The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    Can't wait!

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    • Liberator of Makedonija
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 1597

      Turkish political representatives from Western Thrace meet with members of the 'Krste Misirkov' association near Voden to discuss minority issues in Greece:

      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

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      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        "An unexpected insight in the history of Crete was provided by the IBD analysis. The results showed that the Cretans share high IBD with Western (CEU), Central (German, Polish), Northern (CEU, Scandinavian), and Eastern (Ukranian, Russian) European populations. Indeed, in previous studies, there has been an excess of IBD sharing reported between Eastern Europe and the Greeks, while an admixture event has been inferred using Poland as a representative population of the eastern component in the Greek population (Hellenthal et al., 2014; Ralph & Coop, 2013). Especially the results of Hellenthal et al. (2014) used GLOBETROTTER to infer (under a pulse‐admixture model that has the same assumptions as ALDER) that Greek DNA could be described as the mixture of 37% DNA from a Polish‐like source and 63% from a Cypriot‐like source occurring sometime between 718–1138 C.E.; our analyses here support these findings."

        "The IBD sharing between Cyprus and Northern/Eastern Europeans could be explained if, as a result of the expansion in Asia Minor of Turkish states in 12th–13th centuries C.E., Byzantine populations, which included Scythians and Slavs, migrated to Cyprus."

        "If the “tribes” that moved to the depopulated Crete included Hellenized Goths (Gothogreeks; Ostrogorsky, 1969; Turtledove, 1982) and Hellenized Slavs (Charanis, 1961) from Asia Minor, the IBD data could be explained."

        Last edited by Carlin; 04-03-2022, 11:24 PM.

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        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          Page 8:

          "These three millions of Armenians, Ottoman subjects, are distributed as follows: 400,000 at Constantinople and in the Balkan peninsula, 600,000 in Asia Minor and in the plain of Cilicia, 670,000 in Armenia Minor (...), and 1,300,000 in Turkish Major Armenia..."

          URL:

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          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            The Armenian historian, Sebeos (ch. 6), relates that at a much earlier date the Roman emperor, Maurice, had a scheme for the wholesale deportation to Thrace of the Armenian population living in his dominions. He at the same time proposed to Chosrow that he should deport the Armenians under his rule.

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            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              The "Byzantine" army at Lebounion included a tagma of 5,000 'mountain people' whom Anna Comnene calls Areimanioi. Some have proposed that those were Vlachs, who call themselves Armani.

              Areimanis appears in classical texts, such as Strabo, with the meaning of "full of warlike frenzy" (possessed by the god Ares), as correctly translated in the english edition of the Alexiad. Anna was very fond of such classical references, by which she wanted to show her sophistication. This, however, does not exclude the possibility of those warriors being Vlachs, as they are said to have come from the mountains.

              It is known that on the eve Lebounion, the emperor recruited heavily from among the Bulgarians and Vlachs in southern Thrace (an area under the command of N. Melissenos).


              -- Page 140, A. Magdearu, "Byzantine Military Organization on the Danube, 10th-12th Centuries"

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              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                - For the late 1400s, it is said that Zakynthos and Kephallonia were largely uninhabited at the time of the Venetian take-over in the late 1400s.

                - 15th century Peloponnese: According to the first Ottoman fiscal documents the peninsula may have had more Albanian than "Greek" inhabitants.


                Pages 192-193: "Coinage and Money in Medieval Greece 1200-1430 (2 vols.)", by Julian Baker
                Last edited by Carlin; 04-16-2022, 12:16 PM.

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                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  - "The documents of the Latin Archdiocese of Kephallonia record the presence of the Vlachs in the Ionian Islands in 1274."

                  - "Under the reign of Sultan Mahomed II (1451-1480), the Vlachs represented about 40% of the population of the Peloponnese."

                  Page 21, footnotes

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                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Constantine Buhayer (University of Westminster, London) states that "many of the Greeks of Crimea were Ellinovlachi".

                    Originally posted by Onur View Post
                    The so-called Crimean Greeks were native Turkish speakers with Tatar dialect, all of them without any exception. Already, when they came to Greece, they didn't know a word of Greek.

                    Their origin is quite clear. We even have books of the western European travelers from 1390 AD which notes the existence of christian Tatars in Crimea, converted by both Byzantine orthodox and western catholic missionaries.

                    Crimea has been inhabited by Goths [`till 17th century], Turks [`till 20th century] and slavic speaking Ruthenians [to become Ukrainians laters]. I don't think there was any Greeks or Vlachs in there throughout history.
                    Vyron Karidis, The Mariupol Greeks: Tsarist Treatment of an ethnic minority ca. 1778-1859 - Pages 66 & 67:

                    - "By the late 1770s the Russians, probably in an attempt to weaken the theoretically independent Crimean Khanate, encouraged a great part of its non-Muslim population (Christian Armenians, Georgians, Vlachs and Crimean Greeks) to emigrate to the steppes of Azov."

                    - "The exodus started in July 1778. To Alexander Suvorov's report, who played a leading part in the Christian emigration, 'Greeks, Georgians and Vlachs,' left from 68 various parts of the Crimean peninsula..."


                    PS:
                    And here's how I came to that conclusion. http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/History/FilikiEteria.html Philiki Eteria was a "greek" secret society that started before the "greek" war for independence. The founders were 3 "greek" merchants from Odessa. Their names are 42-years old Nikolaos Skoufas
                    Last edited by Carlin; 05-14-2022, 09:30 PM.

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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Testimony of Robert Curzon (1810-1873), of 1849, for his visits, in 1834, to Epirus, Macedonia and Thessaly where he met "Albanians who spoke the Vlach language".

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                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        In 1553, in Salona (now Amfissa), Agrafa and Thessaly lived Vlachs who "were both good Christians and good people."

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                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          - According to John Sibthorp (1758 – 1796; in Walpole's Memoirs, p. 141.), "a wandering tribe of Nomads" on the other side of Greece drive their flocks from the mountains of Thessaly into the plains of Attica and Bæotia to pass the winter.

                          - Testimony from 1423: Euboea or Evia was also inhabited by Vlachs (Vlachi). (Μνημεία Ελληνικής Ιστορίας - Documents Inedits Relatif a l'Histoire de la Grece au Moyen Age Publias sous les Auspices de la Chambre des Deputes de Grece par C.N. Sathas, Premiere Serie, Documents Tires des Archives de Venice (1400-1500) Tome III, Paris MDCCCLXXXII [1882]).

                          [Valachos/Vlachi lived in Zitouni (Lamia) and Negroponte (Evia).]

                          - 1470: the Duke of Messina in NE Sicily was a Vlach (Ulacho).

                          - 1481: Koroni, in Morea, was inhabited by Vlachi.
                          Last edited by Carlin; 06-17-2022, 08:19 AM.

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                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Leake mentions Vlach villages in Mystras (Peloponnese).

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                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              BREAKING: Recently a paper came out the on genetics of the Classical period of the Greek army. Here are some of the samples (closets) that has been mentioned as mercenaries

                              1. Sarmatians
                              2. Balto-Slavs
                              3. BA Caucasus-like

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                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                                BREAKING: Recently a paper came out the on genetics of the Classical period of the Greek army. Here are some of the samples (closets) that has been mentioned as mercenaries

                                1. Sarmatians
                                2. Balto-Slavs
                                3. BA Caucasus-like

                                https://mobile.twitter.com/nrken19/s...DRpZ3-wOcrAAAA
                                Chart showing the Y-DNA haplogroups among the Hellenic mercenaries from the recent paper:

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