Dragoumis "greek"Macedonian 'patriots' are Albanians

[osiris]

the simple fact is withouth any outsdie influence through schools religion terror or whatever, macedonians left to themselves would have never identified as anything other than macedonians.

during the seocnd world war when bulgaria was given parts of macedonian i learned on the weekend from a "greek" whose father was a prosfiga amd mother a local macedonian from one of the villages on lake kostur that even some prosfigi in kostursko started to feel "bulgarian", go figure.

or closer to home the numerous nuevo riche australians of irish decent who in the immediate post world war 2 era started to identify as british ie english.

[Pelister]

Dragoumis wrote "Martyrs and heroes' Blood", here are some observations cited by Anastasia Karakasidou in her "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", PAGE 91-2.

Throughout much of the text, Dragoumis wrote in broad, general categories of "Greek" and "Bulgarian". Yet occasionally, particularly when articulating a detailed ethnographic point, he also spoke of "Macedonians of Macedonia" and the "Vlachs of Hellenism". The context of national struggle in Macedonia at the time of Dragoumis' writing shaped a broad rhetorical framework of Greek-Bulgarian opposition in his political discourse. The equally important context of local conditions, as he himself had observed and experienced them, revealed another level of group labels and ideological characteristics masked by the principal Greek-Bulgarian dichotomy, such as the Macedonians of Macedonia (who opposed both Greek and Bulgarian activities) and the Vlachs of Hellenism (who rejected Romanian propaganda and considered themselves members of the Hellenic national collectivity). The depiction is significant, for it addresses the active role Hellenized Vlachs played in establishing the hegemony of the notion (and the policing) of a modern Greek state in Macedonia. As for the "Macedonians", Dragoumis maintained that their language is closer to a mix of Greek and Slavic than to Bulgarian.

When speaking in ethnographic terms, Dragoumis speaks of Macedonians, who are against both Greeks and Bulgarians. Dragoumis' observation of the Macedonian language sounding more Greek/Slavic than Bulgarian is important only in the fact that it distinguishes the language from both Greek and Bulgarian. He should have spoken to his brother in-law Pavlos Melas about how non-Greek the Macedonian (Makedonika) language was.

I take it Dragoumis is another apparent 'hero' of the Greek cause to usurp Macedonia, I wonder if his worshippers in the 21st century can see the same thing he did, MACEDONIANS WHO ARE MACEDONIANS, AND NOT GREEK OR BULGAR.

This is such a key point.

local conditions, as he himself had observed and experienced them, revealed another level of group labels and ideological characteristics masked by the principal Greek-Bulgarian dichotomy

I just read that Kanchov - that great Bulgarian ethnographer wrote in his memoirs that all the "Bulgarians" of Macedonia called themslevles just Macedonians. That he had learnt this from first hand experience all over Macedonia, and yet he misrepresented them 'as Bulgarians' despite this fact.

[osiris]

SoM will tell us more about this dominant language shortly.

exactly rtg, given the fact that my father in law whose prents were from bogatsko and spoke 7 european languages, but did not speak greek untill he migrated there in the 1960s, something most greeks despite where they live do teach their kids.

the langauge spoken by his parents as he himslef remembered, was exactly the same as the one you and i speak, ie macedonian.

[Risto the Great]

coincidently i was visiting my parents on the weekend and my father was reading a book by a greek who claims that the dragoumis family in bogatsko spoke macedonian at home and there are documents linked to his sister natalia that prove it conclusively.

i also would question their greekness, because why would they not go to greece if they were in fact greeks from albania, instead of a macedonian speaking village in macedonia. although ironically enough had they gone to mt taugetus in the peloponese they would have encountered slavic speaker there as well.

Interesting points Osiris. The dominant language of the region at the time was Macedonian. They either already knew it or else they learned it very fast.

SoM will tell us more about this dominant language shortly.

[osiris]

it sure is rtg, and coincidently i was visiting my parents on the weekend and my father was reading a book by a greek who claims that the dragoumis family in bogatsko spoke macedonian at home and there are documents linked to his sister natalia that prove it conclusively.

i also would question their greekness, because why would they not go to greece if they were in fact greeks from albania, instead of a macedonian speaking village in macedonia. although ironically enough had they gone to mt taugetus in the peloponese they would have encountered slavic speaker there as well.

i suggest there would have been many more slavic speaking people in albania than greek as witnessed by the hundreds of slavic place names that existed and still exist there, and it would be more probable they would have been ethnic slavic speakers not greek.

[Risto the Great]

The man came from a family of Greeks who had moved in the 16th century from Albania to a village outside Florina in western Macedonia, called Vogatsiko, so as to avoid forcible conversion to Islam. Ion's great grandfather, Mark Dragoumis (1770-1854), had been a member of the "Friendly Society" that had started the Greek War of Independence in 1821.

Osiris, "Vogatsiko" is a very interesting place. I am sure you would agree. I think a book could be written on that one village. Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs .... now Greek .... (un)naturally.

[TrueMacedonian]

Bump. I like to hear modern "greek" hearts break when they read about Dragoumis being from an Albanian family lol.

[Risto the Great]

i am starting to think that before the hellenisation process set in motion by the bavarian kingdom their were very few ethnic greek speakers anywhere in macedonia. so when our greek macedonian internet hellenes talk about thei family speaking greek from ever, sorry couldnt help that pun, they are talking about the middle of 19 century at the earliest. like the people in karakasidou's book who pure chest beating greeks but had migrated to macedonian in the early 1800s and were in fact vlachs.

I am sure you are not "starting" to think this Osiris.
In fact, I am sure you knew this already.
And I am quite sure an argument exists that the definition of a Greek for the last 1500 years was a Slavic one ... as they dominated the landscape and maintained the Orthodox tradition. So when our favourite little Grkomani tell us about the Greekness of Macedonia ... I may be inclined to tell them about the Macedonianness of Greece.

Get rid of the Jews, Turks and Vlach nomads in Greece proper ... and what do you have left in Greece? Albanians (questionable origins) and Macedonians. Oh, and a few ancient Greek remnants (I didn't forget you Spartan). Start talking about the region of Macedonia and ... ummm ... well, there were no Spartans.

[Risto the Great]

I met a nice Macedonian guy from Melbourne on the weekend.
His girlfriend had a mother From Serres and Father from prosfiga-land.
The girlfriend's Mother said her Grandmother knew nothing but "Bulgarian" but that she is pure Greek. She scoffed at the suggestion that Alexander the Great was anything but Greek.

And this is the mentality of our adversaries.

I think I prefer them being called Greeks.
I also think Serres should revert back to its Katharevousa name of Serrai. And wonder why this did not happen like so many other place names in modern Greece

[osiris]

i am starting to think that before the hellenisation process set in motion by the bavarian kingdom their were very few ethnic greek speakers anywhere in macedonia. so when our greek macedonian internet hellenes talk about thei family speaking greek from ever, sorry couldnt help that pun, they are talking about the middle of 19 century at the earliest. like the people in karakasidou's book who pure chest beating greeks but had migrated to macedonian in the early 1800s and were in fact vlachs.

[Pelister]

Karakasidou sums it up well.

There is a Greek-Bulgarian discourse developing, that has very little to do with "local conditions"

The "dichotomy" she talks about is external to "local conditions" and this point is corroborated by the Greek agitator operating in Macedonia, Dragoumis.

Brilliant stuff.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Excellent question, and it comes with a simple answer that you outlined above, the common identity and belonging as Macedonians was already in existence, add the common customs, culture and language, and you do have a nation.

[El Bre]

SoM your exerpt illustrates something that I had formulated some time ago. The people of Macedonia at the time were exposed to many identities which were supported by a concerted political effort. I maintain that those who didn't subscribe to the various exterior influences remained what they always were...Macedonians. Otherwise, how does a rural population, in a time of little or no means or information transmission, attending the institutions of others (churches and schools) develop a common national identity if it didn't already exist in some form?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dragoumis wrote "Martyrs and heroes' Blood", here are some observations cited by Anastasia Karakasidou in her "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", PAGE 91-2.

Throughout much of the text, Dragoumis wrote in broad, general categories of "Greek" and "Bulgarian". Yet occasionally, particularly when articulating a detailed ethnographic point, he also spoke of "Macedonians of Macedonia" and the "Vlachs of Hellenism". The context of national struggle in Macedonia at the time of Dragoumis' writing shaped a broad rhetorical framework of Greek-Bulgarian opposition in his political discourse. The equally important context of local conditions, as he himself had observed and experienced them, revealed another level of group labels and ideological characteristics masked by the principal Greek-Bulgarian dichotomy, such as the Macedonians of Macedonia (who opposed both Greek and Bulgarian activities) and the Vlachs of Hellenism (who rejected Romanian propaganda and considered themselves members of the Hellenic national collectivity). The depiction is significant, for it addresses the active role Hellenized Vlachs played in establishing the hegemony of the notion (and the policing) of a modern Greek state in Macedonia. As for the "Macedonians", Dragoumis maintained that their language is closer to a mix of Greek and Slavic than to Bulgarian.

When speaking in ethnographic terms, Dragoumis speaks of Macedonians, who are against both Greeks and Bulgarians. Dragoumis' observation of the Macedonian language sounding more Greek/Slavic than Bulgarian is important only in the fact that it distinguishes the language from both Greek and Bulgarian. He should have spoken to his brother in-law Pavlos Melas about how non-Greek the Macedonian (Makedonika) language was.

I take it Dragoumis is another apparent 'hero' of the Greek cause to usurp Macedonia, I wonder if his worshippers in the 21st century can see the same thing he did, MACEDONIANS WHO ARE MACEDONIANS, AND NOT GREEK OR BULGAR.

[Daskalot]

bravo, the Truth will be known!