Greek forgery in the world's most translations of the Bible

**Daniel the Great** · 07-31-2011, 09:03 AM

Wow, what a good read.

**George S.** · 07-31-2011, 12:21 PM

I came accross this years ago when i was studying the bible & comparative religion.That greece & amcedonia were treated the same.It seemed very odd to me at the time but i didn't have an answer only to say it was pure ignorance.Now we know that macedonians are descended from the kittim as covered in one of the threads.A lot of writers especially seemed to presuppose that greeks & macedonians are the same & they thought since he alexander was king over greece then they are all the same what a fraud.
A lot of writers thought because alexander or phillip were sort of phillhellenes or spoke greek they must be greek.Isn't it disgusting when people like translators don't their research.In the bible it says that st paul went
to greece & to macedonia.The greeks knocked him back because of their myths & superstition but paul went to macedonia & was accepted by the macedonians.There are even stories that jesus's mother even went to macedonia.

**cultea** · 08-01-2011, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by The LION will ROAR View Post

Greek forgery in the world's most translations of the Bible

I suggest you read this

Septuagint - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

and then start a thread titled �Ptolemies- The Traitors�

**Bill77** · 08-01-2011, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by cultea View Post

I suggest you read this

Septuagint - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

and then start a thread titled “Ptolemies- The Traitors”

May i ask you for your opinion, why would Ptolemy want the OT translated? why was it so important (for Ptolemy) that the Alexandrian Jews who were not fluent in Hebrew, to understand the Tora.

**cultea** · 08-01-2011, 03:00 AM

Translating something to Greek was the most natural thing. That's not the point.

Theologically speaking, the Christian Church (when established) considered this translation as "God-inspired", "equivalent to the original" and sometimes... "more valid than the original". With this Synodical decision (can�t remember which Synod) they bypassed huge theological problems that arose from debated interpretations and obvious mistakes when translated from Hebrew to Greek.
According to Orthodox Church, defying this translation probably makes you a heretic. Does your Church have a one-and-only official translation? How do you deal with interpretation problems?

**Bill77** · 08-01-2011, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by cultea View Post

Translating something to Greek was the most natural thing. That's not the point.

Then what was your point when you sarcasticly suggested TLWR to start a thread titled �Ptolemies- The Traitors�.

A point i want to make after reading your wiki link, is that it was not very Hellene of Ptolemy to promote theology.

Originally posted by cultea View Post

Theologically speaking, the Christian Church (when established) considered this translation as "God-inspired", "equivalent to the original" and sometimes... "more valid than the original".

Of coarse they would say this. But your next point, how can something be more valid than an original when you consider there would be hurdles in interpreting Hebrew to Greek. It would be likely that a message would get lost in translation, therfor unreliable.

Originally posted by cultea View Post

According to Orthodox Church, defying this translation probably makes you a heretic.

Most of these Church leaders are heretics them selves. So who cares what they think.

Looking back in history, these so called heretics, moved on and formed another church/Religion and it kept splinting and still does to this day. This is the whole problem of Christianity, translation or interpretation is the main reason for breaking away and remain devided. The bible is not black and white.

**cultea** · 08-01-2011, 06:21 AM

It refers to the silly title "Greek forgery in the world's most translations of the Bible". It's not that "Those mother-fuckers are everywhere". It's that most translations are from the Greek text, not the original.
"Promoting theology" is a wrong phrase. This translation would be as important as translating the Quran, when you live next to Muslims. The Greeks were flexible in adopting foreign Gods and mixing them with their own Gods. They would say that these are just foreign interpretations of the same Gods. They would say (see Herodotus), these people worship Poseidon (the God of Sea) but call him in a different name.

Originally posted by Bill77 View Post

Of coarse they would say this. But your next point, how can something be more valid than an original when you consider there would be hurdles in interpreting Hebraic to Greek. It would be likely that a message would get lost in translation, therfor unreliable.

That seems correct, but... not Christian, at least not Orthodox. If you're @#$% enough to believe that the Old and New Testament are the Word of God, that will lead your life, you will easily believe, that the Greek translation is the God-inspired (Greek) word of God, (so you don't have to worry or learn Hebraic to make your basic decisions), and you will easily believe the Synodical decisions are God-inspired too.
Doubt is an enemy of Faith, and back-then doubts could be very dangerous. In 1960s the Catholics decided to correct some small mistakes in their dogma. That would be normally a brave and honest decision but it caused a huge crisis among the faithful people. These people just wouldn’t believe that their Faith had mistakes. So, it takes a small crack and the Absolute Truth collapses.

Originally posted by Bill77 View Post

Most of these Church leaders are heretics them selves. So who cares what they think.

Looking back in history, these so called heretics, moved on and formed another church/Religion and it kept splinting and still does to this day. This is the whole problem of Christianity, translation or interpretation is the main reason for breaking away and remain devided. The bible is not black and white.

That's very Protestant of you.

**Bill77** · 08-01-2011, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by cultea View Post

"Promoting theology" is a wrong phrase. This translation would be as important as translating the Quran, when you live next to Muslims. The Greeks were flexible in adopting foreign Gods and mixing them with their own Gods.

You are confusing the matter when you use the word "Greek" instead of "Hellenes" when it comes to ancient times. They have two diferent meanings and has been much talked about in this forum.

By the way, all the gods that these (what you would call "Greeks") worshipped were foreign to begin with.

**George S.** · 08-01-2011, 08:34 AM

bill what's the difference between greek,hellene & hellarse.To me it's the same shit.Just a play on words.The greeks adopted a lot of gods from the egyptians & simply changed the names to greek ones.(hellenised them)
When translating the bible its got the greek meanings in the words after a while they just had their finger in the pie & wrote whatever they wanted.Who's to say they were wrong as no one would know they were claiming that macedonians & greeks were the same.We all know today it's like comparing chalk & cheese.

**TrueMacedonian** · 08-03-2011, 08:17 PM

A serious question to consider here is what century modern scholars believe that the Book of Daniel was written? I have read that there are scholars who think it was written in the 2nd century BC.

**Bill77** · 08-04-2011, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post

A serious question to consider here is what century modern scholars believe that the Book of Daniel was written? I have read that there are scholars who think it was written in the 2nd century BC.

They must be going by Porphyrius ( a anti Christian, Neoplatonic philosopher who was born in Tyre 234 AD). In his twelfth book he wrote about the prophet Daniel. He said that the book of Daniel was written not by the man whom it is named after, but by someone who lived in Judaea at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes (175 BC – 164 BC); and so instead of Daniel predicting the future, this writer describes what has already happened.

Regarding Alexander and the prediction that its he Daniel speaks about, well thats only according to Josephus and some modern scholars and more the theologists run with it.

Mind you, Josephus considered himself to be a ‘prophet’ as well, so it doesn’t say much for his judgment on Daniel.

So who do we believe.

**George S.** · 08-04-2011, 04:29 AM

Good question....Was Daniel written AFTER the events he foretold?

[Draft May 16, 1998; major revision Dec/2000]

Someone wrote in:

When was the book of Daniel written? Do we have any proof that it was written before the events it foretold happened? My professor told our class that it was written after the events and made to look like real prophecies.

A lot depends on which events/prophecies your professor is referring to:

1. the statute prophecy of Daniel 2
2. the tree vision/humbling of Nebuchadnezzar of Dan 4
3. the prophecy of the fall of Babylon to the Medes/Persians, of Dan 5
4. the beast visions of world empires in Daniel 7
5. the ram/goat/horn vision--identified as Media/Persia versus Greece, with likely reference to Antiochus Epiphanes, in Daniel 8
6. the 70 weeks prophecy of the Messiah, in Daniel 9
7. Prophecies of successive empires, with likely reference to Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 11
8. Prophecies of Israel's future and end-time events, in Daniel 12

The prophecies that are usually 'objected to' in this way are the detailed prophecies in chapter 11, especially with reference to 11.21-35 dealing with Antiochus Epiphanes. So we will concentrate on that section first, and then broaden the discussion to encompass some of the earlier prophecies (e.g. the triumph of Greece).
.................................................. .................................................. .............

Well, let's try to scope out the problem first--(1) when did the events Daniel (theoretically) referred to happen, and (2) when did he allegedly write the book?

One--The events in history (of Daniel 11)

It is generally accepted by scholars of ALL theological orientations that some of the elements of Daniel 11 were fulfilled (at least partially) by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 BC), with the 'abomination of desolation' being in 167 BC.

Josephus, for example, explicitly connected some of Daniel's prophecy to the Maccabean period:

"Though these dreams and visions all concern events in the future, there is considerable variation both in the timescale involved and in the scope of the events predicted. Some dreams predict events for the immediate future, some for the more distant future, and some for the very distant future. The dream of Pharaoh's butler indicated that he would be release from prison 'within three days' (Ant. 2.65). Events under Antiochus Epiphanes, on the other hand, had been predicted 'many years' in advance by Daniel, on the basis of his visions (10.276). As we saw in chapter 1, Josephus believed that Daniel had predicted events that occurred in the Roman period, and even events that were still to come from his own (Josephus') point of view" [HI:PFLST:63]

[Christians, under the guidance of Jesus in Matthew 24.15, speaking of some future manifestation of the 'abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel', saw this event as typological of a later, eschatological event, as well.]

This places the events under question (i.e., the prophetic elements) squarely in the period of the Maccabean revolt, ca. 168-165 B.C.

Two--When was the book written?

Most modern non-conservative scholars believe that Daniel (or at least the second half of Daniel, the section containing the passages in question) was written by someone other than Daniel either DURING these events or shortly thereafter. This view was first developed by the brilliant anti-Christian Porphyry in the 3rd century AD. The history of this view is given by Archer in EBC:

"The Maccabean date hypothesis, a widely held theory of the origin and date of the Book of Daniel, was originally advanced by the third-century A.D. Neoplatonic philosopher Porphyrius of Tyre. According to the relation of his opinions by Jerome (who spent much of his commentary on Daniel refuting Porphyry's arguments), Porphyry contended that the remarkably accurate "predictions" contained in Daniel (esp. ch. 11) were the result of a pious fraud, perpetrated by some zealous propagandist of the Maccabean movement, who wished to encourage a spirit of heroism among the Jewish patriots resisting Antiochus IV. The discomfiture of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar as related in Daniel were intended to be prophetic of the defeats and downfall of the hated Epiphanes.

"Following Jerome's refutation of Porphyry, he was more or less dismissed by Christian scholarship as a mere pagan detractor who had allowed a naturalistic bias to warp his judgment. But during the time of the Enlightenment in the eighteenth century, all supernatural elements in Scripture came under suspicion, and Porphyry's theory received increasing support from J.D. Michaelis (1771), J.G. Eichhorn (1780), L. Berthold (1806), F. Bleek (1822), and many others after them. They all agreed that every accurate prediction in Daniel was written after it had already been fulfilled (a vaticinium ex eventu) and therefore in the period of the Maccabean revolt (168-165 B.C.). Also some of them were inclined to question the unity of the book on the ground of internal evidence and language differences; certain portions of the book--particularly the narratives in chapters 2-6--were thought to come from third-century authors or even earlier. Essentially the same position is maintained even to this day by liberal scholars throughout Christendom. "

Collins [ABD, "Daniel, Book of"] cites Jerome's description:

"Quite apart from the historicity of the figure of Daniel, the authenticity of the book had already been questioned by the 3d century Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry. We are informed by Jerome that: "Porphyry wrote his twelfth book against the prophecy of Daniel, denying that it was composed by the person to whom it is ascribed in its title, but rather by some individual living in Judaea at the time of that Antiochus who was surnamed Epiphanes; he further alleged that 'Daniel' did not foretell the future so much as he related the past, and lastly that whatever he spoke of up till the time of Antiochus contained authentic history, whereas anything he may have conjectured beyond that point was false, inasmuch as he would not have foreknown the future."

The alternative view, of conservative evangelicals, is that Daniel was written in the late 6th century BC, long before these events. EBC gives a summary:

"As to the date of the composition of Daniel, the narrative of the prophet's earliest experiences begins with his capture as a hostage by Nebuchadnezzar back in 605-604 B.C. and according to 1:21 continues certainly till the first year of Cyrus (c. 537 B.C.), in relation to his public service, and to the third year of Cyrus (535 B.C.), in relation to his prophetic ministry (Dan 10:1). Daniel seems to have revised and completed his memoirs during his retirement sometime about 532 or 530 B.C. when he would have been close to ninety years old (assuming his birth c. 620 B.C.). The appearance of Persian-derived governmental terms, even in the earlier chapters composed in Aramaic, strongly suggests that these chapters were given their final form after Persian had become the official language of government."

The issue--was it written BEFORE the events or NOT?

Notice carefully that our task is much more simple than would first appear. We do NOT have to demonstrate that the Book of Daniel was written according to conservative theories--in the 6th century BC. ALL we have to do (in this first part) is to demonstrate that it was written BEFORE 167 BC! If the prophecies were uttered even ten years before the event, then they constitute 'prophecy proper'.

Strictly speaking, all that is therefore necessary to do is to demonstrate that the material/content in the book of Daniel was in existence by the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. We don't even have to show that the book was in its current form at all-if we can even find references or close/obvious allusions to the images/languages in Daniel, we will have ante-dated the events, and hence, have encountered 'real' prophecy. [If we find data to support a MUCH earlier, perhaps 6th century provenance, then 'so much the better'.]

And this is a much simpler task...

I will survey the data in the following categories:

1. Do we have any copies of the Book of Daniel that either date BEFORE 167bc, or even somewhat later ones that virtually require the existence of the Danielic material before that time? [The Dead Sea Scrolls data]

2. Do we have any literary references or clear allusions to the Book in other pre-Maccabean extra-biblical literature?

3. Do we have any contrary data adequate to overturn any of the data in points 1 and 2 above [Internal Evidence: Historical and Linguistic]?

4. Is there any other data that is best explained by the "early dating" of the Book?

**George S.** · 08-04-2011, 04:30 AM

Historical Dating of the Book of Daniel

The book of Daniel is an apocalyptic of the Old Testament. It is divided into two main parts: history and prophecy. The first six chapters are the history section, telling of a Jew named Daniel of royal descent, who was taken captive along with the rest of the people from the city of Jerusalem. King Nebuchadnezzer placed Daniel (among others) in his service, and had them trained. This section tells of the persecutions that Daniel and his friends undergo, and also of the high positions that Daniel attains. It relates the fact that God is in control, and how He protects His faithful servants.
The second section can either be construed as prophecy, or history containing some prophecy, depending on the date one assumes that the book was written. In either case, most scholars agree that chapters seven through twelve tell the story of the battles of the Near East, from the sixth century to the second and/or the first centuries B.C. The battles are between the four successive kingdoms of the Babylonians, the Medo-Persians or the Medians then the Persians, the Greeks, and possibly the Romans.

Chapter eleven is the focus of most of the controversy, as, according to most scholars, it gives a very detailed account of the battles of Antiochus Epiphanes. If it weren't for the great details here, most people could assume that the book was written in the sixth century, and that the author got lucky with his vague allusions. But ever since the third century AD, when the neoplatonist, Poryphyry, write a work entitled Against Christians, questions have been raised about the authenticity of the work (Ferch, pg. 129). Porphyry's contention is that the book must have been written in the second century BC, being merely historical narratives, since such long-range prophecies are impossible in his perspective of a closer systemic universe, void of any supernatural intervention. Before this, and for some time after that, the general consensus was that the book was written by Daniel in the sixth century BC, and is the truly inspired prophecy from God (vaticania ante eventu vs. vaticania ex eventu).

The debate began again with fervor in the seventeenth through the eighteenth centuries, during the scientific revolution, when naturalism and rationalism had an upsurge. They too agreed with Porphyry, that such long-range prophecies were impossible, so the book must have been written during the Maccabean age (second century BC; Baldwin, pg. 35). Then in 1890, Klaus Koch wrote a powerful book denouncing the exilic date of writing (sixth century BC), and proclaiming the Maccabean theory (Ferch, pg. 129). Immediately following him, in 1900, came S.R. Driver's commentary on Daniel, supporting the same theory. Since then, the majority of scholars generally accept the Maccabean theory without much question. However, I will attempt to show that the evidence points to an early date for the writing of Daniel, placing it in the sixth century BC.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is discoursing in what we tend to call the "Little Apocalypse." In it, Jesus mentions Daniel, and a quote from his book. He refers to the "'abomination the causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel." Here, Jesus uses the Greek dia, along with the genitive case, which always implies personal human agency (Archer, pg 284) That should strongly lead one to believe that Jesus was under the impression that the Daniel he referred to was an actual person named Daniel, not just the title of a book.

Jesus also calls that Daniel a profhtou, or "one who proclaims inspired utterances on behalf of God" (Louw). Prophets weren't necessarily men who only foretold the future, but spoke the inspired words of God. The book of Daniel (composed by the man, the prophet Daniel) itself claims to have been written in the sixth century BC, indirectly. The author places himself in the midst of the exile, during "the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim..., Nebuchadnezzar, ..came to Jerusalem and besieged it." (Dan 1:1) This event we know to have occurred around 605 BC (Baldwin, pg. 17), and this being the earliest chronological event in the book, gives us a general timeframe for reference. The last chronological event written as history (as opposed to prophecy) is "the third year of Cyrus King of Persia," (Dan 10:1) which was 537 BC (pg. 17). This, together with the first date, gives us reason to believe that the book was probably written/compiled, according to the author, sometime quite soon after 537 BC, as he would have been somewhere over eighty years old (pg. 35).

The historical evidences stem from arguments that have been alleged that there are historical errors or inaccuracies in Daniel. The evidences are counter-arguments which use recent archaeological findings to prove that Daniel is correct, and our previous information was incomplete. The literary arguments, for the most part, stem from contentions that many of the words used in Daniel are from an era much later than the sixth century, therefore the book couldn't have been written at that time. The counter-arguments for this type also uses recent findings to prove that the words used by Daniel can definitely have come from the sixth century, therefore their contentions are invalid.

As for the historical arguments, there are four main contentions. The first has to do with the reference to Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 1 :1 . Critics using this argument see a conflict between this verse and Jeremiah 25:1, where he refers to "the fourth year of Jehoiakim," whereas Daniel 1:1 refers to the same event occurring in the "third year of the reign of Jehoiakim." This apparent error is actually a cultural difference of dating systems. Jeremiah, a Palestinian, naturally uses the Palestinian dating system, which would place Jehoiakim's fourth year in 605 BC Daniel, using the Babylonian system, places Jehoiakim's third year in 605 BC (Harrison, pg. 1112).

This apparent error can easily be used against critics, in support of the sixth century date of writing, with two arguments. The first, if the author of Daniel lived in the second century during the persecution, therefore in Palestine, one would naturally assume that he would use his native system of dating, and not the ancient, relatively unknown system of Babylonian dating. This would be especially true if the author's purpose was to encourage the people of his day who were currently suffering persecution also, as the proponents of the second century date of writing believe. The second part of this argument says that if Daniel were an unknown, but well knowledgeable Jew (as he would have had to have been to know Babylonian history as well as he does) he would have certainly followed in the footsteps of a well respected prophet. In writing his book he presumes to appear as a prophet himself, encouraging his people to persevere through persecution, he would undoubtedly try to make his work seem as Scriptural as possible. It is very likely that he himself would be referring to historical sources, such as Jeremiah, which uses the Palestinian dating system. Why would he have strayed from such an important and well-known prophet to use another, obscure dating system, which would appear to contradict Jeremiah, to his readers who read from, and knew the prophets work well (Waltke, pg. 326)?

The second main historical argument concerns Belshazzar. The mention of him as the last king of Babylon in Daniel 5:30 seemed to be an unreconcilable error to historians and critics. Secular sources have, since ancient times, stated that Nabonidus was the last king of Babylon (p. 328). Then, with the discovery of the Nabonidus Chronicle, Daniel was proven correct. In the verse account of Nabonidus, it is said that Nabonidus "entrusted the 'camp' to his eldest son ['Belshazzar] ...entrusted the kingship to him (Hasel, pg. 155) and himself ...he turned towards Tema in the West." This is fairly strong evidence that Belshazzar was indeed the coregent of Babylon in his father's absence, and was there when Babylon fell in 539 BC The mystery here, if one accepts the second century date of writing, is how the author knew of Nabonidus' leaving Belshazzar in charge, when all knowledge of Belshazzar was lost by at least 450 BC (Archer, pg. 289), until the discovery of the Nabonidus Chronicle. The only conclusion that one can reach, other than some other information which has been lost to us today, is that the author was indeed alive during the events, in 539 BC (Waltke, pg. 328).

The third main historical argument concerns the identity of Darius the Mede, mentioned in chapters five, six, nine, and eleven. The question is who this name refers to, not whether or not he really existed. Again, the Nabonidus Chronicle aids us in that it makes it clear that there was another ruler under Cyrus, over Babylon. It also refers to Ugbaru, the general who conquered Babylon, but who died shortly after his victory Shea, pg. 246). Whether Ugbaru was Darius the Mede is debatable, and other theories have been set forth by many distinguished scholars. The two other, major theories identify him as Cyrus himself (DJ Wiseman, JG Baldwin), or as Gubaru (JC Whitcomb, RK Harrison, and G. Archer).

The fourth and final historical argument is based on whether or not Daniel 11:21-45, and/or the book as a whole are about Antiochus Epiphanes. While most people do indeed believe that at least a part of chapter eleven deals with Antiochus Epiphanes, there are many who don't think that any part of Daniel refers to Antiochus. Of those who adhere to the former, again, the majority of those feel that the whole book is in some way related to Antiochus. That would be the purpose of writing the book if it were indeed written in the second century, to encourage those being persecuted by him. Chapters one through six, to them, refers to Antiochus versus those who faithfully serve the true and living God.

For those who believe the book was written in the second century, and the whole book in some way relates to Antiochus, one would be led to wonder what purpose chapter four could ever serve. SO far as we know, no affliction of the type ascribed here to Nebuchadnezzar ever afflicted Antiochus. Nor would it be very encouraging for the Jews to know that their persecutor, after going mad and apparently dropping out of the scene for awhile would come back to torment them. True, Nebuchadnezzar is seen as having repented in the end, but this in no way parallels reality, or even chapter eleven, which has him desecrating and destroying God's creation until his pitiful death (Gooding, pg. 43-51).

There are many other places in Daniel which seem to have no parallel to, or connections with Antiochus, or any other events surrounding that era. It is the most reasonable assumption to make, that chapters one through six refer to the exilic times alone. Besides the facts that there is such great detail about the exilic period, more than can be found in any other literature since then (Wiseman, pg. 263), there is too little consistent parallel with the Sitz im Leben of the Maccabean Age. Baldwin sums it up this way: "But the Neo-Babylonian or early Persian periods best account for the exact information about the Babylonian empire which we have shown to be preserved in the stories (Baldwin, pg. 37).

Others contend that even chapter eleven does not refer to Antiochus. This debate has gone on since at least the time of the church fathers. Hippolytus and Theodotian felt that verses 21-35 did indeed refer to Antiochus, but that verses 36-45 refer to the Antichrist (this is the view held by the majority of scholars today; Yamauchi, pg. 16-17. ) Jerome has no reference to Antiochus and had verses 21-45 referring to the Antichrist. Then Chrysostom held that all of chapter eleven deals with the Antichrist (Baldwin, pg. 199). This entire issue gets very complex at this point, delving into the various eschatologies and theologies that have been interpreted from (or into) Scripture. The passage itself is difficult, and gives no clear indication of how it is to be interpreted. For example, there is no transition between verses 35-36 to differentiate a change of personage here, but for one, the end that apparently comes to Antiochus in 11:45 is not what secular history says became of him. Secondly, if Antiochus did die as 11:45 implies, then there should also have supposedly been a drastic intervention into history by God, namely, the resurrection (12:1-3; Baldwin, "Is there Pseudonymity in the Bible?" pg. 10.).

This brings us to the second type of evidence, that of the literary styles and qualities, and the actual words used. The three main defenses/arguments focus on the Qumram data, Daniel's canonicity, its genre, and vocabulary.

As for the recent Qumram findings, many manuscripts of Daniel were found, in three different caves at Qumram (Baldwin, pg. 73-74). To determine an "earliest date" for those manuscripts, we need to compare them with manuscripts with dates that are known. Takamitsu Muraoka did a study on the Aramaic of 11QtJob mss, and of 1QapGen, and found that the 11QtJob mss is closer to the Aramaic of the Old Testament than the 1QapGen. His conclusion is that the 11QtJob should be dated between 250-150 BC (Muraoka, pg. 425-443). Next, Robert Vasholz determined that the mss of Daniel are older than the 11QtJob. How much older he can't be certain, but older none-the-less (Vasholz, pg. 320), which probably pushes the date of writing before the date deemed necessary by most Maccabean Theorists (167-165 BC; Baldwin, pg. 35) .

As for canonicity, Daniel is currently placed in the Kethubhim, the latest of the Jewish canonical parts, rather than in the Prophets, where many critics feel Daniel should have been placed if it were truly written in the sixth century. For one thing, there are very old books placed in the Kethubhim, such as Job, the Psalms, and the writings of Solomon (Archer, pg. 380). A second point is that as for being a prophet, Daniel wasn't a prophet in the strict Hebraic sense of the word. Their sense was "a spiritual mediator between God and a theocratic community," as Isaiah, Amos, or Jeremiah (Harrison, pg. 1123), but Daniel was a statesman for various pagan governments. So assuming that Daniel was written in the sixth century BC, before the Prophet' canon was closed, it seems highly likely that Daniel probably wouldn't have been placed in it anyway. Another point about where Daniel is placed in the canon, Josephus placed Daniel in among the thirteen prophets/historians including most of the books from Joshua to the book of the twelve prophets in Against Apion 1:40 (Bartlett, pg. 176-178). Daniel wasn't placed in the Kethubhim until the fourth 32 century AD (as opposed to the Prophet canon; Whitcomb, pg. 263).

RK Harrison, of the Maccabean dating theory: "Such a period of composition is in any event absolutely precluded by the evidence from Qumran partly because there are no indications whatever that the sectaries compiled any of the Biblical manuscripts recovered..., and partly because there would, in the latter event, have been insufficient time for Maccabean composition to be circulated, venerated, and accepted as canonical Scripture by a Maccabean sect" (Harrison, pg. 1126-1127)

The genre and vocabulary are the final arguments discussed here against the exilic date of writing for Daniel. These arguments stem from three languages: Greek, Persian, and Aramaic. As for the Greek vocabulary, there is much evidence that the Near East was affected by Greek influence before Alexander the Great (336 BC). In fact, "an avalanche of evidence has demonstrated the presence of Greek language in Semitic milieu long before the sixth century BC" (Vasholz, pg. 316). The Hebrew word for Greeks, YAWAN, for settlements of lonia on the western coast of Turkey indicates some type of contact before 1,000 BC (Yamauchi, "Daniel and Contacts Between the Aegean and the Near East Before Alexander," pg. 40. ). Greeks entered the Near East by the ninth century BC, built a temple by c. 675 BC, and Greek pottery was found there, in abundance, dating to the seventh century BC A. Leo Oppenheim discovered two documents dating from 550 BB, and 551 BC, describing trade between the Neo-Babylonians of the Near East, and the merchants of 37 (Greek) Tyre, and Yamana (Oppenhiem, pg. 236-254). The only Greek words that have seriously come into question are the names of three musical instruments (Dan 3:5,7, 10, 15), which were said to be used to worship Nebuchadnezzar. These three are the harp, sackbut, and psalter, and are actually all of Mesopotamian origin. These would have certainly been fit to be used in such a ceremony. RK Harrison argues that none of the preceding three instruments are problematic, as far as the dating of the Greek, or placement of them in Daniel (Harrison, pg. 1126). The conclusion from the Greek words is that one need not necessarily assume a Post-Alexander date for Daniel, but it is possible to have been written in the sixth century.

There are also Persian loan-words and genre in Daniel. All of these words have been determined to be of the Old Persian, or Achaemedian tongue (539-332 BC; Vasholz, pg. 316ff; Wiseman, pg. 117). Some would wonder why this Israelite would be using Persian in his book, and how he would know it. The answer is -that Cyrus was a Persian, and Daniel being the gifted statesman and fast learner that he was (Dan 1:4, 6:28), he would have to had learn Persian to retain his position (Waltke, pg. 323-324). Also, the word Chaldean is contested, as it is used in a dual manner that is not used anywhere else in the Old Testament. It is commonly used in the ethnic sense of a Chaldean, but in Daniel it is used in an ethnic sense, and also in a restricted sense of one who is a magician or sorcerer. This apparent anachronism is no longer a problem, as we have discovered that Herodotus (c. 450 BC) in Persian Wars, uses Chaldean in both senses, and accepted that their religious practices went back at least as far as Cyrus (Harrison, pg. 1113).

As for the Aramaic words, 90% of them are found in texts of the fifth century BC or earlier (Vasholz, pg. 315). Rosenthal's studies have led him to conclude that the "Aramaic employed in Daniel was that which grew up in the courts and chancellors from the seventh century BC, and subsequently became widespread in the Near East" (Waltke, pg. 322-323). Robert Vasholz says: " Many morphological forms were deemed ' late' ...have been established as early as the eighth to the fifth centuries BC [by the Elephantine papyri of the sixth century and Old Aramaic treaty texts from Sefire]," (Vasholz, pg. 316). Further, some syntactical forms found in Daniel did not survive past the fifth century BC, for example the preposition Ie before a king's name, and the "Assur Ostracon (seventh century BC) which agrees with the word order in Daniel ."

As a final note on the literary style, AK Grayson's Babylonian historical-Literary Texts, demonstrated, according to Baldwin, that in style, form, and rationale there is a striking resemblance [between parts of Daniel and tablets of ancient Babylonian prophecy] which it is by no means easy to account for knowledge of this [Babylonian] cuneiform literature in the second century Palestine. [But] Israel would have had Babylonian influence on all sides during the exile" (Baldwin, "Some Literary Affinities of Daniel," pg. 99).

It is based on this evidence that I believe that the book of Daniel was written in sixth century Babylonia, not second century Greece. Part of the issue at hand is not merely the dating of an ancient religious text, but the hermeneutical foundations of a religion. Judaism and Christianity are founded on the supernatural workings of a personal God who acts in human history. Within this tradition, there is the assumption in most traditions that God is in control of human history, and is knowledgable about human future. Based on this assumption, it is possible to allow that the Book of Daniel is not a pseudepigraphal book written to to encourage the second Century Jews, but a book written by the Prophet Daniel to the kings of the country which had taken his people captive in a foreign land. With this as a possible interpretation of Daniel the conclusion regarding the second half of the book is that the events described were one of the rare accounts of detailed fore-telling in Scripture by a prophet, as opposed to the more common forth-telling."

COMPREHENSIVE BIBLIOGRAPHY
Archer, Gleason. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1982.
______________. Survey of OT Introduction . Chicago: Moody Press, 1974.
Armstrong, Wayne. A Commentary on the Book of Daniel. Lincoln: Lincoln Christian College, 1988.
Baldwin, Joyce G. Daniel. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1978.
_____________. "Is there Pseudonymity in the Old Testament?" Themelios 4(1978-1979): 6-12.
_____________. "Some Literary Affinities of the Book of Daniel." The Tyndale Bulletin 30(1979): 77-99.
Bartlett, John R. Jews in the Hellanistic World. New York: Cambridge Press 1985.
Clause, Robert G., ed. The Meaning of the Millenium. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1977.
Coxon, Peter W. "The 'List' Genre and Narrative Style in the Court Tales of Daniel." Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 35(1986): 95-121.
DiLella, Alexander A. "The One in Human Likeness and the Holy Ones of the Most High in Daniel." Catholic Bible Quarterly 39 (1977): 1-10.
Ferch, Arthur J. "The Book of Daniel and the Maccabean Thesis." Andrews University Seminary Studies 21 (1983): 129-141.
Gooding, David. "The Literary Structure of Daniel and its Implications." Tyndale Bulletin 32 (1981): 43-51.
Harrison, R.K. Introduction to the Old Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans Publishing Co. 1969.
Hasel, Gerhard F. "The Book of Daniel: Evidences Relating to Persons and Chronology." Andrews University Seminary Studies 19 (1981): 211-225.
Hasel, Gerhard F. "The First and Third Years of Belshazzar." Andrews University Seminary Studies 15 (1977): 153-168.
Hoehner, Harold W. "Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ: Daniel's Seventy Weeks and New Testament Chronology." Bibliotneca Sacra 132 (1975): 47-65.
Millard, A.R. "Daniel 1-6 and History." THe Evangelical Quarterly 49 (1977): 67-73.
Mosca, Paul G. "Ugarit adn Daniel 7: A Missing Link." Biblica 67 (1986): 496-508.
Muraoka, Takamitsu. "Aramaic of the Old Targum of Job from Qumran Cave XI. " Journal of Jewish Studies 25 (1974): 425-443.
Oppenheim, A. Leo. "Essay on Overland Trade in the First
Millenium B.C." Journal of Cuneiform Studies 21 (1983): 6-12.
Rowley, H.H. The Relevance of the Apocalypse. London: Lutterworth Press, 1950.
Shea, William H. "Darius the Mede: An Update." Andrews University Seminary Studies 20 (1982): 229-247.
_____________. "The Neo-Babylonian Historical Setting for Daniel 7." Andrews University Seminary Studies 24 (1986): 31-36.
Vasholz, Robert 1. "Qumran and the Dating of Daniel." Journal of the Evangelical Theological Socieety 21 (1978): 315-321.
Waltke, Bruce K. "The Date of the Book of Daniel." Bibliotheca Sacra 133 (1976): 319-329.
Whitcomb, J.C. Jr. "Daniel, Book of." New Bible Dictionary(1982): 262-265. "'.
Wiseman, D.J. "Babylonia." New Bible Dictionary (1982):114-119.
Yamauchi, Edwin M. "Daniel and Contacts Between the Aegean and the Near East Before Alexander." The Evangelical Quarterly 53 (1981): 37-47.
Yamauchi, Edwin M. "Hermeneutical Issues in the Book of Daniel." Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 23 (1980): 13-21.
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Jeramy Townsley

**The LION will ROAR** · 08-04-2011, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by cultea View Post

I suggest you read this

Septuagint - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

and then start a thread titled �Ptolemies- The Traitors�

Greek and Forgery comes hand in hand...

maybe I should post this thread into here..

Forgeries in Modern Greek History - Macedonian Truth Forum

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=83

This will probably be a difficult thread to fill, but I will begin it with something I found by accident. This thread is about exposing deliberate attempts by the New Greek State to forge aspects of its history. It is interesting because it is most often actual Greeks exposing the lies of the Greek State. Remember, at