The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Pelister]

Who said Orthodox Turks don't exist.

Household Formation in 19th-Century Central Anatolia: The Case Study of a Turkish-Speaking Orthodox Christian Community
by Irini Renieri
International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 34, No. 3 (Aug., 2002), pp. 495-517
Published by: Cambridge University Press

[TerraNova]

Who said Orthodox Turks don't exist.

Household Formation in 19th-Century Central Anatolia: The Case Study of a Turkish-Speaking Orthodox Christian Community
by Irini Renieri
International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 34, No. 3 (Aug., 2002), pp. 495-517
Published by: Cambridge University Press

Any link ??

[Risto the Great]

Yeah sure here it is:

https://www.macedoniansswonderwhethe...dquestions.com

[Pelister]

Any link ??

I couldn't get an electronic link for this on JSTOR.

[Daskalot]

This thread was a great read! Bump!

[Carlin]

We learn from Tacitus that even in his time the race of Athenians was extinct.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=9hcMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=Tacitus+Athenians+extinct&source=bl&ots=bipSci5tlM&sig=mQJujKJ_duYT6pZE5CsA9RvVNFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_0f_TqqaK-TL0QGvqbyDAg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now Cneius Piso, hurrying to the execution of his purposes, terrified the city of Athens by a tempestuous entry, and reproached them in a severe speech, with oblique censure of Germanicus, that, debasing the dignity of the Roman name, he had paid excessive court, not to the Athenians, by so many slaughters long since extinct, but to the then mixed scum of nations there

[makedonche]

Carlin
Great find! Well done, interesting reading indeed!

[Trajkovski]

Another interesting read .

http://www.mmo.gr/pdf/publications/other_publications/migrance31Abd.pdf

[Soldier of Macedon]

We learn from Tacitus that even in his time the race of Athenians was extinct.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=9hcMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=Tacitus+Athenians+extinct&source=bl&ots=bipSci5tlM&sig=mQJujKJ_duYT6pZE5CsA9RvVNFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_0f_TqqaK-TL0QGvqbyDAg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now Cneius Piso, hurrying to the execution of his purposes, terrified the city of Athens by a tempestuous entry, and reproached them in a severe speech, with oblique censure of Germanicus, that, debasing the dignity of the Roman name, he had paid excessive court, not to the Athenians, by so many slaughters long since extinct, but to the then mixed scum of nations there

We should probably start building a collection of such quotes. Here are some more (from Pausanias):

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1063&highlight=corinth+inhabitants

Corinth is no longer inhabited by any of the old Corinthians, but by colonists sent out by the Romans……(2.1.2).

.......while Delos, once the common market of Greece, has no Delian inhabitants......(8.33.2).

And this is just in Roman times. There would be even more such reference before and after this period.

[Carlin]

- Strabonis geographicorum epitome:

Unknown author, known simply as Epitomiser of Strabo. Lived during the 10th century AD. According to him, at the end of the 10th century AD, Slavs formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece, and the Peloponnese.

"Και νυν δε πάσαν Ηπειρων και Ελλάδα σχεδόν και Πελοποννησο και Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται" (p. 574):

"...Scythi-Slavs inhabit all Epirus, almost entire Greece, Peloponnese and Macedonia."

- Menander asserts in 581 AD that Slavs, in great numbers (100,000), devastated Greece.

- In 588/9 AD, according to the statement of Evagrius, all Greece was laid waste with fire and sword.

- A letter of Patriarch Nicolaus, addressed to Alexius the First, mentions that in the year 807 AD Slavs (and Avars) had held possession of the Peloponnese since 589 AD. Apparently, they had made themselves so independent that no Roman/"Byzantine" connected with Imperial administration then dared to enter the country/Peloponnese.

- According to Roman/"Byzantine" traveler Cananus, writing in 1418 AD, the Slavonic tongue was spoken in Zygos (Exo Mani), i.e. the area roughly between Itylo and Kalamata. Many scholars believe that Maniots of this area were descended from the Slavonic Melingians.

- Goths devastate and depopulate Greece in 3rd Century AD.

The following passages are taken directly from Edward Gibbon's "The History of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/2/5/7/1/25717/25717-h/files/731/731-h/gib1-10.htm#2HCH0004

When we are informed that the third fleet, equipped by the Goths in the ports of Bosphorus, consisted of five hundred sails of ships, 120 our ready imagination instantly computes and multiplies the formidable armament; but, as we are assured by the judicious Strabo, 121 that the piratical vessels used by the barbarians of Pontus and the Lesser Scythia, were not capable of containing more than twenty-five or thirty men we may safely affirm, that fifteen thousand warriors, at the most, embarked in this great expedition. Impatient of the limits of the Euxine, they steered their destructive course from the Cimmerian to the Thracian Bosphorus. When they had almost gained the middle of the Straits, they were suddenly driven back to the entrance of them; till a favorable wind, springing up the next day, carried them in a few hours into the placid sea, or rather lake, of the Propontis. Their landing on the little island of Cyzicus was attended with the ruin of that ancient and noble city. From thence issuing again through the narrow passage of the Hellespont, they pursued their winding navigation amidst the numerous islands scattered over the Archipelago, or the Aegean Sea. The assistance of captives and deserters must have been very necessary to pilot their vessels, and to direct their various incursions, as well on the coast of Greece as on that of Asia. At length the Gothic fleet anchored in the port of Piraeus, five miles distant from Athens, 122 which had attempted to make some preparations for a vigorous defence. Cleodamus, one of the engineers employed by the emperor's orders to fortify the maritime cities against the Goths, had already begun to repair the ancient walls, fallen to decay since the time of Scylla. The efforts of his skill were ineffectual, and the barbarians became masters of the native seat of the muses and the arts. But while the conquerors abandoned themselves to the license of plunder and intemperance, their fleet, that lay with a slender guard in the harbor of Piraeus, was unexpectedly attacked by the brave Dexippus, who, flying with the engineer Cleodamus from the sack of Athens, collected a hasty band of volunteers, peasants as well as soldiers, and in some measure avenged the calamities of his country.

But this exploit, whatever lustre it might shed on the declining age of Athens, served rather to irritate than to subdue the undaunted spirit of the northern invaders. A general conflagration blazed out at the same time in every district of Greece. Thebes and Argos, Corinth and Sparta, which had formerly waged such memorable wars against each other, were now unable to bring an army into the field, or even to defend their ruined fortifications. The rage of war, both by land and by sea, spread from the eastern point of Sunium to the western coast of Epirus. The Goths had already advanced within sight of Italy, when the approach of such imminent danger awakened the indolent Gallienus from his dream of pleasure.

But as their numbers were gradually wasted by the sword, by shipwrecks, and by the influence of a warm climate, they were perpetually renewed by troops of banditti and deserters, who flocked to the standard of plunder, and by a crowd of fugitive slaves, often of German or Sarmatian extraction, who eagerly seized the glorious opportunity of freedom and revenge. In these expeditions, the Gothic nation claimed a superior share of honor and danger; but the tribes that fought under the Gothic banners are sometimes distinguished and sometimes confounded in the imperfect histories of that age; and as the barbarian fleets seemed to issue from the mouth of the Tanais, the vague but familiar appellation of Scythians was frequently bestowed on the mixed multitude.


I will let the reader conclude whether the Gothic invasion had a 'significant' or a 'minor' impact on Greece. Gibbon himself states troops of Greek deserters and fugitive slaves, which joined the Goths, were of German or Sarmatian (likely Slavic) extraction.

[Carlin]

"Today's Greeks are a racial mixture of Slavs and ArvanitoVlachs."

Run a google translate on the following:

http://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=198554

Google Translate:

The celebrated work of the famous German historian Jacob Philip Falmerafer (Jakob Philip Fallmerayer 1790-1861) "On the origin of the modern Greeks" printed in Germany in 1835, and was released years ago timid in Greece after 150 years, it never occurred to the Greek bookstore shelves.

The cause troublesome for the incumbent but fully documented scientific view Falmerafer that the current residents of Greece does not have any connection with the ancients. But this important work became well known abroad when presented in the Bavarian Academy of Sciences The Falmerafer showed that the erstwhile glorious ancient Greek nation ekmidenisthike finally in 589 AD during the reign of Roman emperor Maurice (582-602), due to widespread invasion Avaroslavon that flooded the Balkans as evidenced by the Syrian historian of the seventh century AD., Evagrius by Scholastic.

The blow that killed the Greek population came in 746 AD with the devastating epidemic of plague that decimated the few remaining Greeks. The latter is confirmed by the Byzantine Emperor Constantine / legal Porfyrogenito (905-969 AD), which recounts the "Topic." Significant historical source for ekslavismo of Greece is the famous period of Monemvasia. All names of the Peloponnese was Slavic until the 19th century. In 1840, a few years after the founding of the modern Greek state, mutated into Greek. The Falmerafer stated in Greece in 1835 which consisted of the Peloponnese and Central Greece ie Roumeli and Moria. The "heretic"

This project received the curse of the official Greek state and the modern Greeks podigetoumenis class of intellectuals who denounced the grave insults. Outside he found many supporters who created School. In the 6th century. AD numerous Slavic tribes flocked peacefully Byzantium. The Slavic settlements arrived at the south Peloponnese. Smolianoi, Rinchinoi, Sagoudates, Velezites, Ezerites and Milingoi were some of the Slavic leaves settled permanently in Byzantine Greece finally lost all traces of Hellenism.

Neither a single drop of blood, an original Greek blood, it runs in the veins of the Christian inhabitants of present-day Greece. A terrible storm scattered to the farthest corner of the Peloponnese, a new race akin to the great tribe of the Slavs. The Scythians, Slavs, Illyrians-Albanians, are akin to the Serbs and Bulgarians, people are basically those who now call Greeks. The Milingoi was Slavic tribe that settled in the 7th AD century. in the southern Peloponnese. Mostly on the western slopes of Taygetus. The same period Ezerites, a cousin of race, settled in the eastern areas of the prefecture of Laconia, the plain of Helos to Cape Maleas and some of them in Achaia in the area now called Nezeros. Like most Slavs lived as farmers and farmers.

According to Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos lived mischievous and unruly, and created problems for locals with looting and arson made. Revolted several times against the Byzantines. The 842 was sent by Michael C in Theophylact Bryennios to subdue the rioters issue Peloponnesus, among whom were the Milingoi and Ezerites, who were subjugated and forced to pay annual tax of 60 and 300 gold coins respectively. The Their last revolt, during the reign of Romanos I Lakapinou have an adverse outcome. The 921 General Krinitis Ploughs ordered to subjugate them. The campaign lasted from spring until November of that year. The Milingoi defeated and forced to pay annual tribute to the empire 540 gold coins, an amount later reduced. Were heathens and Christianization began in the 10th AD century involving fundamentalist missionaries, like the "Nikon Repent." The Milingoi resisted the conquest of Laconia by Fraggades shortly after the Fourth Crusade (1204). The famous castle of Mystras Taygetus built in 1249 by Fraggades prince of Achaea William II Villehardouin to subordinate Milingon.

Avars are a people Touranikis Eurasian origin, cognate with Bulgarians, Huns and Turks, invaded the Roman Balkans in the 6th century . AD accompanied by numerous hordes of Slavs who were the vassals. Kitida the Avars is today western China. In historical sources the Avars and Slavs Indo-European origin were identified from the fourth century. AD. The universal installation of the Slavs in Peloponnesus marked the final disappearance of the ancient Greek nation from the historical stage. In 532 AD the Slavs subjugated the original Kotrigourous, a people Ounovoulgariko and begin raids on the Balkan. The Emperor Justinian succeeded by diplomatic methods to stay for a while a generalized invasion. But in 540 AD a new massive descent brought them up to the isthmus of Corinth. In 558 AD, in alliance with the ruler of Kotrogouron Zaberga threatened Constantinople itself where refuted by General Belisarios. 578 The subordinated to the Avars and begin orderly invasions into Roman territory conquering several cities in Thrace and Ilyrrias. Finally in 600 AD the Slavs left stranded in their new homes by the Khan of the Avars, however, manage to survive and impose primitive culture in Byzantium. Followed by new waves of peaceful this time of Slavic colonization in Greece and the Peloponnese, which continued until the year 746 AD, so have stopped because of the terrible famine of that year. Indeed, the time of Monemvasia is a valuable historical source written by an anonymous historian at the end the 10th century. Based on historical sources, especially in earlier centuries history Evagriou Scholasticus of Menandrus and Miracles of St. Demetrius (6th cent. AD). Graphically recounts how the massive Avaroslaviki colonization of the Greek area, mainly in the Peloponnese in the 6th century AD. and subsequent events domination of Slavic nation in Byzantine lands of the Peloponnese in 218 years. Scholastic Evagrius (536-594) was a church historian Syrian origin. The story he wrote for the period from 431 to 594. The methodical examination of the sources used and the quote documents from the archives of the Patriarchate of Antioch makes his work valuable historical source for the sixth century. AD. The rare Chronicle discovered in manuscript form in the Georgian Iviron of Mount Athos and first published in 1909 by Professor Spyridon Lambros Byzantine Studies (1851-1919) entitled "Iviritis census Chronicle of Monemvasia."

[Soldier of Macedon]

A. Aegidis, I Ellas horis prosfiges, Athens 1930, pp. 168-169

At the time when Greek sovereignty was established over Macedonia, it was estimated that 57,4% of its population were 'foreign elements' and that the Greeks constituted 42.6% of the inhabitants, which is probably exaggerated because in the survey of 1912, for obvious reasons, many inhabitants of Macedonia were entered as Greeks, even though they did not hold themselves as such... It should not be forgotten that the minority that weighed the heaviest on the ethnologic scales of Macedonia was the Slavophone population.

[Daskalot]

Great information SoM, the name of the author and the name of the book in Greek is as follows; Α.Ι. Αιγίδης
"Η Ελλάς χωρίς τους πρόσφυγας". Good to have as a future reference.

[Soldier of Macedon]

According to Roman/"Byzantine" traveler Cananus, writing in 1418 AD, the Slavonic tongue was spoken in Zygos (Exo Mani), i.e. the area roughly between Itylo and Kalamata. Many scholars believe that Maniots of this area were descended from the Slavonic Melingians.

Carlin, do you the full quote of Cananus? Also, which scholars have tied the people of Mani to those who spoke a Slavonic language in the Peloponnese?

[Mygdon]

A. Aegidis, I Ellas horis prosfiges, Athens 1930, pp. 168-169

do you have the original quote in greek and can this book be purchased somewhere?