Hi everybody

[Soldier of Macedon]

Atesh, do you know this TV show?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian%E2%80%93Turkish_relations

There is also active cooperation in music, with reciprocal participation of artists on cultural events and performances of folklore ensembles. Also, the popular Turkish TV series Elveda Rumeli (Farewell Rumelia) is filmed in the Macedonian city Bitola.

[Atesh]

Yeah I know this series but. There is Kurtlar Vadisi too where at the start of this series Macedonia was reprezented.

[Ottoman]

So is it fair to assume then that both Turks and Mongols originally stem from the same cultural and linguistic origins, but developed separately over time?

The word "Mongol" was a term to describe a tribe of Turkic peoples in medieval times, just like Tatar and Uyghur.

Modern Mongols call themselves Mongols because they inhabit what is called Mongolia today, this nation is named after the Mongols of Genghis Khan who were Turkic, modern Mongols are not Turkic and cannot speak Turkic languages because they are Khalkha Mongols, these people are related with the Chinese but adopted Turkic culture and habits.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yeah I know this series but. There is Kurtlar Vadisi too where at the start of this series Macedonia was reprezented.

Atesh, how are you, been a very long time since you've posted. We have had a few more members from Turkey or that are Turkish join since your last visit, such as Onur and Ottoman.

Modern Mongols call themselves Mongols because they inhabit what is called Mongolia today, this nation is named after the Mongols of Genghis Khan who were Turkic, modern Mongols are not Turkic and cannot speak Turkic languages because they are Khalkha Mongols, these people are related with the Chinese but adopted Turkic culture and habits.

That suggests that modern Turkish is closer to old Mongolian than modern Mongolian is, I am not sure if that is accurate.

[Ottoman]

There is no old Mongolian, the language used in Genghis Khan his empire was the Uyghur language, the name Genghis Khan is Turkic, his birth name Temujin is Turkic, even his army was made up by Turks.

The modern Mongols adopted Turkic culture and habits, western historians are twisting history by claiming that the opposite thing happend but how is that possible if Mongolia was the homeland for many Turkic peoples like the Gokturks? in those times there were no Khalkha Mongols around in that area.

But then again everybody is free to believe in the thing they want, I dont believe in some western historians, they really love to twist history.

[Onur]

I think i wrote this b4 but i dont i remember which thread it was.

Most of Ghengis Khan`s army was enslaved Tatar Turks and there was Uyghur scholars in his court. No one knew such a tribe called Mongols in 13th century and there was no written Mongolian language at that time. Ghengis Khan enslaved Uyghur scholars to write his history and they wrote in Uyghur Turkic dialect.

[Makedonetz]

Welcome to the MTO Atesh

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur/Ottoman, just because there was no written Mongol language in the 13th century doesn't mean there was no Mongol language at all. I am not doubting the possibility of interaction between Turkic and Mongol groups, but without further corroboration I find it hard to believe that the actual Mongol element within the Mongol Empire was as insignificant (or undeveloped) as you make it to be.

[Onur]

It`s highly possible there was some kind of Mongolian language in 13th century but SOM, it`s simple logic. If no one writes a specific language, that language cannot develop and stays as a primitive and simple form of communication probably with only 100-200 words as maximum.

Also, we know that all documents from Genghis Khan era has been written in Uyghur dialect of Turkic, nothing else. The question is why Genghis Khan didn't let them write in Mongolian language. Maybe because Turkic was lingua franca or maybe their own Mongolian language was so primitive.

[Soldier of Macedon]

It`s highly possible there was some kind of Mongolian language in 13th century but SOM, it`s simple logic. If no one writes a specific language, that language cannot develop and stays as a primitive and simple form of communication probably with only 100-200 words as maximum.

Onur, I am trying to compare this situation to that of the ancient Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians. Their languages weren't written either, however, it would be naive to think that their vocabulary consisted of a mere couple hundred words.

Also, we know that all documents from Genghis Khan era has been written in Uyghur dialect of Turkic, nothing else. The question is why Genghis Khan didn't let them write in Mongolian language. Maybe because Turkic was lingua franca or maybe their own Mongolian language was so primitive.

I would chance to say that it was because Turkic had become a lingua franca rather than Mongolian being too primitive to be written. Perhaps there was no appetite for a literary tradition at the time, and it was more convenient to use an established literary language for formal use. Such instances can (again) be seen when comparing ancient Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians (even the Turkic Bulgars in the Balkans themselves) using the Greek language for the same purpose.

[Prolet]

Buyrum Atesh

Welcome to the Forum, it would be great to hear your opinion

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet,
Atesh has been a member of this forum longer than you have. Buyrum

[Ottoman]

It`s highly possible there was some kind of Mongolian language in 13th century but SOM, it`s simple logic. If no one writes a specific language, that language cannot develop and stays as a primitive and simple form of communication probably with only 100-200 words as maximum.

Also, we know that all documents from Genghis Khan era has been written in Uyghur dialect of Turkic, nothing else. The question is why Genghis Khan didn't let them write in Mongolian language. Maybe because Turkic was lingua franca or maybe their own Mongolian language was so primitive.

Turkic languages were just dominant in that area at the time, there is not other reason why everything was written in Uyghur dialect of Turkic, Genghis Khan his empire was mainly established by Turks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I disagree Ottoman, that is almost akin to somebody saying that Greeks established the Macedonian Empire because the Macedonians used Attic for formal use, or that Arabs established the Ottoman Empire because the Turks used the Arabic language and letters for many formal purposes - all of which are false assumptions. The actual Mongol elements of the Mongolian warrior hordes were not Turkic, but they did belong to the same Ural-Altaic ancestors.

[Ottoman]

I disagree Ottoman, that is almost akin to somebody saying that Greeks established the Macedonian Empire because the Macedonians used Attic for formal use, or that Arabs established the Ottoman Empire because the Turks used the Arabic language and letters for many formal purposes - all of which are false assumptions.

I think these examples you gave are wrong examples, why? because in ancient times both Greeks and Macedonians were there, in Ottoman times both Arabs and Turks were there.

But in the time of Genghis Khan the whole of the region what is now called Mongolia was inhabited by Turkic peoples, the Mongols you see today in Mongolia are not the Mongols from the 13th century.

The large and unfortunate misconception is that the present day Mongols are considered descendants of Genghis Khan. They are called Mongols because they inhabit present day Mongolia.

The actual Mongol elements of the Mongolian warrior hordes were not Turkic, but they did belong to the same Ural-Altaic ancestors.

Wrong mate, there was no such a thing like Mongol elements in the 13th century, the term Mongol was used to describe a tribe of Turkic peoples, the Mongols of the 13th century were Turks. The region what is now called Mongolia is the homeland of the Turkic peoples, the modern Mongols (Khalkha Mongols) inhabit Mongolia now but they dont know the history of the lands they are living on.