Forensic look on the Idea of God

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  • makedonin
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1668

    Good that we settle this Phile Mou.. Sorry not to read your post, your first few words have told me that I don't need to bother with you, which I already intendet to....

    If someone has interest in it, few poundering thoughts...

    Gods complaint about the scriptures,

    8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
    for we have the law of the LORD,"
    when actually the lying pen of the scribes
    has handled it falsely

    9 The wise will be put to shame;
    they will be dismayed and trapped.
    Since they have rejected the word of the LORD,
    what kind of wisdom do they have?
    Jeremiah 8:8-9
    Exactly my words, those who wrote those books, it is their words, not from God, cause even they can be deceived by God as Jeremiah was too:

    7 O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived ;
    you overpowered me and prevailed.
    I am ridiculed all day long;
    everyone mocks me.
    Jeremiah 20:7
    Ah the frustration of being nobody... There is the story about the dot: "The dot wanted to become someone, it has blown it self up and became a zero." The life story of a man.....

    So prophets are also deceived by God. Great thing to know when looking for the truth.
    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
    Ezekiel 14:9
    God was sending a lying spirits to his Prophets to mislead his people such as King Ahab:
    21 " 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
    " 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

    22 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

    2 Chronicles 18:21-22, 1 Kings 22:21-23

    So there is a question, are all meant to be saved, and is God the father giving his all the best to save them by revealing his word in their hearts as Jeremiah 31:33 said he will do for the Israelites:
    "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
    after that time," declares the LORD.
    "I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.

    Jeremiah 31:33
    that would be the way to go and not drowning all in a flood or throwing everybody in hell. Cause remember, if God is allmighty, he surelly has the power to reveal his word to each and every soul on earth and save all, noone has to believe in lying scribes of the prophet, BUT

    that seems not to be the case exactly:

    They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
    Thessalonians 2:10-11

    so if you refuse to believe and ask for more explaination, since you know that the scriptures are anyways corrupt by the lying pen of the prophets, his word will not be revealed to you and written into your mind and heart, rather you will be decieved with more delusion and cast to believe into a lie,
    cause remember, if you are wicked, it is God that made you so, for his purpose:

    The Lord has made everything to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked for the day of calamity and evil.
    -- Proverbs 16:4
    Great thing, for as it is said:
    For many are called, but few are chosen--
    Matthew 22:14


    But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13


    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will -- Ephesians 1:4-5
    Bottom line, those who are chosen are chosen by God, no matter what, otherwise you do what you want to do, you will die or burn in hell if you please.

    And all those who boast to follow Christ, they can hope to be chosen an get lucky, cause they may have been called, but who knows if they are chosen or not cast to believe a lie.

    But if you don't like the chosen trip, you can go on and pick from the rest of the Repertoire, maybe you will get lucky and do the right pick:
    • Don't doubt.(There I go..)

      He that doubteth is damned. -- Romans 14:23
    • Turn yourself over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so your spirit may be saved. (Maybe I could considered this option, but I ain't fornicator, so I don't count.)

      It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you ... deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. -- 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
    • Become an Israeli citizen (Good option, it may work.)

      And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. -- Romans 11:26
    • Enter through the Jesus door.
      I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved. -- John 10:9
    • Enter at the strait gate.

      Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. -- Luke 13:23-24
    • Get saved by God's name.

      Save me, O God, by thy name. -- Psalm 54:1
    • Wash your wicked heart.
      Wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. -- Jeremiah 4:14
    • Ask your parents to beat you with a rod (I got that plenty, so maybe I am already saved!)

      Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. -- Proverbs 23:13-14
    • Hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and your own life (Die hard!)
      If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. -- Luke 14:26
    • Abandon your home and family for Jesus' name's sake.

      And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. -- Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30
    • Don't love your family more than Jesus (I fail here.)
      He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. -- Matthew 10:37
    • Do the commandments and teach others to do them (The teachin of others is hard.)

      Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:19
    • Belong to a household that has at least one believer. (My Sister believes, I may get lucky )

      And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. -- Acts 16:31
    • Hate your own life. (Thinking of all those suicides!)

      The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. John 12:25
    • Be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees.(Don't do what the priest does )

      Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:20
    • Be persecuted for righteousness sake.
      Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:10
    • Be pure in heart.

      Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. -- Matthew 5:8
    • Be meek.(There you go all those gun lovers...)
      When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. -- Psalm 76:9

      Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. -- Matthew 5:5
    • Just look at him.(First you have to find him...)

      Look unto me, and be ye saved. -- Isaiah 45:22
    • Wait for him.(Or just wait..)

      Wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee. -- Proverbs 20:22

      Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us. -- Isaiah 25:9
    • Burn your work.(Admins can you delete this thread and save me? Virtual fire, heh..)

      If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. -- 1 Corinthians 3:15

    So make the long story short, the Bible as whole has no real unified teaching.

    One can go into the bible an find what he want's to find (obviously others do the same and find their share as well, including me), that is why there is no One Christianity, but rather Christianities, Katolik, Orthodox, Protestand etc. etc. and don't forget those who were supressed by the official ones and could not become state sponsored them self such as Bogomils,Gnostics etc etc.
    They all disagree on how one should be saved or many other important issues, and if you look above you will see why, and that is not all, but the most concerning of all are those in the New Testament, and they obviously don't agree as well:
    • Believe the right things.
      A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28

      Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. -- Romans 5:1

      know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. -- Galatians 2:16

      For by grace are ye saved through faith. -- Ephesians 2:8
    • Work your way to heaven, do the Law.

      For you render to each one according to his works. -- Psalm 62:12

      For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. -- Matthew 16.27

      And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13

      Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. -- 2 Corinthians 11:15

      The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. -- 1 Peter 1:17

      I will give unto every one of you according to your works. -- Revelation 2:23
    • Do the Law and be faithful...
      What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? -- James 2:14, 17, 20, 24, 26

      Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- James 2:17

    Ah that lying pan of the scribes.......

    All this only for fair use......
    Last edited by makedonin; 09-22-2010, 09:03 AM.
    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.


    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      If you let the bible explain itself in a lot of places jesus is the revelator & he reveals what the prophecies & the intention is.The new testament gives a plain explanation what ithe bible is know looks like it's confusing to many.There are prophesies that many will fall by the wayside by false worship/beleifs about god not the few.The was to a man are foolish to go
      dIn the book of john it tells you that people when they die they don't go to heaven or hell.They just die & stay in their grave.Their future hope is first a resurrection to judgement & you will be judged on whether you get eternal life or death.Where death means you cease to exist.Also it says that jesus is the first born.that is christ is the only one born of god of the god family.IN future we are to become part of the god family in a ressurrection of the dead.First unto judgement then unto everlasting life.From what i have read the resurrection unto everlasting life is one of abundace,hapinees overflowing,no sickness,joy no bounds.Once you are part of the god family you will be steered by the holy spirit,you will have holy rigthous character.God will be dwelling in you with his holy spirit.We will be composed of the same thing as god.
      we will be made of spirit.(not matter)We have to do our bit accept jesus christ by beleiving in his gospel which means the message from god.God the father sent a message through his son the message is about mans destiny to become part of god,part of the god family.That is the kingdom of god on earth(not heaven).Jesus will be the king & he will regn as king of lords & lord of kings & he will reign in rightousness & truth.
      In this life we are told that the devil or satan controls the earth.He confuses & makes people doubt god,also sets the human heart to test god by asking silly questions about god.In this life we can't know everything but in the next life we will know everything there is to know about god.God has revealed himself in his son jesus.God for so loved the world (mandkind) that he gave his only begotten son in order to save mankind from himself.This means that everything has a divine purpose man was devised so that god can reproduce himself.God is not limited to 3 personalities god the father,god the son'& god the holy spirit.The holy spirit is the power of god.God has allways existed he wasn't created.He is the life giving,he has made all things & things we don't know about & things we can't see.Do not limit god because we don't know a lot of things.As god reveals that his ways aren't our ways & vice versa.Jesus was his son & he died for mans sin.Sin cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven Jesus is the way to inherit the kingdom of heaven.
      Whilst salvation is available for free we have to do our part as well.We have to do our part as christians with the right behaviour,or attitude.What will save people is if god gives them the gift of life.We dont have the gift of life now it will be in the future.
      If we have doubt & ask unanswerable questions that is not going to help us.Remember the doubting thomases they wanted proof that jesus was crucified & didn't beleive wjhat he heard that he was alive.In other words they did not have the faith in jesus that he was their saviour.
      What did jesus say about the children,he said you have to be like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven.It's not rocket science to know every living being feels now is not the time to live life.Some people die young,they don't have a chance some people die old so they can't live long enough.Now in the life of a feles & blood human existance is not the time.Man's hope is in the knowledge & existence of a loving god.Who says he will make it happen.Also if people read the lords prayer & understand it to many it's just words but to some there is a meaning.Our father who art in heaven (only god is in heaven(god the father & god the son & god the holy spirit (power of god).hallowed be thy name gods name to be revered.Thy kindom come gods plan for mankind to become as god (have everlasting life given)man will be composed of the holy spirit not matter & be part of the god family.His kindom come on earth(not heaven)His kindom is to come in the future.God is asked to forgive our sins so that we can enter his kingdom,it's all part of gods plan to save mankind.
      He says heaven & hell may pass away but my words will not passaway (that's god's words in the bible)
      If we don't beleive the god's word in the bible we don't have any hope at all.There is no road to eternal life in the future.Today god chooses what he want's to reveal.he doesn't need to reveal himself to be tested by mankind.BUt he says i'm god there is not another etc.He is the divine ruler of the universe have you ever contemplated the huuuge expanse of the universe &what's beyond???You only got to marvel at it.With god we have a future because he intends on reproducing himself it says in genesis we are in the image of god but composed of matter.Matter decays,or changes from one state to another.In the next life we will be composed by spirit which never decays,spirit lives on forever & never decays.I'm reminded of the saying in the new testament of how jesus tells people it would hard for a rch man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a poor man.He said the rich man set his heart on wealth wheras the poor man st his heart on things of god so he is going to make it in the scheme of things,he is going to get everlasting life & enter the kingdom of god.The kingdom of god is the divine family of god that is mans destiny to become like god.As isaid if you take away what god is trying to accomplish with man,man has no purpose in life but to live & die.But with gods love there are a lot of possibilities of hope & hapiness.I think that is too valuable to passup.It says only the fool have said there is no god in their heart.But if we set our heart on god we have a future There is a huuuge difference.What a "waste" of time people trying to derail god by asking silly & stupid questions to test god.Today god is not god of this world but the devil who is casting doubts about god.He is doing the same thing he triesto test god especially jesus who was on the mountain fasting for 40 day's & nites,the devil telling him

      that if he could only jump from the huge height he tested him as to who he is prove to me that you are the son of god ,he wanted proof from god who god is.Jesus said that it is a commandment that thou dhalt not test thy lord god,don't put god to the test.
      Also satn or the devil promissed to jesus he would give him all the fine cities in the world & wealth(proof that the devil is in charge at the moment,he is god of this world).Jesus said it is written that man cannot live by bread alone but must live by every word of god.The devil was trying to destroy gods plan to save mankind as he know's his time is short as he is a god of this planet.He tried to trick jesus & derail gods plan but he was too smartfor him.Just repeating man has a future with god or man does have no future with god take your pick.
      Last edited by George S.; 06-16-2011, 10:30 AM. Reason: edit
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"


      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        ako tseli Makedontsi mozhat tolka mozhnist da imat da se borat za Makedonskiot narod kako shto so borat za, ili, protiv religia, pushka ke bidime
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev


        • Daskalot
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 4345

          Originally posted by julie View Post
          ako tseli Makedontsi mozhat tolka mozhnist da imat da se borat za Makedonskiot narod kako shto so borat za, ili, protiv religia, pushka ke bidime
          I thought about the same thing when I read the other thread on the same topic. Sila imame!
          Macedonian Truth Organisation


          • makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 3242

            Originally posted by julie View Post
            ako tseli Makedontsi mozhat tolka mozhnist da imat da se borat za Makedonskiot narod kako shto so borat za, ili, protiv religia, pushka ke bidime
            Well said, I was thinking the very same thing - why is there not a similar effort to push Gruevski and the current govt. into the UN to demand our name? yet we can sit here and talk about religion for hours on end.
            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"


            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              makedonche i have emailed the mk vlada i have emailed personally to gruevski & ivanov & others do you think they would at least the curtesy to reply back.NO(probably emailed them a couple hundred times) .There's a saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it to drink.
              Last edited by George S.; 06-16-2011, 10:25 PM. Reason: edit
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV


              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                Searching for the god particle
                If you were to dig a hole 300 feet straight down from the center of the charming French village of Crozet, you'd pop into a setting that calls to mind the subterranean lair of one of those James Bond villains. A garishly lit tunnel ten feet in diameter curves away into the distance, interrupted every few miles by lofty chambers crammed with heavy steel structures, cables, pipes, wires, magnets, tubes, shafts, catwalks, and enigmatic gizmos.

                This technological netherworld is one very big scientific instrument, specifically, a particle accelerator-an atomic peashooter more powerful than any ever built. It's called the Large Hadron Collider, and its purpose is simple but ambitious: to crack the code of the physical world; to figure out what the universe is made of; in other words, to get to the very bottom of things.

                Starting sometime in the coming months, two beams of particles will race in opposite directions around the tunnel, which forms an underground ring 17 miles in circumference. The particles will be guided by more than a thousand cylindrical, supercooled magnets, linked like sausages. At four locations the beams will converge, sending the particles crashing into each other at nearly the speed of light. If all goes right, matter will be transformed by the violent collisions into wads of energy, which will in turn condense back into various intriguing types of particles, some of them never seen before. That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out.

                Those masses of equipment spaced along the tunnel will scrutinize the spray from the collisions. The largest, ATLAS, has a detector that's seven stories tall. The heaviest, CMS (for Compact Muon Solenoid), is heftier than the Eiffel Tower. "Bigger is better if you're searching for smaller" could be the motto at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, better known by its historic acronym CERN, the international laboratory that houses the Large Hadron Collider.

                It sounds scary, and it is. Building the LHC in a tunnel was a prudent move. The particle beam could drill a hole in just about anything, although the most likely victim would be the apparatus itself. One minor calamity has already happened: A magnet all but jumped out of its skin during a test in March 2007. Since then 24 magnets have been retrofitted to fix a design flaw. The people running the LHC aren't in a rush to talk about all the things that can go wrong, perhaps because the public has a way of worrying that mad scientists will accidentally create a black hole that devours the Earth.

                The more plausible fear is that the collider will fail to find the things that physicists insist must be lurking in the deep substrate of reality. Such a big machine needs to produce big science, big answers, something that can generate a headline as well as interesting particles. But even an endeavor of this scale isn't going to answer all the important questions of matter and energy. Not a chance. This is because a century of particle physics has given us a fundamental truth: Reality doesn't reveal its secrets easily.

                Put it this way: The universe is a tough nut to crack.

                Go back a little more than a century to the late 1800s, and look at the field of physics: a mature science, and rather complacent. There were those who believed there wasn't much more to do than smooth out some rough edges in nature's plan. There was a sensible order to things, a clockwork universe governed by Newtonian forces, with atoms as the foundation of matter. Atoms were indivisible by definition—the word comes from the Greek for "uncuttable."

                But then strange things started popping up in laboratories: x-rays, gamma rays, a mysterious phenomenon called radioactivity. Physicist J. J. Thomson discovered the electron. Atoms were not indivisible after all, but had constituents. Was it, as Thomson believed, a pudding, with electrons embedded like raisins? No. In 1911 physicist Ernest Rutherford announced that atoms are mostly empty space, their mass concentrated in a tiny nucleus orbited by electrons.

                Physics underwent one revolution after another. Einstein's special theory of relativity (1905) begat the general theory of relativity (1915), and suddenly even such reliable concepts as absolute space and absolute time had been discarded in favor of a mind-boggling space-time fabric in which two events can never be said to be simultaneous. Matter bends space; space directs how matter moves. Light is both a particle and a wave. Energy and mass are inter- changeable. Reality is probabilistic and not deterministic: Einstein didn't believe that God plays dice with the universe, but that became the scientific orthodoxy.
                By the early 1930s Ernest Lawrence had invented the first circular particle accelerator, or "cyclotron." It fit in his hand.

                Now the U.S. government has an accelerator that's hidden beneath several square miles of tallgrass prairie and a small herd of buffalo at its Fermilab facility west of Chicago. When you drive on the Junipero Serra freeway near Palo Alto, California, you pass directly over a two-mile linear accelerator. The LHC crosses the border between two countries. There are still physicists who do tabletop physics—who try to get big answers with modest means—but realistically you need huge, powerful, energetic devices to pry open the fabric of reality.

                We know things today that Einstein, Rutherford, Max Planck, Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, and the rest of the great physicists of a century ago couldn't have imagined. But we're nowhere near a final theory of physical reality. Molecules are made of atoms; atoms are made of particles called protons, neutrons, and electrons; protons and neutrons (which are the "hadrons" that give the collider its name) are made of odd things called quarks and gluons—but already we're into a fuzzy zone. Are quarks fundamental particles, or made of something smaller yet? Electrons are believed to be fundamental, but you wouldn't want to bet your life on it.

                Still, theoretical physicists crave simplicity. They'd like to have a model of reality that snaps together neatly. Their standard model, developed in the 1960s and 1970s, is widely viewed as unwieldy, like a contraption with too many loose ends and knobs and dangling bits. It includes 57 fundamental particles, with no rhyme or reason to many of the numbers describing how the particles interact. "We had a theory that started out really beautiful and elegant," says Joe Lykken, a theorist at Fermilab, "and then someone beat on it and made it really ugly."

                The standard model can't explain several towering mysteries about the universe that have their roots in the minuscule world of particles and forces. If there's one truly extraordinary concept to emerge from the past century of inquiry, it's that the cosmos we see was once smaller than an atom. This is why particle physicists talk about cosmology and cosmologists talk about particle physics: Our existence, our entire universe, emerged from things that happened at the smallest imaginable scale. The big bang theory tells us that the known universe once had no dimensions at all—no up or down, no left or right, no passage of time, and laws of physics beyond our vision.

                How does an infinitely dense universe become a vast and spacious one? And how is it filled with matter? In theory, as the early universe expanded, energy should have condensed into equal amounts of matter and antimatter, which would then have annihilated each other on contact, reverting to pure energy. On paper, the universe should be empty. But it's full of stars and planets and charming French villages and so on. The LHC experiments may help physicists understand our good fortune to be in a universe that grew with just enough more matter than antimatter.What about the riddle of dark matter? Scrutiny of the motion of distant galaxies indicates that they are subject to more gravity than their visible matter could possibly account for. There must be some exotic hidden matter in the mix. A theory called supersymmetry could account for this: It states that every fundamental particle had a much more massive counterpart in the early universe. The electron might have had a hefty partner that physicists refer to as the selectron. The muon might have had the smuon. The quark might have had ... the squark. Many of those supersymmetric partners would have been unstable, but one kind may have been just stable enough to survive since the dawn of time. And those particles might, at this very second, be streaming through your body without interacting with your meat and bones. They might be dark matter.

                By smashing pieces of matter together, creating energies and temperatures not seen since the universe's earliest moments, the LHC could reveal the particles and forces that wrote the rules for everything that followed. It could help answer one of the most basic questions for any sentient being in our universe: What is this place?

                There's one puzzle piece in particular that physicists hope to pick out of the debris from the LHC's high-energy collisions. Some call it the God particle.

                The first thing you learn when you ask scientists about the God particle is that it's bad form to call it that. The particle was named a few years back by Nobel Prize-winning physicist Leon Lederman, who has a knack for turning a phrase. Naturally the moniker took root among journalists, who know a good name for a particle when they hear one (it beats the heck out of the muon or the Z-boson).

                The preferred name for the God particle among physicists is the Higgs boson, or the Higgs particle, or simply the Higgs, in honor of the University of Edinburgh physicist Peter Higgs, who proposed its existence more than 40 years ago. Most physicists believe that there must be a Higgs field that pervades all space; the Higgs particle would be the carrier of the field and would interact with other particles, sort of the way a Jedi knight in Star Wars is the carrier of the "force." The Higgs is a crucial part of the standard model of particle physics—but no one's ever found it.

                Theoretical physicist John Ellis is one of the CERN scientists searching for the Higgs. He works amid totemic stacks of scientific papers that seem to defy the normal laws of gravity. He has long, gray hair and a long, white beard and, with all due respect, looks as if he belongs on a mountaintop in Tibet. Ellis explains that the Higgs field, in theory, is what gives fundamental particles mass. He offers an analogy: Different fundamental particles, he says, are like a crowd of people running through mud. Some particles, like quarks, have big boots that get covered with lots of mud; others, like electrons, have little shoes that barely gather any mud at all. Photons don't wear shoes—they just glide over the top of the mud without picking any up. And the Higgs field is the mud.The Higgs boson is presumed to be massive compared with most subatomic particles. It might have 100 to 200 times the mass of a proton. That's why you need a huge collider to produce a Higgs—the more energy in the collision, the more massive the particles in the debris. But a jumbo particle like the Higgs would also be, like all oversize particles, unstable. It's not the kind of particle that sticks around in a manner that we can detect—in a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second it will decay into other particles. What the LHC can do is create a tiny, compact wad of energy from which a Higgs might spark into existence long enough and vivaciously enough to be recognized. Building a contraption like the LHC to find the Higgs is a bit like embarking on a career as a stand-up comic with the hope that at some point in your career you'll happen to blurt out a joke that's not only side-splittingly funny but also a palindrome.

                You can take an elevator down into the LHC tunnel if you wear a hard hat and carry an emergency oxygen mask. When I visited, I found a major construction project still under way, with all the usual sounds of blowtorches and metal saws. Workers were installing magnets. They've since completed the process, having installed more than 1,600 magnets, most half the length of a basketball court and weighing more than 30 tons.

                Oddly enough, none of those magnets will accelerate particles. The acceleration will come from electrical waves in a separate apparatus that boosts particles around the ring. The job of the magnets is to nudge the beams of particles to bend ever so slightly around the ring. Lots of particles moving at nearly the speed of light have only one desire in life: to keep moving straight ahead. So the bend needs to be gradual—thus the 17-mile circumference of the ring.

                When the particles collide, they'll produce showers of debris as their energy gets transformed into mass. The physicists won't see the Higgs itself in that shower, but two of the four major experiments that the LHC will perform are capable of recording the detritus of the disintegrating Higgs—the telltale signal that a Higgs is decaying. And the assumption is that only the rare collision—one among many trillions—will produce a Higgs. Most collisions won't result in anything terribly interesting. The particle—or rather its debris—will show up in a detector's computers, found by sorting through massive amounts of data measured in petabytes—thousands of trillions of bits.

                A major issue for CERN is how to decide that they've found the Higgs. How much proof do you need? They've got two experiments competing to find the same particle. Do they announce the discovery by one experiment even if the other hasn't confirmed it yet?

                The relationship between the ATLAS and CMS experiments is like Coke versus Pepsi. They're working the same side of the street, but with different techniques. And they're highly competitive. The day I went to see ATLAS, the man in charge, Peter Jenni, found out that I'd already seen the CMS experiment. "Now you'll see something bigger," he said. His voice carried a slight my-detector-is-better-than-yours tone.

                CMS was built at the surface and will be lowered in several large chunks down through a shaft into a cavern along the tunnel. Tactlessly, I asked Dave Barney, one of the CMS scientists, what would happen if something went wrong and a part was dropped. You know, splat.

                "That won't happen," he said fiercely. "That's the worst thing imaginable." I realized that I was treading on delicate territory whenever I asked what kinds of things could go wrong with the LHC. No, the collider can't blow up the world, but this is high- energy physics. When those magnets are turned on, scientist Richard Jacobsson pointed out, a person swinging a hammer in the vicinity would do well to wear a helmet.
                When the LHC starts smashing particles, Europe will suddenly become the dominant location for particle physics, and the United States will find itself struggling to figure out how to stay relevant. Perhaps that's a petty concern given the magnitude of what the LHC might turn up, but it's something people talk about. Since the Manhattan Project there's been a general notion that the U.S. dominates the world of physics. Until now, the energy frontier has been at Fermilab, home of the Tevatron. That collider has found some important particles, but it might not have quite enough juice to nail the Higgs.

                Some U.S. money has gone into the LHC, which will cost billions of dollars: five, maybe ten—the exact number is elusive (the science will be precise, but the accounting apparently follows the Uncertainty Principle). But most of the engineering is being done by European firms. Jürgen Schukraft, who supervises an LHC experiment named ALICE (which will re-create conditions the same as those just after the big bang), said, "The brain drain that used to go from Europe to the States definitely has reversed."

                The cynic might say that there's no practical use for any of this, that there might be other uses for all the money and brainpower going into these particle guns. But we live in a civilization shaped by physics. We know that the forces within an atom are so powerful that, unleashed and directed against humanity, they can obliterate cities in an instant. The laptop computer on which I'm writing uses microprocessors that would not exist had we not discovered quantum physics and the quirky behavior of electrons. This story will be posted on the World Wide Web—invented, in case you hadn't heard, at CERN, by computer scientist Tim Berners-Lee. Maybe you're reading it while listening to your iPod, which wouldn't exist but for something called "giant magnetoresistance." Two physicists discovered it independently in the late 1980s, with not much thought of how it might eventually be used. It became crucial to making tiny consumer electronics that used magnetized hard disks. The physicists won a Nobel Prize in 2007, and you got a nifty sound system that's smaller than a Hershey bar.

                When I asked Peter Jenni why the LHC is important, he said, "Humankind differs from a collection of ants. We have intellectual curiosity; we need to understand the mechanisms of life and the universe."

                And anyone who thinks these big machines are soulless contraptions should listen to Richard Jacobsson. The LHC is replacing a particle detector he worked with for a decade. He came to know every inch of that instrument. He understood its moods and idiosyncrasies. The day the engineers came to rip it out, Jacobsson was overcome with emotion. "I had tears in my eyes," he said. "When they cut the cables, I thought blood would flow out." Now entire lives are wrapped up in the new machine, which physicists have been dreaming about since the 1980s.

                Many people at CERN are hoping they'll get more than just answers: They'd like to uncover some new mysteries. John Ellis confided that he wouldn't even mind if the LHC failed to find a Higgs. "Many of us theorists would find that failure much more interesting than if we just find another boring old particle that some theorists predicted 45 years ago."

                New puzzles seem a sure bet. After all, the universe doesn't seem to be constructed for our investigative convenience. We're big, sloppy meat-creatures who haven't even taken a good census of the species of bacteria that live in our bodies. One day I asked George Smoot, a Nobel laureate physicist, if he thinks our most basic questions will ever be answered.

                "It depends on how I'm feeling on any particular day," he said. "But every day I go to work I'm making a bet that the universe is simple, symmetric, and aesthetically pleasing—a universe that we humans, with our limited perspective, will someday understand."

                Joel Achenbach is a Washington Post staff writer. He has written columns and features for National Geographic since 1998. Peter Ginter is a German photographer known for his work in all fields of science.

                PAGE [ 2 ] OF 6
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV


                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  SRiddle of 'God particle' to be solved by 2012
                  Wednesday, 18 May 2011
                  by Richard Ingham

                  Agence France-Presse
                  LONDON: By the end of 2012, physicists say they could determine whether a theorised particle called the Higgs boson, which has unleashed a gruelling decades-long hunt, exists or not.

                  "I'm pretty confident that towards the end of 2012 we will have an answer to the Shakespeare question for the Higgs boson - to be, or not to be?" Rolf-Dieter Heuer, director general of the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN), told a press conference at Britain's Royal Society.

                  CERN has ordered the world's biggest particle collider to step up the quest to explain mass, one of the greatest puzzles in physics.

                  Find it, or rule it out

                  The key to this is believed to be the Higgs, a notional sub-atomic particle named after British physicist Peter Higgs who mooted its existence in 1964.

                  If it is found, one of the last pieces would be set in place in the famous Standard Model, which seeks to bring all the particles and forces in the Universe under a single, unified theory.

                  "By the end of 2012 we will either discover the Standard Model Higgs Boson, if it exists, or we will rule it out," said Fabiola Gianotti, who is the spokesman for CERN's biggest particle-collider lab, called Atlas.

                  Resolving the mysteries of the Universe

                  CERN's Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is located in a 27-km ring-shaped tunnel 100 m below ground, straddling the French-Swiss border. It is designed to accelerate protons to nearly the speed of light and then smash them together in house-sized labs where detectors record the seething sub-atomic debris.

                  The smashups briefly stoke temperatures 100,000 times hotter than the Sun, fleetingly replicating conditions which prevailed split-seconds after the 'Big Bang'' that created the Universe 13.7 billion years ago.

                  In this primordial soup, novel particles may lurk that will resolve mysteries clouding our understanding of fundamental matter, scientists say.

                  Battling shutdowns

                  Enigmas include the Higgs - dubbed 'the God particle' for being mysterious yet ubiquitous - as well as suspected 'supersymmetrical' particles that could explain dark matter, which comprises around 23% of the Universe.

                  The first proton collisions at the LHC occurred on September 10, 2008. The smasher then had to endure a 14-month shutdown to fix technical problems.

                  The LHC recently notched up the biggest-ever energy release from particle collisions, although this is still only half of its design capacity. It had been due to shut down in early 2012 for work enabling it to crank up to full power.

                  However, a decision was made several weeks ago to delay closure for a year to help the search for the Higgs, said Gianotti.

                  12Continued on next page

                  Readers' comments

                  Add new comment
                  Gravity already deciphered
                  Can Higgs boson explain momentum, inertia and moment of inertia? Can it explain gyroscopic effects? Can it explain dark matter? No. The folks at LHC have now set themselves a deadline. But can there be a deadline in such matters? Only, if you already have some knowledge of something? May be, they know that the fundamental functioning of gravity has already been understood? So, they are now working on an exit plan after the USPTO screened my application for two months under secrecy review. Quite probable that LHC got a whiff of what was brewing at the USPTO. To put the matters straight, the actual discovery of gravity’s exact mechanism along with that of dark matter has already taken place, way back in autumn 2010. I know from my theoretical understanding that it is impossible to find any traces of Higgs boson as a quantum particle in the Hadron collider, neither can it show the existence of dark matter. Some details of my discovery of how gravitation exactly works are on ; details of how it is produced in the framework of quantum mechanics has been disclosed to the US Patent Office and is to be published by them as a filed patent application. I consciously did not report to any peer-reviewed journal, fearing discrimination, because of my non-institutional status as a researcher. I had filed the US patent application (US 13/045,558) on March 11, 2011, after filing a mandatory Indian patent application on January 11, 2011.

                  Submitted by Visitor on 18 May 2011 - 12:03pm.
                  Abundance of dark matter
                  The estimates of the amount of dark matter in our universe vary widely, but saying it's 23% is going out on a bit of a limb. In fact, many cosmologists now think that the matter of which we and the rest of our observable universe comprise as little as 6% of its mass, with the large balance being dark matter and dark energy.

                  The universe's visible matter may well turn out to only some local electronic turbulence that has developed around big blobs of otherwise inactive and invisible dark matter.

                  Submitted by Visitor on 19 May 2011 - 1:01am.
                  Last edited by George S.; 06-16-2011, 10:43 PM. Reason: ed
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV


                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    ON the theory of evolution it says that animals are evolving.How come there is no visible evolvement today & how come for "millions of years you have got crocodiles are the same,the shark is the same.To say that man has evolved from the monkey makes a mockery of the whole thing.Isn't man more intelligent than a monkey.Mankind is a special species.Each animal has it's own species.Each animal was made from it's own kind.
                    Also biodiversity means that whilst some things appear similar they are not in way related.
                    If evolution is true how come man is not evolving into something else.A lot of these so called skull discoveries have been proven to be just hoaxes.Out of all the "animals" on the earth man is the most intelligent,man can reason & plan,design & other qualities compassion etc.Where as the animals are guided by instinct & brute force.
                    If we look at the complexities of man & animals man is far more complex.It is said that man was made in the image of god.Man can have communion with his maker also mans destiny or potential is to become god in gods kingdom.To partake & be god in the next life.The animals do not have that potential.They are there to serve mankind.That's another reason why human life is so precious that god giveth & god taketh away.
                    The bible makes it clear that in man god is reproducing themselves,man is on a higher plane than the other animals.When got made animals he made them complete not to evolve into something else.God has a definite plan for whatever he does.That is evidence in his creation handiwork.Jesus said forgive them father for they do not understand what they do.Jesus said it's so simple a little child can understand it,Flesh & blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god only that that is of the spirit can enter the knigdom of god.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV


                    • makedonche
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 3242

                      Originally posted by George S. View Post
                      makedonche i have emailed the mk vlada i have emailed personally to gruevski & ivanov & others do you think they would at least the curtesy to reply back.NO(probably emailed them a couple hundred times) .There's a saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it to drink.
                      George S
                      Is that the same for Mule's as well as horses?
                      On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"


                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        The MUle's packed to the rafters it won't listen & is heading towards destruction.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV


                        • Bill77
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 4545

                          I am now convinced about evolution. So this is how it all began.

                          YouTube - ‪History Of The World Part 1, Intro‬‏

                          Well.....atleast it could be possible how the Greek race began. Some things never change. So much for evolution theories then. lol
                          Last edited by Bill77; 06-20-2011, 06:46 PM.


                          • makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 3242

                            Originally posted by George S. View Post
                            The MUle's packed to the rafters it won't listen & is heading towards destruction.
                            George S
                            HaHaHA....I think I know which Mule your'e talking about here!
                            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"


                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              Disproving Gods with History and Science (Richard Carrier)

                              In this lecture, Dr. Richard Carrier quickly surveys the history of major religions, and lays out a collection of logical arguments for why science and histo...

                              In this lecture, Dr. Richard Carrier quickly surveys the history of major religions, and lays out a collection of logical arguments for why science and history support naturalism, and disprove the god hypothesis. See below for additional resources.