Contingency policy for sovereignty

[Buktop]

I have been asking these questions of several people concerning a hypothetical situation based on actual facts for almost about a year and a half but have never really recieved an intelligent response. I am very curious of peoples thoughts.

How do we intend to maintain the Human Rights and sovereignty of Macedonians with an annual GDP of about $17 Billion, an unemployment rate of 35-40%,no alternative inexpensive trade routes, an unfinished pipeline (corridor 8), an unfinished cargo airport, heavy rail lines that are not maintained, no alternative effective energy options (other than low grade coal which polluted Macedonia terribly during the 94-95 embargo), no actual allied countries (other than Turkey, who wouldn't be able to help us if we were sanctioned by the IMF, World Bank or UN) etc etc...? Especially considering that around 60% of Macedonia's gas/oil imports come through Greece, and around 60% of Macedonian exports leave through Greece.

Given these economic factors still being incomplete, should the Macedonian government decide to overthrow the Interim Accord and Ohrid Framework, what would prevent further capitulization and harm to the Macedonian people should another Albanian rebellion and another Greek blockade occur as a result?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would like to see your answers to those questions.

Namely, how does Macedonia go about prevailing in this situation with our dignity and integrity completely intact, what are the steps required, how do we go about them, what will be the end result if we follow such a path, and how will these means achieve our desired end?

What are you willing to accept?

[Bill77]

I have been asking these questions of several people concerning a hypothetical situation based on actual facts for almost about a year and a half but have never really recieved an intelligent response. I am very curious of peoples thoughts.

How do we intend to maintain the Human Rights and sovereignty of Macedonians with an annual GDP of about $17 Billion, an unemployment rate of 35-40%,no alternative inexpensive trade routes, an unfinished pipeline (corridor 8), an unfinished cargo airport, heavy rail lines that are not maintained, no alternative effective energy options (other than low grade coal which polluted Macedonia terribly during the 94-95 embargo), no actual allied countries (other than Turkey, who wouldn't be able to help us if we were sanctioned by the IMF, World Bank or UN) etc etc...? Especially considering that around 60% of Macedonia's gas/oil imports come through Greece, and around 60% of Macedonian exports leave through Greece.

Given these economic factors still being incomplete, should the Macedonian government decide to overthrow the Interim Accord and Ohrid Framework, what would prevent further capitulization and harm to the Macedonian people should another Albanian rebellion and another Greek blockade occur as a result?

Buktop, you have been asking these questions of several people concerning a hypothetical situation based on actual facts for almost about a year and a half but have never really recieved an intelligent response. Peoples thoughts are obviously not satisfying your curiosity.

So please, give us your thoughts on how we deal with the situation, mainly concerning the Accord and Ohrid Framework. But don't try to influence us with your doom and gloom. Our enemies use the same tactics. I am sure every Nation has its problems.

[Risto the Great]

Buktop, why is the IMF almost begging Macedonia to take loans from them? You make it sound like it would be a disaster if Macedonia could not hock itself up to the eyeballs. Haven't you guys learned your lesson about debt yet?

You talk about Macedonia's reliance on Greece. Greece has been belligerent and vindictive in its relations with Macedonia. I think it would be an excellent idea to be forced into making more fruitful business relationships with alternative nations.

We have already lost sovereignty for Macedonians. The Americans (amongst others) insisted we give it up. There is no point working with your hypotheticals because the reality is far worse than it appears you are able to comprehend.

Imagine if Macedonia had a lobby group in ... say ... Washington who could influence policy that helps regain sovereignty for Macedonia. Wouldn't that be a smart method to show the world how a country can refuse to be economically and politically hijacked.

The 2 major threats you identified were a Greek blockade and an ethnic Albanian rebellion. These are not threats. The Greek blockade will never happen now that Greece is broke and OWNED by the EU. The ethnic Albanians will never ever try acts of terrorism in Macedonia again. It would be fatal for them and a perfect excuse for Macedonia to deal with terrorists in a way that is considered normal in your part of the world.

[Bill77]

The ethnic Albanians will never ever try acts of terrorism in Macedonia again. It would be fatal for them and a perfect excuse for Macedonia to deal with terrorists in a way that is considered normal in your part of the world.

Buktop might think of them as Freedom fighters just like the US Gov did. JK Buktop.

[Risto the Great]

Buktop might think of them as Freedom fighters just like the US Gov did. JK Buktop.

No, the US called them terrorists until they became useful for their agenda in the Balkans. .... THEN they became Freedom Fighters.

[Pelister]

For crying out loud.

What does the concept of soveriegnty have to do with our GDP or the village in the hills without proper water ? Thats a local issue, an issue for council.

Our existence and our rights to exist, are not going to depend on a economic number, or whether a village has proper water or not or the current state of our airport.

It currently depends on a few idiots in government (and in the diaspora), who can extinguish our historical and ethnic identity past, present and future - and our political soveriegnty - at the stroke of a pen.

It won't matter what our airport looks like then, or who we "claim" to be.

Negotiating our identity can potentially wipe us off the map, politically, historically, ideologically ... given what our enemies are saying about us - but negotiating will not improve the standard of living in the village of Grekai. In any case in such a moutainous and remote village as Grekai, how can one actually measure the aesthetic beuaty and quality of the location ?? Most fkers in the suburbs of Paris would think it paradise.

[Buktop]

I would like to see your answers to those questions.

Namely, how does Macedonia go about prevailing in this situation with our dignity and integrity completely intact, what are the steps required, how do we go about them, what will be the end result if we follow such a path, and how will these means achieve our desired end?

What are you willing to accept?

My answers are in the questions, I am an Economist, that is why I base my positions on the power of Macedonia on economic self sufficiency and the reduced reliance on Greece as a beneficial policy in preventing any retaliation for assuming our rights.

[Buktop]

Buktop, you have been asking these questions of several people concerning a hypothetical situation based on actual facts for almost about a year and a half but have never really recieved an intelligent response. Peoples thoughts are obviously not satisfying your curiosity.

So please, give us your thoughts on how we deal with the situation, mainly concerning the Accord and Ohrid Framework. But don't try to influence us with your doom and gloom. Our enemies use the same tactics. I am sure every Nation has its problems.

Intelligent responses being actual responses, as of yet, no one has been able to answer these questions.

For the second part see the post above.

[Buktop]

Buktop, why is the IMF almost begging Macedonia to take loans from them? You make it sound like it would be a disaster if Macedonia could not hock itself up to the eyeballs. Haven't you guys learned your lesson about debt yet?

You talk about Macedonia's reliance on Greece. Greece has been belligerent and vindictive in its relations with Macedonia. I think it would be an excellent idea to be forced into making more fruitful business relationships with alternative nations.

We have already lost sovereignty for Macedonians. The Americans (amongst others) insisted we give it up. There is no point working with your hypotheticals because the reality is far worse than it appears you are able to comprehend.

Imagine if Macedonia had a lobby group in ... say ... Washington who could influence policy that helps regain sovereignty for Macedonia. Wouldn't that be a smart method to show the world how a country can refuse to be economically and politically hijacked.

The 2 major threats you identified were a Greek blockade and an ethnic Albanian rebellion. These are not threats. The Greek blockade will never happen now that Greece is broke and OWNED by the EU. The ethnic Albanians will never ever try acts of terrorism in Macedonia again. It would be fatal for them and a perfect excuse for Macedonia to deal with terrorists in a way that is considered normal in your part of the world.

My position on debt concerns the leverage ratios of the republic of Macedonia, for any accountant out there, they know what leverage is.

Regardless of the actions of Greece the Macedonia still is dependent on the port of Solun as a means of exports and imports, therefor they can cripple us with a blockade unless this dependence is decreased or completely erased. For anyone who understands GDP and National economies you know that exports and import ratios are vital for GDP growth. And this is why I point out that the alternative trade routes are, as of yet, undeveloped.

I know the reality, it is my job to know reality as an economist. It seems to be something that you cannot grasp in terms of Macedonia's economic, political and legal shortcomings.

Would be nice, too bad it takes millions of dollars to lobby a country such as the US, perhaps a possibility should we finish the projects I pointed out in my questions.

If you truly believe that a blockade and a rebellion are not possible then you need to come to terms with reality.

[Buktop]

For crying out loud.

What does the concept of soveriegnty have to do with our GDP or the village in the hills without proper water ? Thats a local issue, an issue for council.

Our existence and our rights to exist, are not going to depend on a economic number, or whether a village has proper water or not or the current state of our airport.

It currently depends on a few idiots in government (and in the diaspora), who can extinguish our historical and ethnic identity past, present and future - and our political soveriegnty - at the stroke of a pen.

It won't matter what our airport looks like then, or who we "claim" to be.

Negotiating our identity can potentially wipe us off the map, politically, historically, ideologically ... given what our enemies are saying about us - but negotiating will not improve the standard of living in the village of Grekai. In any case in such a moutainous and remote village as Grekai, how can one actually measure the aesthetic beuaty and quality of the location ?? Most fkers in the suburbs of Paris would think it paradise.

GDP has everything to do with maintaining sovereignty. As you know, money talks, bullshit walks.

A strong economy enables us to maintain our rights.

You obviously don't understand what it takes to maintain a country, let alone their sovereignty and human rights.

Why do you think this is still an issue between us and Greeks/Bulgarians?

[Buktop]

And as I figured, nobody is able to answer the questions. I am asking straight forward questions, I don't understand why people can't answer them.

[Silver]

I have been asking these questions of several people concerning a hypothetical situation based on actual facts for almost about a year and a half but have never really recieved an intelligent response. I am very curious of peoples thoughts.

How do we intend to maintain the Human Rights and sovereignty of Macedonians with an annual GDP of about $17 Billion, an unemployment rate of 35-40%,no alternative inexpensive trade routes, an unfinished pipeline (corridor 8), an unfinished cargo airport, heavy rail lines that are not maintained, no alternative effective energy options (other than low grade coal which polluted Macedonia terribly during the 94-95 embargo), no actual allied countries (other than Turkey, who wouldn't be able to help us if we were sanctioned by the IMF, World Bank or UN) etc etc...? Especially considering that around 60% of Macedonia's gas/oil imports come through Greece, and around 60% of Macedonian exports leave through Greece.

Given these economic factors still being incomplete, should the Macedonian government decide to overthrow the Interim Accord and Ohrid Framework, what would prevent further capitulization and harm to the Macedonian people should another Albanian rebellion and another Greek blockade occur as a result?

With such a hopeless doom & gloom picture that you like to paint Mr. Buktop, by any chance would your solution be for the government to go over to it's money tree and pick off as much as it needs to solve all it's problems immediately? Perhaps we should be more like 'Greece' or the communists or the Obama Administration and just print money whenever it's needed? Haven't we been down that road already? Or will the holy EU bail us out and put Macedonia on permanent welfare thus solving all of its problems for all time? Vive Le France!

Well I beg to differ. Forget the doom and gloom, Macedonia has an awful lot going for it. I've been through Switzerland, Italy, Austria as well as ¾ of Macedonia and nothing compares to the beauty and mystery of Macedonia. No wonder the Bulgars are so jealous. The French don't want to compete with Macedonian wine and grapes. Agriculturally, it is among the most productive soil in the world. Its full of rich minerals with quaint towns and villages, beautiful lakes and exquisite scenery not to mention the greatest people and oldest culture on earth.

Indeed, I admit what Macedonia lacks Mr. Buktop is a solid infrastructure which is crucial for doing business and creating wealth, which in turn is the only way a country can maintain a solid infrastructure in the first place. It's a tough predicament yes, and one that takes time to solve but as sure as the sun will rise in Ohrid tomorrow it will be solved, it just takes time. Slowly business will develop and the economy will begin to prosper. Then there will be hospitals, schools road repair and maybe even the first golf coarse! The most important thing for the Macedonian people now is not to allow anyone to change our history, our name and our heritage just to satisfy those who hate us and those who preach the doom and gloom like yourself, UMD and Dzog The Shepherd. And they won't!

The Macedonian people have been through a lot in their illustrious history. Ever since the Romans invaded and divided our land into cantons we Macedonians have been struggling for freedom. What's another ten or twenty years or even another generation from now?

You mentioned and quite emphatically I might add, on another thread how great Bulgaria has been doing since it joined the EU. I'm sure it's doing as well as always at least when it comes to oppressing it's ethnic Macedonians. I'm sure its carrying on as vigorously and even more efficiently than prior to joining the holy EU. There's one thing which Macedonians really need to consider however in addition to the many reasons why the EU could wait if in fact we ever do join. I personally hope not and would rather we assert ourselves on our own but that's besides the point. Given how much 'Greece' enjoys racking up the debt meter Mr. Buktop, and the EU keeps bailing them out, why then should Macedonia want to join this club when it will be forced to pay for the institutions and policies of the EU? If the EU wants to bail out the 'Greeks' every ten years then why would we want to contribute to someone or something bent on our complete and total destruction?

And one last thing I would like to mention about the state of affairs in Macedonia. I speak to my relatives there regularily on Skype and Facebook etc. There is no doom and gloom coming from there Mr. Buktop. In fact, I envy their spirit and happiness very much.

[Risto the Great]

If you truly believe that a blockade and a rebellion are not possible then you need to come to terms with reality.

A blockade is not possible and simply will not happen.
A rebellion would be fatal for the ethnic Albanians on numerous levels.

You need to take an "optimism pill".

My position on debt concerns the leverage ratios of the republic of Macedonia

And true to form, an economist who said a whole lot of nothing. Your position on debt was not mentioned, tell us precisely how much debt you feel comfortable with.

You did suggest Bulgaria has gained tremendously from joining the EU. I suggest Bulgaria gained tremendously in justifying its entry into the EU and that it has done very little in comparison since. So little that it is still comparable to Macedonia (portless and all).

And as I figured, nobody is able to answer the questions. I am asking straight forward questions, I don't understand why people can't answer them.

At this point I suppose we are supposed to say, yes, Macedonia should change its name, become a federation and do whatever it takes to join NATO and the EU. I know you have already advocated Macedonia prostitute itself in this fashion, but most Macedonians do not stand for it. Get real.

[makedonche]

[QUOTE = Buktop; 33,584] My answers are in the questions, I am an Economist, that is why I base my positions on the power of Macedonia on economic self sufficiency and the reduced reliance on Greece as a beneficial policy in preventing any retaliation for assuming our rights. [/ QUOTE]

As an economist you would be in a very good position to provide a professional opinion to the questions you have asked. As a layman I eagerly await your opinion as to the solution to the Macedonian economic difficulties. Please don't redirect this request, but answer it in the most accurate way you can, I am unable/incapable of answering your questions but am critically keen to read your answers/opinions!