Kolokotronis the Albanian

[Voltron]

And how much of Macedonian culture and tradition has been erased from the part of Macedonia that was annexed by Greece since 1913?

I dont know Daskalot, Id be lying if I told you I did. Besides, why do we even have to go there again ?

[Voltron]

Who mentioned Bulgaria in this thread? Don't thank me, I wasn't welcoming you. Too many times you have come to this forum trying to play some 'good' character while itching to disrespect our people. After you previous BS here I don't believe a word you say, so spare me your reasoning and earn your respect.

SOM, the reason Bulgaria was mentioned is also for the simple fact we all know how they feel about Ottoman occupation. Its common knowledge.

[Daskalot]

I dont know Daskalot, Id be lying if I told you I did. Besides, why do we even have to go there again ?

We are on a Macedonian forum so it is quite natural to discuss matters from a Macedonian perspective, don't you agree?

[Epirot]

Im justifying the eradification of foreign elements in our land. It is not our historical heritage, it is someone elses.

This does mean that you justify in the same manner the ethnic cleaning of Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace. According to your nationalist ideology, they are supposed to be "foreign elements" in the land which belonged to you since the neolithic period, right!?

I will be the first to admit that Christianity damaged many relics from antiquity however Christianity has been an accepted religion in Europe. Not brought in by force in the same manner Islam was.

You know absolutely nothing about Christianity. Here is an incomplete list of "peaceful spreading" of Christianity across Europe:

Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans

*
As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
*
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
*
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
*
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
*
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
*
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
*
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
*
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
*
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]

Mission

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Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
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Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
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Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
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15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
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16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

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First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
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Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
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9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
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Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
*
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents—save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
*
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
*
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
*
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
*
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
*
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
*
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
*
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

For the last time, it was Arvanites that have contributed and they hardly recognize themselves along the same ranks with TurkAlbanians.

Since when, political division mean ethnic division? Why do you ignore the very fact that Muslim Albanians sided with their Orthodox brethren to fought Ottomans?

[Epirot]

Is it really so hard to say 'kosovo'? Why must you keep saying kosova, I'm pretty sure we are writting in english not shiptar...

Is it really hard to not mess yourself in the comments of others? I am following just the Albanian pronunciation of my country. So, I am pretty interested what does this bother you? You can't impose to me how to pronounce the names of countries.

P.S: SoM, I gave my response in the post #68!

[Voltron]

We are on a Macedonian forum so it is quite natural to discuss matters from a Macedonian perspective, don't you agree?

Agreed.

This does mean that you justify in the same manner the ethnic cleaning of Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace. According to your nationalist ideology, they are supposed to be "foreign elements" in the land which belonged to you since the neolithic period, right!?

Negative, I do not condone in anyway elimination of human beings. That is completely unrelated and trying to link the two is silly.

You know absolutely nothing about Christianity. Here is an incomplete list of "peaceful spreading" of Christianity across Europe:

I know, I know, the evil Christians running amok and blowing themselves up to smitherines. Listen Epirot, there obviously low points in Christianity in its history but at the end of the day its fundamental ideology is based on turning of the cheek, not domination with the sword. Its not even close trying to compare the two.

Since when, political division mean ethnic division? Why do you ignore the very fact that Muslim Albanians sided with their Orthodox brethren to fought Ottomans?

There was never a unified Albanian ethnos back then. If the Turk-Albanians sided once with Arvanties then they squared off with each other a thousand times over. Who are you trying to kid ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The content of video is pretty manipulated because it's intentionally biased!

Epirot, you use words that you don't even understand. There is no manipulation on the video because it is recorded live. And the only bias is the fact that it shows Albanians damaging Christian places and nobody else.

A certain number of them were Albanian from the beginning.............This is sufficient to disprove the allegedly Serbian being of orthodox monasteries in Kosova.

For example, it is widely known that Monastery of Deçan was previously Catholic..........The Orthodox monastery of Deçan was granted to Scanderbeg. In his time, most of Albanians were of Orthodox faith and Catholics were barely seen in Kosova.

You're all over the place. Is it only a certain number or is it all of them? Was Decani originally Catholic or was it Orthodox? You're not making any sense. What proof do you have regarding the Decani monastery being established by Albanians, aside from the assertions of some Albanian professor?

There was not any strategy of Albanians to ruin them.

Strategy, random, what difference does it make? Dozens of medieval Orthodox churches and monasteries were destroyed. Again, stop defending these idiotic actions by your kinsmen and accept that what they did was wrong.

Even some members of UNESCO took an initiative to declare Orthodox heritage of Kosova, not as Serbian, but as "Kosovo's heritage"

So? Does that mean it is Albanian?

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, the reason Bulgaria was mentioned is also for the simple fact we all know how they feel about Ottoman occupation. Its common knowledge.

And what, the Macedonians didn't despise Ottoman occupation? Or are you being anachronistic by drawing a connection to Macedonia's current relations with Turkey? Perhaps you need to go a little more contemporary and see how cosy Greeks and Turks were against Macedonians during the Ottoman period.

[Voltron]

And what, the Macedonians didn't despise Ottoman occupation? Or are you being anachronistic by drawing a connection to Macedonia's currently relations with Turkey?.

I would say the latter reason and the fact that it seems to me that it is something that is accepted as part of Macedonia's history without any sense of animosity.

Perhaps you need to go a little more contemporary and see how cosy Greeks and Turks were against Macedonians during the Ottoman period

Kind of like Turkey and Iran are against the Kurds today isnt it ? I noticed on that thread you were a little more understanding in Turkey's plight.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would say the latter reason and the fact that it seems to me that it is something that is accepted as part of Macedonia's history without any sense of animosity.

We accept it as a part of Macedonia's history because it is a part of Macedonia's history, just like it is a part of Greece's history, irrespective of how many Ottoman relics you've destroyed. There is no animosity now because it has been almost 100 years since Ottoman rule finished in Macedonia and we don't have any current political issues with them. I suppose, in your defence, the situation may have been different if we shared borders with Turkey, but that isn't certain either.

Kind of like Turkey and Iran are against the Kurds today isnt it ? I noticed on that thread you were a little more understanding in Turkey's plight.

Not really. They are all Muslims. While your so-called 'Christian' priests and peasants were collaborating with Muslims against fellow Christians. Anyway, I respect the right of Turkey to exist as a state and for the Kurds to realise their own state. Same thing with Israel and the Palestinians. The main point I was trying to make on the other thread was that if a Kurdistan was possible then it probably has more of a chance in Iraq than Turkey. I could be wrong. Aside from that, I don't feel particularly strong about the issue because I don't know enough about it and have enough to concern myself with when it comes to Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

[Voltron]

We accept it as a part of Macedonia's history because it is a part of Macedonia's history, just like it is a part of Greece's history, irrespective of how many Ottoman relics you've destroyed. There is no animosity now because it has been almost 100 years since Ottoman rule finished in Macedonia and we don't have any current political issues with them. I suppose, in your defence, the situation may have been different if we shared borders with Turkey, but that isn't certain either..

Its not part of Macedonia's history either, unless you consider those monuments as your own. Its a reminder of a foreign occupier in our lands. There is no basis to have them exist today. Do you keep garbage in your house to remind you what you ate yesterday ? And if someone on this forum tries to bring up Greek monuments in other areas in this world it is a result of influence. Not by force as it is in Turkey's case.

Anyway, i guess we are diving into an issue of semantics now. So Il leave it at that.

Aside from that, I don't feel particularly strong about the issue because I don't know enough about it and have enough to concern myself with when it comes to Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

This I can accept.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Its not part of Macedonia's history either, unless you consider those monuments as your own. Its a reminder of a foreign occupier in our lands.

Voltron, you can't just disregard centuries of interaction with the Turks during the Ottoman period. It is a part of your history.

There is no basis to have them exist today. Do you keep garbage in your house to remind you what you ate yesterday ?

Does tzatziki, baklava, coffee, etc also remind you of foreign occupation? Or is the edible sort of 'garbage' acceptable?

And if someone on this forum tries to bring up Greek monuments in other areas in this world it is a result of influence. Not by force as it is in Turkey's case.

Not where it concerns Macedonia in the last 100 years.

[Epirot]

Epirot, you use words that you don't even understand. There is no manipulation on the video because it is recorded live. And the only bias is the fact that it shows Albanians damaging Christian places and nobody else.

SoM, the Serbian propaganda by using such recordings wants to create an erroneous picture of events in Kosova. They are portraying Albanians as being responsible for everything bad occurred during the last war there. It's more than obvious that the Serbs are just trying to wash their hands with water and saying: 'We are innocent'. It does resemble with the character of Pontius Pilate, does not it? They put forward some pieces of records when any Albanian individual desecrated any orthodox monastery but they don't show not a single record about their tanks burning villages in Bosnia and Kosova, massacring the innocent people, raping women and children, etc. Do you still consider Serbs as being unbiased?

Originally posted by SoM

Strategy, random, what difference does it make? Dozens of medieval Orthodox churches and monasteries were destroyed. Again, stop defending these idiotic actions by your kinsmen and accept that what they did was wrong.

You're purposefully misinterpreting my comments. Please, find just a piece of my comment where I've advocated the desecration of orthodox monasteries? Please, find just of a piece of my comment where I've defended their violence. I strongly condemn their vandalism. All what I am trying to emphasize is that Albanians should not be blamed for the acts of a few frustrated individuals. Is that hard to understand? All what I am trying to say is that they did their acts because they thought they were taking vengeance for their sufferings. To them, Orthodox monasteries were identified as tools of Serbian policy, which is not far from the truth. The fact that most of Orthodox monasteries were spared speaks volume. Most of Albanian people were not hostile towards them.

Originally posted by SoM

You're all over the place. Is it only a certain number or is it all of them? Was Decani originally Catholic or was it Orthodox? You're not making any sense. What proof do you have regarding the Decani monastery being established by Albanians, aside from the assertions of some Albanian professor?

Let clarify things once again: The monastery of Deçan was previously Catholic. It has been built by the Catholic Albanians of Tivar. A number of relations with the Archbishop of Tivar indicate that it did belong to the Catholic rite. Then, with the expansion of Serbian kingdom in the period of Stephen Uroš, this monastery was re-build and was supplemented with other parts. It is thought that during this time, its western entrance was blocked by a wall, a symbolic which marked the distinction from the Western Church. It should be noted that Serbian rulers were compelled to guard with soldiers the masons who were building new objects around monastery because Albanians of adjacent regions rebelled against Slavic lords.

Originally posted by SoM

What proof do you have regarding the Decani monastery being established by Albanians, aside from the assertions of some Albanian professor?

In the interior of monastery there are a couple of marvelous frescoes. In some of them are painted either monks or believers wearing Albanian white costumes. This does mean that monastery of Deçan was frequented by Christian Albanians. In the Deçan municipality itself, Albanians constituted always the majority of population.

Originally posted by SoM

So? Does that mean it is Albanian?

It depends who were the majority in Kosova at that time.

[Epirot]

There was never a unified Albanian ethnos back then. If the Turk-Albanians sided once with Arvanties then they squared off with each other a thousand times over. Who are you trying to kid ?

now you're just trying to insult our intelligence by saying that there was no Albanian ethnos at that time. I strongly recommend to you to read XIX century accounts dealing with the Albanians in Balkans. All of them saw Albanians as being a single unit, aware for their common language, origin and traditions. I do not want to waste my time by giving you tons of evidences about non-existence of Greek ethnos and nation at that time.

[Voltron]

Voltron, you can't just disregard centuries of interaction with the Turks during the Ottoman period. It is a part of your history.

Interaction is one thing, having monuments such as mosques that are reminiscent of occupation is another.I dont necessarily mind the Ottoman houses or architecture that we still have in Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace. Mosques is basically my point of contention.

Does tzatziki, baklava, coffee, etc also remind you of foreign occupation? Or is the edible sort of 'garbage' acceptable?

Turks were known to make incisions on their horses neck to sip blood off while they were riding. Not exactly the type to make a nice filet mignon if you know what I mean. Their culinery arts were heavely influenced by and not limited to Greeks and Persians. The sweets that are "Turkish" is basically honey and nuts. The same ingredients that were well known to ppl of balkan antiquity. I hardly see how they find the time to experiment cuisine in their yurts or while they were constantly on the move. Il give them credit for yoghurt but thats about it.