Language Continuity

[Delodephius]

I suggest you guys check out this blog:

http://languagecontinuity.blogspot.com/

Its very well written. I've read, I think, every single post there. Key terms: continuity, hybridization and diffusion.

[Delodephius]

Let's put the three key terms into the context of modern South Slavic language.

Continuity: there exists an unbroken chain of linguistic continuity in the Balkans since the Palaeolithic age.
Hybridization: the arrival of small bands of Slavonic warriors from Pannonia and the Wallachian plain south into Balkans and setting of small princedoms (referred to as the Sclaviniae) triggered a hybridization between the languages of the natives and the arrivals moulding what would one day become the modern South Slavic languages. Hybridization can only be done if the language of the natives and the language of the conquerors are similar enough in terms of vocabulary and grammar. Similar thing happened in Gaul and Iberia in contact with Latin: a creation of Romance languages.
Diffusion: influence of other languages into South Slavic, like Greek, Latin (Vlach) and Turkish. Hybridization with these languages could not be done because they are not related to native languages of the South Slavic area. If it was, we would find pidgin languages in the region, of which there are none.

[Risto the Great]

Not an unreasonable assessment.
But you would think that Hybridisation and Diffusion cross over somewhere.
As an example English has many French words. Even though it has perfectly fine English words, the French words found there way in and often represented more "sophisticated" versions of the same words.

[Delodephius]

Albanian is a good example of a diffusion. The larger part of its vocabulary is non-native (don't take my word for it, but I think it is about 70%). Albanians claim Illyrian descent, yet all the words relating to marine life is of Greek or Romance origin. By the way, the Illyrians were one of the greatest seafarers of the ancient Mediterranean, so go figure. The largest number of native Albanian words is related to pastoral i.e. shepherding and mountain life, evidenced also by plant names, of which only the plants growing in mountainous regions are of Albanian origin. As far as I read.

[Philosopher]

Tomas,

What is your opinion--who are the modern descendants of the ancient illyrians--are there any, since I know you reject the claims of the Albanians?

And, I might ask another matter of you, my good man: in regard to the Paleolithic Continuity Theory, and the Albanians, who do you think Albanians are?

SoM believes they are from the Middle East; he has quoted Ottoman sources that suggest, by the very words of the Albanians themselves, that they are Arabic or have a strong South West Asian origin. I have seen information that the J2e--the most common Semitic Haplogroup in DNA studies--is more than three times of any European people, with one exception. And Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the highest E3b. Yet, the language of the Albanian and the spelling of their names, resembles that of Italic and has Greek influences, as you pointed out.

What is your opinion on this matter? When do you think the Albanians came to the Balkans, to the location where they are now in? And do you believe that the Albanians spoke another language prior to the one they are speaking now? If so, how did they adopt a new one and why? By force of conquest or other reasons?

[Soldier of Macedon]

A south-west origin is very likely, but that element is of little significance in the modern Albanian, you have had Slavic, Greek, Latin and Germanic admixtures over centuries which has contributed to the 'formation' of their language. It is almost as if a mix of various peoples were isolated in some (mountain?) area and led by the Arnaudi over a long period, which probably culminated in a crystalisation of the language around the 12-13th centuries, or thereabouts.

[Delodephius]

The popular theory now in Serbia is that Albanians arrived from Sicily. It is a fact that in the ancient world there existed tribes of unknown language in Sicily before Greek, Carthaginian and Roman conquest. There lived tribes called the Sikani, Sikeli and Elymi. But Serbs popularize that Albanians were brought to Sicily by the Arabs and then in the 11th century (around 1043 AD) as recorded Michael Attaliates they were brought to Balkans to help in a revolt against Constantinople. In this same period they are mentioned by Anna Comnena speaking about the rule of here father (1081-1118) when there was some trouble with the Albanians fighting the Normans, and in a OCS letter of unknown orign from the beginning of the 11th century which spoke of Albanians as semi-Orthodox. And that's about it.

As for my own opinion, I don't know. I would say they were a small tribe that lived in the Balkans since ancient time mostly isolated from others thus preserving their native language. One of the facts about their language is that it preserved couple of phonetic features considered archaic in other IE languages. Another fact is that the Romance influence on Albanian was from East-Romance languages, that is Vlach and Romanian, and not for example Latin or Italian, only much later. This would show the Balkan origin of the language. Some suggest that Albanians lived in central Balkans, today's Serbia, and then moved to south-west into the Shar Mountains. Their original pastoral lifestyle supports this hypothesis, since pastorals are usually nomadic or semi-nomadic. But if the moved from just Serbia, heck, we can say they moved all the way from Romania.
The Albanians were a small ethnic group once. It was so small and insignificant that it eluded the eyes of ancient and medieval historians almost completely. Albanians however experienced boom in numbers only about the time of the arrival of the Ottomans and Islam.

[makedonin]

Another fact is that the Romance influence on Albanian was from East-Romance languages, that is Vlach and Romanian, and not for example Latin or Italian, only much later. This would show the Balkan origin of the language. Some suggest that Albanians lived in central Balkans, today's Serbia, and then moved to south-west into the Shar Mountains. Their original pastoral lifestyle supports this hypothesis, since pastorals are usually nomadic or semi-nomadic. But if the moved from just Serbia, heck, we can say they moved all the way from Romania.

There are records of albanians being called Vlachs by some authors. The Vlach and Romanian language with the Albanian language make out a group of Romanic languages on the Balkans, that's for sure.

Since the Vlachs as the Albanians share pastor culture and there is a region in Romania called Walachia i.e. Vlach's and in Greek the word Βλαχοι means pastor, there could be some connection indeed.

The Albanian language is however more mixed than the Romanian and Vlach language, has many Greek and Slavonic influences, and this could be due to mixing or assimilation.

Who knows? Who cares?

[Risto the Great]

I get the impression anyone with a sheep in their backyard might have been called a Vlach at some time.

[makedonin]

I get the impression anyone with a sheep in their backyard might have been called a Vlach at some time.

In deed true.

[makedonin]

I just found it interesting enough and did some search, here is what I found interesting :

"Vlach is itself an interesting word. It seems to be a derivative from the same Germanic word cognate to welsch in German and Welsh in English, both meaning Roman, whether the Romans be Latin-speaking or Celtic-speaking. Vlach itself is Slavic (taking that form in Czech) and could mean Italian or Romanian, though the same word, with appropriate case endings, turns up in mediaeval Latin (Blachi) and Greek (Blakhoi, pronounced Vlakhi), only applied to the Romance speakers of the Balkans. It also occurs in Polish as Wloch, in Hungarian as Olasz, in Russian as Volokh, in Yiddish as Walach, and in various other forms even in those same languages (cf. "Vlach," A Dictionary of Surnames, Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges [Oxford University Press, 1988], p. 558). Vlach also significantly turns up in the name of the first Romanian principality: Wallachia (or sometimes "Walachia"). Thus, we can imagine the word being left behind in the Balkan Sprachbund by the German tribes during their stay in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.

For many centuries Vlach was a spoken and not a written language. When it was committed to writing, the Cyrillic alphabet was used, in line with the Orthodox faith of the people. Later, a national consciousness arose in the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia, where the language came to be called "Romanian."
- The Vlach Connection and Further Reflections on Roman History - Kelley L. Ross, Ph.D


"Welsh - O.E. Wilisc, Wylisc (W.Saxon), Welisc, Wælisc (Anglian and Kentish), from Wealh, Walh "Celt, Briton, Welshman, non-Germanic foreigner;" in Tolkien's definition, "common Gmc. name for a man of what we should call Celtic speech," but also applied to speakers of Latin, hence O.H.G. Walh, Walah "Celt, Roman, Gaulish," and O.N. Valir "Gauls, Frenchmen" (Dan. vælsk "Italian, French, southern"); from P.Gmc. *Walkhiskaz, from a Celtic name represented by L. Volcæ "ancient Celtic tribe in southern Gaul." The word survives in Wales, Cornwall, Walloon, walnut, and in surnames Walsh and Wallace. Borrowed in O.C.S. as vlachu, and applied to Romanians, hence Walachia. Welsh was used disparagingly of inferior or substitute things, hence Welsh rabbit (1725), also Welsh rarebit (1785) "
- ONLINE ETYMOLOGY DICTIONARY

Source

Bottom line:

We know that variants of the name/word are used in a number of countries that were once part of the Roman Empire, that the word appears to have a Roman/Latin origin, and it has a meaning of: the others - the strangers - the foreigners - the ones that are not like us.

[Sarafot]

How about Vlah-Vlastnik-Ruler,Romans Rulers,Vlasti-Vlasi??

[makedonin]

How about Vlah-Vlastnik-Ruler,Romans Rulers,Vlasti-Vlasi??

Moe mislenje e deka toa ne e mozhno. Toa mozhebi so deneshniot Makedonski jazik ke odi pod raka, ama ne e se ima poteklo od Makedonskiot.