i believe that at least you and 2-3 other members can read and understand an argumentation.

                    I said that for me there shouldn't be any such a problem and Macedonia,clear and only should be the name.....

                    Is this pro-greek,anti-macedonian,pro-bulgarian,pro-traitor....?

                    On the other hand you must understand you live in a real world.
                    In this world exist UN, USA, EU, NATO ...politicians,politics, economy ,war... usw.
                    I don't have another proposition or whatever...my personal view is krystalclear -I just wonder about the views of the others ,that's why mostly i entered here (and of course to find matterial,link and so for my area of interest ,which i didnt so far)

                    I am really interested in the opinion of the others and that is all.
                    Some people here are really immature -they could be children i think..
                    Some go further more being rude and insulting.
                    Some are extreme nationalists and racists.

                    Do you believe that this is a good advertisement for the Macedonian people?
                    Is this an image you like ?

                    Comment

                    • Rogi
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2343

                      #70
                      Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                      I am really interested in the opinion of the others and that is all.
                      Some people here are really immature -they could be children i think..
                      Some go further more being rude and insulting.
                      Some are extreme nationalists and racists.
                      Yet, those are the only posts that you seem to respond to. My earlier post is neither immature, nor rude and insulting, nor is it based on any extreme nationalism or racism. Perhaps you ignored it because it was well-reasoned?

                      freifrau,

                      Whilst you have just generalised about the people of this forum, and by extension the Macedonian people, you have blatantly ignored my post on page 6 of this thread which I would argue does not fit into the sweeping generalisations you have just made and you have also disregarded what I have clarified for you about the inappropriateness of your inconsiderate use of the word 'compromise' to term something entirely different.
                      Last edited by Rogi; 09-24-2010, 03:47 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #71
                        Originally posted by freifrau View Post
                        Have i ever said i am Macedonian ?
                        I couldn't care what you actually are, just don't pretend to be something you're not.
                        Actually in German it could be "schake"
                        That's not in line with your previous spelling, show some consistency in your lies.
                        I guess you live in a world that only Greeks and traitors exist!
                        You're not the only person in this world, and yes, only a Greek or a traitor would suggest 'Vardar' Macedonia. Try a little harder to cover your tracks you lying imbecile, we weren't born yesterday, but perhaps all of the people in your little demented world were.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Sovius
                          Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 241

                          #72
                          A student of ethnography who is neither interested in the phenomenon of ethnocide or learning more about what it truly means to be and to have been Macedonian? Fascinating. I see a bright future in the fast food industry for you fraulein.

                          Iím putting my money on disgruntled male American teenager of Greek ancestry (Greek in the exclusive modern national and, therefore, artificial sense of the term).

                          Excellent response Bratot.

                          Comment

                          • Bratot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2855

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                            If we systematically complete the mosaic it's becoming relatively easy to reveal that all moves of the international factor are leading to: redefining, decomposing, apartioning ...or demacedonization of our state.

                            The future will show which is the exact intention.

                            According to the facts, the goal is the Macedonian people to lose their state.

                            It is certainly the easiest way to close the "Macedonian question", which still is open by all our neighbors.
                            If there is no Macedonian state, there will be no problems.


                            Thus, the national identity of Macedonian people, its language, culture, history ... will only be inevitable collateral damage - a result of a lost state.



                            The events of 2001 had a significant role in the implementation of these plans.
                            It still seems to us that they were merely a result of the developments in Kosovo and greater Albanian aspirations and nothing more.
                            But it is not: 2001 is a very important stage in the process of demacedonizing the state.
                            Ohrid agreement clearly confirmed that.

                            Throughout this galimatias, Athens is just initiator of this formal process, while the interests in it are significantly wider than the Greek aspirations.

                            In fact, his top carriers are other (very important) international factors:

                            1. First step - recognition of the state.
                            After the breakup of Yugoslavia, the EC Commission estimated that Macedonia has met the conditions for recognition. Brussels ignored it and did not recognize the state. Why?



                            2. The EC in June 1992 (Lisbon), on the recognition of the country has put impossible condition - not to use the name (word) Macedonia!
                            This requirement, in one form or another is the current all the time, but especially today: the state can only be accepted if it is not Macedonian. Why?



                            3. For about 18 months Athens imposed a complete economic blockade, closing the southern border. The north border no longer worked because of the UN sanctions on Yugoslavia. We were left with no rail links with the world. Nobody reacted although it was contrary to the provisions of GATT (Article 5) that internationally guaranteed free transit of (our) goods (by Greece). It took almost two years, which is enough to destroy even much stronger country than ours. The European court dismissed the case pretending that the blockade never happened. Why?
                            4.
                            UN, ignoring its own constitution (Charter) did not recognized the existence of a Macedonian state, and questioned its name.
                            Promise to solve the "problem" in a few months was a pure deceit to swallow the injustice.
                            They must have been knowing that their plan was not going to be achieved quickly.




                            5. The Interim Agreement, signed in 1995 and deposited at the UN, was in 75 % in favor of Greece, but we got the guarantee clause that will be not block in our Euro-Atlantic integration.
                            This clause, however, proved to be an obstacle in realization of their plans.
                            The eventual entry into NATO and the EU, under the provisional reference, would significantly diminish the chances to take off the character of the Macedonian state.
                            After he(they) realized that that this obligation in the IA will complicate the situation, Nimetz said publicly that the agreement no longer applies!
                            Why for if not for this clause, which prevents any blockage of our integration into NATO and the EU, and now it is their major triumph card against our country?

                            We have witnessed many statements where it's clearly underlined to us: "If you want to enter EU/NATO you have to change your name!"

                            The cards have been slowly opened and the international factor is now without masks: playing with open threats and blackmails.

                            Their position is accurate: either the state will not be Macedonian, or no membership in NATO and the EU.
                            I just wanted to maintain the purpose of this thread against the erosive nature of FF posts.

                            Here is the specific role of EU.
                            Last edited by Bratot; 09-27-2010, 02:05 AM.
                            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                            Comment

                            • Bratot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2855

                              #74
                              До самитот во Лисабон во ноември, НАТО нема да може да реши ниту еден од сегашните стратешки цели, Авганистан, односите со Русија и односите САД - ЕУ, но може да го затвори случајот Македонија, смета аналитичарот на Центарот за трансатлански релации на универзитетот Џон Хопкинс, Курт Вокер, кој до мај минатата година беше амбасадор на САД ВО НАТО.

                              Можеме да направиме прогрес за името и да ја вратиме Македонија назад на колосекот за членство во НАТО и ЕУ. Со тоа би ја поддржале движечката сила во регионот. Прво што би направил би ја ставил Македонија на агендата на НАТО самитот во ноември во Лисабон и ласерски прецизно би се фокусирал на решавање на проблемот со името“, изјави Вокер во дебатата по извештајот на центар за стратешки и меѓународни истражувања во Вашингтон за состојбата во западно-балканскиот регион.





                              "We can make progress on the name and restore Macedonia back on track for membership in NATO and the EU. With that we would support the driving force in the region. First I would do I would put Macedonia on the agenda of the NATO summit in November in Lisbon and with laser precision I would focus on resolving the name issue" - said Walker in the debate on the report by the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington for the west -Balkan region.

                              Another one underlining the interest in USA to push for a solution within next months.
                              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                              Comment

                              • Bratot
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2855

                                #75
                                With the help of Mango we found about another marginalized "opinion maker" - JANUSZ BUGAJSKI who based his 'career' on his Anti-Russian articles.

                                Bugajski is a regular contributor to various U.S. and European newspapers and journals. His recent books include America’s New European Allies (Nova, 2009); Expanding Eurasia: Russia’s European Ambitions (CSIS, 2008); Atlantic Bridges: America’s New European Allies, with Ilona Teleki (Rowman & Littlefield, 2007), Cold Peace: Russia’s New Imperialism (Praeger, 2004), and Political Parties of Eastern Europe: A Guide to Politics in the Post-Communist Era (M.E. Sharpe, 2002).
                                It seem he got frustrated because nobody cares about his opinion on Russia, so he tries to make a "come back" with serving the Greek propaganda about Macedonia.

                                He is working in the "Center for Strategic and International Studies":

                                At a time of new global opportunities and challenges, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) provides strategic insights and policy solutions to decisionmakers in government, international institutions, the private sector, and civil society. A bipartisan, nonprofit organization headquartered in Washington, DC, CSIS conducts research and analysis and develops policy initiatives that look into the future and anticipate change.
                                is another lobbying agency to deliver ordered opinions.

                                Lets recognize the well known "arguments" of the Greek propaganda machinery:

                                1.

                                2.


                                This fool have even found a space to repeat his anti-Russian frustration in between his ordered propaganda on the bottom of this page.

                                3.




                                The MARKERS of the well known Greek propaganda:

                                1. Slavic Macedonian - using the "Slavic" component to determine another identity for Macedonians
                                2. Albanian threat - as a tool to intimidate Macedonian stability and future with some violent scenario
                                3. Claiming the Greek exclusivity on the ancient Macedonian history
                                4. Territorial claims - as the biggest Greek fear
                                5. Geographycal name as suggestions for the name of Macedonia - 100% in hand with the Greek demands
                                6. Recognizing the Macedonian identity as "Slavic Macedonian" instead of Macedonian which clearly serve the purpose to eradicate Macedonian ethnic identity.
                                7. The economical stagnation - of course the solution to secure the progress by selling our name.


                                This fool openly advocate for Greece, so far that he uses the economical bankrupcy of Greece as an argument why the pressure on Athens should not be a option in these difficult times for their Government!
                                Last edited by Bratot; 09-28-2010, 07:40 AM.
                                The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                                Comment

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