Macedonian National Anthem

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    Macedonian National Anthem

    Prolet, in the Macedonian national anthem, there is mention made of the Krushevo Republic, but the president of that republic, Nikola Karev, is nowhere mentioned. Do you know why? Some sellout disgraces to our nation that were in power during and after WWII did their job well for the Communists.

    They should make a spomenik of Karev in attack stance with a rifle in hand, and put it up in Sveti Nikole next to that dog called Kolishevski (with the rifle obviously aimed at the latter).
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
  • aleksandrov
    Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 558

    #2
    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    Prolet, in the Macedonian national anthem, there is mention made of the Krushevo Republic, but the president of that republic, Nikola Karev, is nowhere mentioned. Do you know why? Some sellout disgraces to our nation that were in power during and after WWII did their job well for the Communists....
    With respect to all the Ilinden fighters from Krushevo, I don't think it's appropriate for Krushevo or any town, village or province to be specifically mentioned in the Macedonian NATIONAL anthem, unless you mention all the towns, villages and provinces where Macedonians have taken part in an insurrection.

    For the record, the anthem that the Macedonian partizans used in World War II was "Izgrej Zora na Slobodata (Svobodata)". That was the official anthem used at the first Antifascist Assembly for the People's Liberation of Macedonia ('ASNOM'), on 2 August 1944 ( see http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Антифашистичко_Собрание_за_Народно_Ослободување_на _Македонија ). It was later rejected under Kolishevski's leadership, allegedly on the grounds that it was "Bulgarian", but I see nothing Bulgarian about it at all. Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does, but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.

    "Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated. "Denes Nad Makedonija" misleadingly states that Macedonia has already been liberated i.e. that it LIVES FREE. "Izgrej Zora" is a more militant anthem, which came about as a march for a war of liberation. The true reason for its abolition may be that, after WWII, it was associated with those fighters who wanted to unify the Egej, Pirin and Vardar regions of Macedonia as a single republic (under a Balkan or Yugoslav Federation).

    Here's a modern recording of Izgrej Zora:

    YouTube - Зора на Свободата - Македонски Марш
    Last edited by aleksandrov; 05-03-2010, 07:51 AM.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

    https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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    • Bill77
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2009
      • 4545

      #3
      i'd vote for this as a National anthem. na ke puknat Grcite

      YouTube - Suzana Spasovska - Alexandar Car Makedonski

      sory, lets get back on topic.
      Last edited by Bill77; 05-03-2010, 08:25 AM.
      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

      Comment

      • aleksandrov
        Member
        • Feb 2010
        • 558

        #4
        Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
        ...
        For the record, the anthem that the Macedonian partizans used in World War II was "Izgrej Zora na Slobodata (Svobodata)". That was the official anthem used at the first Antifascist Assembly for the People's Liberation of Macedonia ('ASNOM'), on 2 August 1944 ( see http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Антифашистичко_Собрание_за_Народно_Ослободување_на _Македонија ). It was later rejected under Kolishevski's leadership, allegedly on the grounds that it was "Bulgarian", but I see nothing Bulgarian about it at all. Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does, but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.

        "Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated. "Denes Nad Makedonija" misleadingly states that Macedonia has already been liberated i.e. that it LIVES FREE. "Izgrej Zora" is a more militant anthem, which came about as a march for a war of liberation. The true reason for its abolition may be that, after WWII, it was associated with those fighters who wanted to unify the Egej, Pirin and Vardar regions of Macedonia as a single republic (under a Balkan or Yugoslav Federation).

        Here's a modern recording of Izgrej Zora:

        YouTube - Зора на Свободата - Македонски Марш
        Here is the text in the contemporary Macedonian literary language:

        ИЗГРЕЈ ЗОРА НА СЛОБОДАТА

        Изгреј зора на слободата
        Зора на вечната борба
        Изгреј во душите и во срцата
        На сите робови по светот!

        Тирани чудо ќе направиме
        Ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
        Со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
        И пак ќе се ослободиме!

        Јунаци смели пак развија
        Окрвавени знамиња
        Комити нови зашетаа
        Низ македонската земја!

        Тирани чудо ќе направиме
        Ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
        Со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
        И пак ќе се ослободиме!

        Ечат шуми, полиња, планини
        Од бојни песни и Ура
        Одат борците – великани
        Напред, готови за борба!

        Тирани чудо ќе направиме
        ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
        со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
        и пак ќе се ослободиме!

        Нас ништо веќе не ќе не исплаши
        И така живееме ден за ден
        Свети се горите наши
        Во нив слободни ќе умреме!

        Тирани чудо ќе направиме
        ние туѓо ропство не трпиме
        со јуначка крв ќе ве удавиме
        и пак ќе се ослободиме!
        All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

        https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          #5
          Originally posted by ''Aleksandrov"
          Yes, it (or at least the version of it that we know today) was written in a pre-Koneski Macedonian dialect that seems closer to today's official Bulgarian language than the Kolishevski version of the Macedonian literary language does......
          Is it Koneski's or Kolishevski's version of a Macedonian literary language?
          ..........but that doesn't make it any more 'Bulgarian' than the dialects used by Delchev, Gruev or even Misirkov and the Macedonians in Pirin and Egej are 'Bulgarian'.
          I'm not sure that people in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol used words such as svoboda instead of sloboda, or shte instead of kje, checking the works of the Miladinovci and Shapkarev would be a good confirmation. It still looks Macedonian, I wouldn't consider it 'Bulgarian' either. Those words though, together with vsicki and iz aren't common in many Macedonian dialects, whereas the form of Macedonian used by Misirkov is much more common to other Macedonian dialects.
          "Izgrej Zora" is a more appropriate anthem for a Macedonian nation that is still to be liberated.
          I agree, and it should be considered, so long as it is written in a form or dialect more common to all of the Macedonian dialects (including those of the Macedonian parts in neighbouring states).
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Mastika
            Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 503

            #6
            If any song is to be the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia then it must be written in the literary language and use official terminology, not a dialect.

            Comment

            • aleksandrov
              Member
              • Feb 2010
              • 558

              #7
              Originally posted by Mastika View Post
              If any song is to be the national anthem of the Republic of Macedonia then it must be written in the literary language and use official terminology, not a dialect.
              And what would that official literary language have been in the 1920s, when Izgrej Zora was written?
              All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

              https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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              • aleksandrov
                Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 558

                #8
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                Is it Koneski's or Kolishevski's version of a Macedonian literary language?
                I don't think that Kolishevski is known for any linguistic endeavors. Sure, he had an influence over the general direction Koneski had to take (as far away from "Bulgarian" as possible), but there is nobody that has had more formal influence on the modern Macedonian literary language than Koneski.

                I'm not sure that people in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol used words such as svoboda instead of sloboda, or shte instead of kje,..

                checking the works of the Miladinovci and Shapkarev would be a good confirmation.
                Miladinovci were from Ohrid and Shapkarev from Struga.

                'Svoboda' can be found in various VMRO documents, on revolutionary flags, badges and other artifacts.

                I am not sure whether and to what extent "shte" was used in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol, but I do recall from my studies of the history of the Macedonian language in the 1990s that it has had a presence in various Macedonian dialects - more so in the early part of the 20th century than today.

                In any case, there is no doubt that the formal Bulgarian literary language had substantial influence on how Macedonians wrote in the early 20th century, given that no formal Macedonian literary language was taught at the time and that most of the Macedonian revolutionaries and intellectuals from the Ilinden period were educated in Exarchate schools. However, we should not forget that the Bulgarian language itself originates from the medieval Macedonian literary language taught by Naum and Kliment.

                It still looks Macedonian, I wouldn't consider it 'Bulgarian' either. Those words though, together with vsicki and iz aren't common in many Macedonian dialects, whereas the form of Macedonian used by Misirkov is much more of common to other Macedonian dialects.
                In trying to develop a new Macedonian literary language, Misirkov didn't quite focus on elements that were most common throughout Macedonia, but on 'central' Macedonian dialects and on those elements that were as far from Bulgarian (and to a lesser extent Serbian) as possible. Although that may have served the purpose of reducing Bulgarian and Serbian political influences at the time, I am not comfortable with relinquishing shared elements of Macedonian dialects to Bulgarian and Serbian, given that both of those languages have Macedonian literary origins.

                I agree, and it should be considered, so long as it is written in a form or dialect more common to all of the Macedonian dialects (including those of the Macedonian parts in neighbouring states).
                I would leave any analysis of the extent to which the text of Izgrej Zora is common to 'all' Macedonian dialects to dedicated linguists. However, I note that all of the Macedonian dialects have evolved over the past 100 years, with direct and indirect influences from the formal Bulgarian, Serbian and Macedonian literary languages, all of which are relatively new in their present forms.
                All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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                • Mastika
                  Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 503

                  #9
                  Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
                  And what would that official literary language have been in the 1920s, when Izgrej Zora was written?
                  It was sung in different dialects by different people around Macedonia. If a song is to be national anthem then it must be in the literary language.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Aleksandrov
                    Miladinovci were from Ohrid and Shapkarev from Struga.
                    I don't believe my response indicated that I was ignorant of those facts, instead, I was making reference to their works that contain information regarding dialects from all over Macedonia, including the home villages of Delcev (Kukush), Gruev (Smilevo) and Misirkov (Postol).
                    'Svoboda' can be found in various VMRO documents, on revolutionary flags, badges and other artifacts.
                    I would say that most, if not all of those documents, flags, etc come after the Exarchate was created and gained influence in Macedonia's religious and educational institutions.
                    I am not sure whether and to what extent "shte" was used in Kukush, Smilevo or Postol, but I do recall from my studies of the history of the Macedonian language in the 1990s that it has had a presence in various Macedonian dialects - more so in the early part of the 20th century than today.
                    I don't doubt it, but it would only be a small handful of dialects found in the peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia. Kje (or ke) is the norm in the overwhelming majority of Macedonian dialects.
                    However, we should not forget that the Bulgarian language itself originates from the medieval Macedonian literary language taught by Naum and Kliment.
                    I agree completely.
                    In trying to develop a new Macedonian literary language, Misirkov didn't quite focus on elements that were most common throughout Macedonia, but on 'central' Macedonian dialects and on those elements that were as far from Bulgarian (and to a lesser extent Serbian) as possible. Although that may have served the purpose of reducing Bulgarian and Serbian political influences at the time, I am not comfortable with relinquishing shared elements of Macedonian dialects to Bulgarian and Serbian, given that both of those languages have Macedonian literary origins.
                    I don't think Misirkov was too far off the mark, but I agree with you where it concerns the unnecessary exclusion of certain elements in our language for the sake of not appearing close to Bulgarian and Serbian.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Prolet
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 5241

                      #11
                      SOM, Maknews has often criticized us in the past for not speaking our language properly, he uses words like Oushche and he claims that his grand father taught him how to speak the original language. The word Vsicko was mentioned above, i know Macedonians from Pirinska Makedonija seem to use that word i heard Ivan Gargavelov say it once maybe TM can give us a little more feedback since he has links to Pirinska Makedonija.
                      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                      Comment

                      • aleksandrov
                        Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 558

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mastika View Post
                        It was sung in different dialects by different people around Macedonia. If a song is to be national anthem then it must be in the literary language.
                        If Kolishevski & Co. didn't decide to give it away to the Bulgarians and Bugaromani 64 years ago, it would probably have been adapted to the modern Macedonian literary language.
                        All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                        https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15659

                          #13
                          vsichko is quite common in my local dialect.
                          When I have Macedonians from the Republic telling me they think I speak some kind of Bulgarian ... I don't know whether to laugh, cry or beat the shit out of them. Such ignorance.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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                          • aleksandrov
                            Member
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 558

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            I don't believe my response indicated that I was ignorant of those facts, instead, I was making reference to their works that contain information regarding dialects from all over Macedonia, including the home villages of Delcev (Kukush), Gruev (Smilevo) and Misirkov (Postol).
                            Sorry, I didn't think of that possibility when I read your original post. In any case, I am not sure how extensive the Miladinovci and Shapkarev were in their research of Macedonian dialects. I suppose it's worth looking into.

                            I would say that most, if not all of those documents, flags, etc come after the Exarchate was created and gained influence in Macedonia's religious and educational institutions.
                            I would have to check whether 'svoboda' was used in the Kresna Uprising period, when the Exarchate influence wasn't so strong. In any case, we should always keep in mind that a key reason why the Exarchate was able to influence Macedonians more than the Serbian and Greek patriarchies was that the language it used was very close to the Macedonian dialects. And that should be of no surprise if you look at the extent to which Macedonian (by ancestry) intellectuals participated in the creation of the modern Bulgarian state and the fact that the language used by the Exarchate was meant to be a development of what Kliment and Naum taught in Ohrid.

                            I don't doubt it, but it would only be a small handful of dialects found in the peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia. Kje (or ke) is the norm in the overwhelming majority of Macedonian dialects.
                            You may be right, but a reference to some empirical research could clear things up.

                            What is critical to note in the context of this anthem and the literary language is that ќ (for "kj') is one of the modern, post-WWII Macedonian introductions to the Cyrillic alphabet. Before that, this standard Cyrillic letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Щ (pronounced as "scha" in Cyrillic generally or "shta" in modern Bulgarian) was used in written, albeit not codified, Macedonian. The exclusion of that letter from the Macedonian Cyrillic alphabet may well have had an influence on how Macedonian dialects subsequently evolved.

                            I know a lot of people from the Prilep and Struga regions who use 'che' ('че'), which is kind of between "kje" and "sche". Some dialects in north-western Macedonia use "kja", which is somewhere between "kje" and "scha".

                            At a more general level, let's not forget that this anthem was used by Macedonian partisans and ASNOM delegates who fought against Bulgarian domination and for a Macedonian national state within the borders of Yugoslavia, after almost four decades of Serbian education and Bulgarian Exarchate absence. The majority of them were not from peripheral areas of eastern Macedonia, yet it doesn't appear to have sounded foreign to them.
                            Last edited by aleksandrov; 05-10-2010, 07:48 PM.
                            All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

                            https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

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                            • Simply Macedonian
                              Junior Member
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 30

                              #15
                              Macedonian National Anthem

                              In addition to Gotse Delchev, Pitu Guli, Dame Gruev and Jane Sandanski, there should be a line mentioning, Alexander, Filip, Samuil, and Kiril and Metodij.
                              I know it would be hard to pass with the Albanian minority, who seem to control everything in the Macedonian parliament, the pro-Greek SDSM, and the pro-Greek west...but it's food for thought.

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