Pasko Kuzman promoting "Macedonian-Hellenistic period" - anti-Macedonian propaganda?

[indigen]

Macedonistic era.

It's good to be nationalist.

Nationalist = Patriot!

Definition of Nationalist:
n.
1. One who advocates national unity and independence; -- as, for example, one of a party favoring Irish independence before 1918.
[1913 Webster +PJC]

Definition of Patriot:
n.
One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.

Antonyms: patriot
Home > Library > Literature & Language > Antonyms
n
Definition: person who loves his country
Antonyms: traitor

Don't concern yourself about what Greeks think of us, they are inferrior.

Yes, OUR REAL PREDCI (ancestors) were the CONQUERORS (YOKE AROUND THE NECK) of the perceived ancestors of the Roman leftovers in modern "Elliniki Dimokratia", thus superior in military and state craft, amongst other achievements!

[TrueMacedonian]

Here is the origin of Hellenistic - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1088

It's meaning was something totally different in the 17th century from what some today think or feels that it is. I don't understand why we feel a need to label things today using mis-leading terminology? Scholars have really created a confusing picture to some and created a utopia (our southern neighbors) for others concerning terminologies like this. It's baseless and leads to dis-information. I know where both RTG and Indigen are coming from. I personally feel that "Alexander Era" would suffice.

[indigen]

Indigen, I don't think Pasko Kuzman has a deliberate intent to spread anti-Macedonian propaganda, if he wrote 'Macedonian-Hellenistic period' he may have intended to highlight the significance of both components. He could have phrased it a little differently, but your thread title can be perceived as misleading.

There can be NO EXCUSE for any Macedonian (especially for someone "perceived" as a Macedonian patriot) to present Ancient Macedonian heritage as anything but Macedonian - NO IFS, NO BUTS!

The Macedonian state was based on predominantly native stock (native population), very different to the other Macedonian successor kingdoms/states, and it is anti-Macedonian to deny its Macedonian essence in naming designations/classifications! Furthermore, it has been argued that the Romans spread and assimilated more "Hellenic" culture than anyone else before and yet their classification remains intact - Roman Empire/Roman Era/Roman Period!

As there are no 'periods' popularly referred to as 'Romanistic' or 'Latinistic' in Europe, despite the widespread use of Latin in a similar manner and capacity as Koine, 'Hellenistic' is invalid if referred to as a 'period'. I therefore would agree that the 'Macedonian period' is a sufficient description on par with the 'Roman period', as the successor kingdoms (including Macedonia itself) that formed after the break-up of the Macedonian Empire were generally run by Macedonians in any case.

I HOPE ALL THE REST ON THIS FORUM CAN UNDERSTAND AND LEARN FROM YOUR DEDUCTION! :-)

However, the 'Hellenistic' element that existed during that 'Macedonian period' cannot be disregarded altogether, which had, as Gandeto said:

I think "Gandeto" was talking to a different audience in saying what he says. There is no doubt in my mind that he would be talking in a different language had his audience been Macedonians only!

Lets move on!

Cheers

[indigen]

Here is the origin of Hellenistic - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1088

It's meaning was something totally different in the 17th century from what some today think or feels that it is. I don't understand why we feel a need to label things today using mis-leading terminology? Scholars have really created a confusing picture to some and created a utopia (our southern neighbors) for others concerning terminologies like this. It's baseless and leads to dis-information. I know where both RTG and Indigen are coming from. I personally feel that "Alexander Era" would suffice.

TM, I now think that the labelling that Pasko uses is politically directed! He seems to be a typical bureaucrat and will follow directions in order to keep working in his post (probably what most (would) do in his position in RM) and in prior cases he used to use only the "Hellenistic" designation.

If you remember, around June 2009 there was a great deal political dissention regarding the "New History" subject following the publication of "History Of The Macedonian People" by Mitko Panov and this might be a temporary compromise political decision.

Новата историја е објавено на македонски и англиски јазик. Не е наменета за образовниот систем, туку за надворешна промоција на Македонија. Ја издаде Институтот за национална историја со пари на Владата.

Some Links (in Macedonian):

Историско откритие или обид за манипулација


Mitko Panov (author).

Нова историја на Македонија


Епохата на Александар Трети Македонски треба да се нарекува „александризам“ или „македонизам“

Ристовски: Ние сме доминантно словенски народ

17.06.2009 16:40
Веќе нашата маса како да се цепи

Во денешните Македонци сигурно има и некоја капка античка крв, но ние сме доминантно словенски народ, вели за А1, академик Блаже Ристовски.

СВЕТСКИ МАКЕДОНСКИ КОНГРЕС
ПРОМЕМОРИЈА ЗА (НЕО)ВРХОВИЗМОТ И МАКЕДОНСКИОТ ИДЕНТИТЕТ

11 октомври 2009 година, Скопје, Mакедонија - Светскиот Македонски Конгрес објави Промеморија за (нео)врховизмот и македонскиот идентитет којашто ја објавуваме во целост.

(1) Врховизмот во Македонија како феномен од крајот на деветнаесеттиот и почетокот на дваесеттиот век претставува сервилност на определена номенклатура која во отсуство на доверба од сопствениот електорат, мандат за власт бара од некоја од соседните метрополи на Македонија.

(2) Историјата на Македонија ниту започнува ниту завршува со ВМРО. ВМРО е само дел од најновата историја на Македонија. И затоа, иднината и судбината на Македонија не зависат од пројавите на врховизмот во ВМРО и неоврховизмот во ВМРО-ДПМНЕ и СДСМ. Секако дека ќе има и епизодни реакции по инерција, но без влијание на државноста на Македонија како милениумски процес, а не како дневна манифестација.

[...]

(8) Оттука и не случајно, актуализацијата на јавната полемика за „Словените и античките Македонци“ и „неологизмот антиквизација политички мотивиран заради десловенизација на македонскиот идентитет“, кој Светскиот Македонски Конгрес го отфрла како анахронизам. Напротив, распаѓањето на СФР Југославија ја ослободи македонската археологија и историја од изолацијата во сопствената држава заради туѓи интереси кон Македонија и Македонците. Археолошките ископини и историографијата не претставуваат антиквизација, ниту нивното истражување претставува романтизам, туку објективизација промоција и афирмација на македонскиот идентитет.

(9) За Светскиот Македонски Конгрес е неприфатлива поделбата на антички Македонци и Словени. За Светскиот Македонски Конгрес постојат само Македонци кои имаат непрекинат континуитет од пред новата ера до денес, независно како туѓи и други за свои интереси во разни периоди ги нарекувале. Сепарацијата на „Словени зад Карпатите“ и на антички Македонци е производ на заговорот за трајна промена на историското и државното име Македонија! Македонското културно наследство е интегрално и единствено со континуитет во време и простор и тоа им припаѓа на македонската историја и наука. Обвинувањата за таканаречена „антиквизација“ се дел од тој заговор! Впрочем, народ без историја, културно наследство и традиции нема минато, а народ без минато нема своја иднина!

[...]

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Коренита реформа во системот на МАНУ
Авторот е државен советник во Владата

Македонска енциклопедија би требало да биде највисокиот дострел на македонскиот гениј низ вековите. Посебно кога станува збор за прво дело од таков вид и калибар

[...]

Македонија е „света земја“ според еден угледен професор на еден престижен американски универзитет кој за Македонија и за Македонците научил првенствено од Библијата. Човек кој е воодушевен од земјата во која стапнал и чекорел апостол Павле, од земјата која прва на тлото во Европа се охрабрила да оформи Христијанска црковна заедница во Филипи (Драма), од народот кој прв се осмелил храбро да истапи од многубоштвото и да ја прими христијанската вера, преку примерот на Лидија. Името Лидија е типично македонско, и е најчесто застапено токму во Македонија, а не во Грција, Бугарија или Србија. Таа „света земја“ и тие „свети луѓе“ тој ги препознава во денешната Република Македонија, во денешниот македонски народ.

Ако нашите академици, користејќи историски извори и факти само од руска провениенција, без притоа задлабочено и научно издржано да навлезат во историските архиви на Рим и Ватикан, на Истанбул, на Вашингтон, Лондон, и каде уште не на тлото на западната христијанска цивилизација, не дозволат свеж ветар во Академијата, тогаш времето кое доаѓа ќе ги прегази и едноставно ќе служат за наш срам, а не за наше гордеење. Коренита реформа треба во системот на МАНУ.

Да тврдите денес дека Македонците се чисто словенска нација и народ, дека словенството успеало за само два века, или за само три генерации (дедо, татко, син) да претопи цел еден народ кој де факто живеел и творел и имал сериозни достигнувања на овие простори, треба да сте дебело политички индоктринирани од српското и руското влијание на овие простори. Замислете, варвари и диви племиња, кои не знаеле што е писменост, кои биле пагани, многубошци и не знаеле за Бога, истите тие да претопат докажан македонски гениј, да го збришат од земјината топка, да го претворат во невидлива материја по примерот на Коперфилд... И згора на тоа, да не знаете дека вие сте првите христијани на тлото на Европа, дека сте првата црква на тоа исто тло...
Ајде здраворазумски некој да ми каже дали е ова можно?..

[...]

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[Risto the Great]

For those who posted for the benefit of my education about the meaning of "Hellenistic", I know what it means and encompasses and I reject its use in regards to anything relating to Macedonian/Macedonistic era/period - always!

Indigen, do you believe Koine spread further as a result of Alexander's conquests?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Antonyms: expatriot, traitor

I don't know what 'expatriot' is, unless you are referring to an ex-patriot (former patriot), otherwise, there is the word 'expatriate' which means people like our parents when they first came to reside in a country other than their place of upbringing.

The Macedonian state was based on predominantly native stock (native population), very different to the other Macedonian successor kingdoms/states, and it is anti-Macedonian to deny its Macedonian essence in naming designations/classifications!

Nevertheless, it was the influence primarily distributed from Macedonian rulers in these foreign lands that makes it part of an era or period, in this case, Macedonian. The Romans too ruled these foreign lands, it is still known as the Roman period. The successor kingdoms of the Macedonian Empire are also worthy of the Macedonian name when reference is made to the period of time they existed.

I think "Gandeto" was talking to a different audience in saying what he says. There is no doubt in my mind that he would be talking in a different language had his audience been Macedonians only!

I hope not, because that will call his objectivity into question, and I certainly wont support him should he choose to have 2 'versions' of events. Sure, when relaying the story to Macedonians there is no need to put much emphasis on the 'Hellenistic' element, but as I said earlier, to totally disregard this element, be it to an audience of Macedonians or non-Macedonians, is to disregard the truth, and that should not be our aim as Macedonians.

He seems to be a typical bureaucrat and will follow directions in order to keep working in his post (probably what most (would) do in his position in RM) and in prior cases he used to use only the "Hellenistic" designation.

Who's directions is he following, Gruevski? Ivanov? Why the sudden onslaught against Pasko Kuzman, if there is something more to this story as some of you seem to have indicated, perhaps you should be a little more candid so we can be on the same level of understanding? For, if this is all there is on his 'anti-Macedonian propagandist' ways, frankly, I must say that I am unconvinced, and I am seriously contemplating an ammendment of the thread title.

[indigen]

October issue of M.A.News is a "mixed bag" of "periods"!

Number 3, Volume I, October 2009

Castle by the Pchinja River

Kiril Trajkovski and Pasko Kuzman

[....]

The Macedonian period from 4th century BC to 1st century AD, as well as the Roman period until the 4th century AD, here are still covered with secrets.

http://www.mav.mk/article.php?lang=en&article=16

Macedonian Type of Tomb in Varos – Ohrid

Pasko Kuzman

[...]
It is situated in Ohrid, in the old part of town, at the eastern foot of the higher Ohrid hill, within ten metres west of the antique theatre and the Braka Miladinovci street. The architectural configuration is typical of the Macedonian tombs from the Early Antiquity and the Macedonian - Hellenic period.
[.....]

The entrance has typically crafted stone vertical posts, carved in relief, which are raised at an angle and support the overhung relief - carved lintel. The vertical posts rest on an identical stone beam on the floor. The typical structure of this entrance structure is comparative with numerous similar realisations of Macedonian tombs from the end of Early Antiquity and in the Macedonian - Hellenic period, namely from the middle of the 4th century to the middle of the 2nd century BC.


[....]

http://www.mav.mk/article.php?lang=en&article=18

The Collector’s House at Vardarski Rid

Emil Slamkov

One of the most beautiful and most interesting examples of residential houses at the archaeological site of Vardarski Rid is the house known as the ‘Collector’s House’, discovered in the central section of the Eastern Terrace. In addition to its architectural design which is one of the most beautiful examples of residential houses from the pre-Roman period, the scientific and cultural significance of the house derives also from the richness and variety of objects discovered within.

[...]

http://www.mav.mk/article.php?lang=en&article=17

IMO, P. Kuzman clearly has some mental block that stops him from saying Macedonian period!

[indigen]

Indigen, do you believe Koine spread further as a result of Alexander's conquests?

Frankly, I do not really care whether it was or was not! If it was, it was incidental to "conquering the whole inhabited world for the Macedonians", as Plutarch says.

Did the English ("Germans") spread Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Chinese, (various) "Indian", Jewish, and other peoples, languages, cultures and religions all over the globe in building and maintaining their empire?

Other empires used common language for empire building and administration too, Aramaic being a good example.

Aramaic is thought to have first appeared among the Aramaeans about the late 11th century bc. By the 8th century bc it had become accepted by the Assyrians as a second language. The mass deportations of people by the Assyrians and the use of Aramaic as a lingua franca by Babylonian merchants served to spread the language, so that in the 7th and 6th centuries bc it gradually supplanted Akkadian as the lingua franca of the Middle East. It subsequently became the official language of the Achaemenian Persian dynasty (559–330 bc), though after the conquests of Alexander the Great, [Koine] displaced it as the official language throughout the former Persian empire.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/32043/Aramaic-language

History of Aramaic

Aramaic is the ancient language of the Semitic family group, which includes the Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Arameans, Hebrews, and Arabs. In fact, a large part of the Hebrew and Arabic languages is borrowed from Aramaic, including the Alphabet. The modern Hebrew (square) script is called "Ashuri", "Ashuri" is the Hebrew name for Assyrian, the name being used to signify the ancestor of the Assyrians, Ashur the son of Shem, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:22). Aramaic is quoted in the very first book of the Bible, Berisheth (Genesis) in Chapter 31:47. In fact, many portions of the Old Testament are penned originally in Aramaic, including Daniel chapter 2:4 thru chapter 7.

The first known inscriptions of Aramaic date to the late tenth or early ninth century B.C. In a phenomenal wave of expansion, Aramaic spread over Palestine and Syria and large tracts of Asia and Egypt, replacing many languages, including Akkadian and Hebrew. For about one thousand years it served as the official and written language of the Near East, officially beginning with the conquests of the Assyrian Empire, which had adopted Aramaic as its official language, replacing Akkadian.

During the later Chaldean (Neo-Babylonian) and Persian conquests, Aramaic had become the international medium of exchange.

[...]

http://www.peshitta.org/initial/aramaic.html

[indigen]

I don't know what 'expatriot' is,

It was simple copy paste from the "Answers.com" web page for the definition and antonym and not worth worrying about!

Nevertheless, it was the influence primarily distributed from Macedonian rulers in these foreign lands that makes it part of an era or period, in this case, Macedonian. The Romans too ruled these foreign lands, it is still known as the Roman period. The successor kingdoms of the Macedonian Empire are also worthy of the Macedonian name when reference is made to the period of time they existed.

I am not disagreeing! My emphasis was that in the case for the Macedonian homeland there should be no doubting its Macedonian character.

Who's directions is he following, Gruevski? Ivanov? Why the sudden onslaught against Pasko Kuzman, if there is something more to this story as some of you seem to have indicated, perhaps you should be a little more candid so we can be on the same level of understanding? For, if this is all there is on his 'anti-Macedonian propagandist' ways, frankly, I must say that I am unconvinced, and I am seriously contemplating an ammendment of the thread title.

I called it as I noticed it whilst reading the online journal and there is no conspiracy for "sudden onslaught" against PK. There is always lots of pressure to undermine our Macedonian identity, internal and external - Greeks, Bulgars, Shiptars, "IC", Sorosoidi and other lackeys.

If you think PK needs your protection, do as you see fit!

Cheers

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't recall writing 'conspiracy' anywhere, however, in this thread I read such negative comments towards Pasko Kuzman for the first time, hence the reason why I termed it 'sudden'.

There is always lots of pressure to undermine our Macedonian identity, internal and external - Greeks, Bulgars, Shiptars, "IC", Sorosoidi and other lackeys.

In your opinion, does Pasko Kuzman fit into this catergory?

If you think PK needs your protection, do as you see fit!

I protect and defend what I see as the truth, I found the statements made against Pasko Kuzman by yourself and some others unwarranted, and still till now, uncorroborated. I can appreciate that everybody has their own opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight if it can't be supported.

[indigen]

I don't recall writing 'conspiracy' anywhere

Did I say that you did (I quoted what you said!)?

however, in this thread I read such negative comments towards Pasko Kuzman for the first time, hence the reason why I termed it 'sudden'.

As a forum moderator, you should get used to reading a wide variety of views! IMO. nobody is born with knowing everything and, as the old saying goes, you learn something new every day (regardless of age)! :-)

In your opinion, does Pasko Kuzman fit into this catergory?

What do you think, is it possible for him to fit or come under the influence of any of those categories?

NB: "IC" = "International Community"

I protect and defend what I see as the truth

That is very noble of you! But remember how evasive (and subjective) "truth" can be!

I found the statements made against Pasko Kuzman by yourself and some others unwarranted, and still till now, uncorroborated.

If you are the "Judge, Jury and Executioner", it may be as you say. But if I may have your permission to express my view, I stand by what I said and the evidence is there in writing.

I can appreciate that everybody has their own opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight if it can't be supported.

Pasko Kuzman:
"in the Macedonian - Hellenic period, namely from the middle of the 4th century to the middle of the 2nd century BC."

My original post referred to "Macedonian - Hellenistic" and a few people responded in order to "educate" me on what "Hellenistic" was and was not! In this last issue of M.A.N. PK has cut off the leg on which the stool of "Hellenistic" barely stood upright on by using "Hellenic" instead. What do you make of "Macedonian - Hellenic period"?

Cheers

[Bij]

I am also surprised by the anti Kuzman sentiment going on here. I have dealt with him personally and have found him to be a very pleasant and helpful person, if a little eccentric.

[Risto the Great]

Frankly, I do not really care whether it was or was not! If it was, it was incidental to "conquering the whole inhabited world for the Macedonians", as Plutarch says.

I would think the sphere of influence during that window of Macedonia's long history was Hellenic. That influence then went on to be reflected in a period that was called Hellenistic for the Macedonians. Big deal. If I thought that makes us modern Greeks today, I would have abandoned this notion immediately.

Did the English ("Germans") spread Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Chinese, (various) "Indian", Jewish, and other peoples, languages, cultures and religions all over the globe in building and maintaining their empire?

Other empires used common language for empire building and administration too, Aramaic being a good example.

I am not sure how to apply your analogy. Should I be struggling with how the Macedonians spread Spartan, Athenian etc. languages, cultures and religions all over the globe? They didn't.

What was spread should appropriately be described as Macedonian. But to deny who was influencing the Macedonians creates more reason for confusion than less.

Perhaps somebody should ask Pasko what he means by Hellenistic and Hellenism and how they relate to modern Greeks. Personally, I would anticipate he means an ancient equivalent to something like Western civilisation as we know it today. Either way, Macedonia has had many influences throughout its long history and I think looking at one period in isolation as a defining statement for the modern Macedonians is perilous.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't recall writing 'conspiracy' anywhere

Did I say that you did (I quoted what you said!)?

You alluded to it. See below:
there is no conspiracy for "sudden onslaught" against PK

What's with all the !!! symbols, are you trying to yell your answer across?

As a forum moderator, you should get used to reading a wide variety of views!

Lol, thanks for the advice. I already do, as stated in previous post:

I can appreciate that everybody has their own opinion, but it doesn't hold much weight if it can't be supported.

What do you think, is it possible for him to fit or come under the influence of any of those categories?

Anything is possible, but that is not the point because that is not my opinion. The question stands, you listed a number of catergories, does Pasko fit into these caterogies that you cited or not?

.....the evidence is there in writing.

Evidence corroborating what you wrote as a title for this thread, that Pasko Kuzman is spreading anti-Macedonian "propaganda"? I fail to see it. What I do see is something that has been blown completely out of proportion, for what exact reason though, I don't know, I am trying to figure it out.

Like I said before, his terminology could have been a little better when making reference to that period, but his failure in this respect does not qualify him as a person who spreads anti-Macedonian "propaganda".

[indigen]

Lol, thanks for the advice

[Delete]

Anything is possible, but that is not the point because that is not my opinion. The question stands, you listed a number of catergories, does Pasko fit into these caterogies that you cited or not?

I listed possible political forces in Mkd that could have political influence on any given matter and never said which one PK is responsive to. End of story on this issue for me!

Evidence corroborating what you wrote as a title for this thread, that Pasko Kuzman is spreading anti-Macedonian "propaganda"? I fail to see it. What I do see is something that has been blown completely out of proportion, for what exact reason though, I don't know, I am trying to figure it out.

When Pasko K uzman presents Macedonian archaeological heritage as "Macedonian-Hellenic" (Macedonian=Greek), don't you see that as anti-Macedonian? I do, bratko!

Like I said before, his terminology could have been a little better when making reference to that period, but his failure in this respect does not qualify him as a person who spreads anti-Macedonian "propaganda".

No worries, "Soldier of Macedon", I will leave you and your comrades at peace shortly and you can chase all the "Avaro-Slav" (and any other "Slav") connections you want without disturbance.

All the best!