Busting the "Vergina Tomb" myth

[Stojacanec]

My Greek is as good as your Macedonian, Arch.....don't you mean arhidi ??

[Daskalot]

Well I didn't hear about anyone being killed, but one thing is for certain. There was a body of work by an Ancient Macedonian writer, who wrote in Macedonian, not Greek. His work would have been invaluable insight about the true nature of Macedonian culture and language. However, this work was somehow mysteriously "lost".

Which Ancient Macedonian writer are you referring to above? Can you give us a name?

[George S.]

It's amazing how much these forum sneakers will get up to greeks masquerading as macedonians You notice from their posts as to who they are by what they say. A greek would only say makedonats Also i noticed he uses the greek version of vergina & not the macedonian version of kutlesh.

[Daskalot]

Oh do we have a pretender amongst us, I who thought that he was for real so we could have an interesting debate.

[George S.]

which part of bitola are you from?i was born in bitola.

[Daskalot]

Hi All. I have been researching publications on the findings not only from Vergina, but all other ancient townships, villages and burials not only Ancient Macedonia, but also neighbouring regions, north-south, east & west.

There is a undeniable trend by Greek archaeologists to mis-represent archaeological findings, either (a) out of poor methdology or (b) blatant "nationalist archaelogy", as Borza put in in Before Alexander. And I want to highlight that some Greek archaeologists are great and very neutral, however these are the guys who focus on deep prehistory -Neolithic & Bronze Age Macedonia; these guys don't crap on about Hellas or "Greekness", but purely generate hypotheses about susistence, societal organization, trade, etc based on the archaeological finds. And that's great ! Unfortunately their colleagues focussing on Classical Period cannot divorce themselves from overriding (modern) political issues.

Greeks studying the cemetery at Vergina, eg, speak of the Greek epigraphy, Doric columns, paintings of hunting done by Greek painters, etc. And this is true. What they do not mention, however, is that Vergina existed since 900 BC ! ! The burial type, pottery, weapons, jewellery etc found in vergina during this period, until c. 600 BC, show barely any Greek character, whether Corinthian, Athenian, Euboian, or what have you {as per Snodgrass, Lemnos, Coldstream Whitley, Morris. Even that blatantly Hellenophilic dinosaur, Hammond, demonstrates this in his works}.

The findings at Vergina are similar throughout Macedonia, showing remarkable continuity since the Nelithic ! Sure, there has always been a small amount of Greek type finds, eg Mycenaen swords, Mycenean pottery, Geometric pottery, etc. However, these represent a very small overall proportion, and do not signify anything other than trade, exchange, cultural contact, etc.

It is only in the 6th century that a large influx of of "greek" imports which appear. However, these are not limited to "Argead Macedonia". If anything, this was a more backward part of the region, and the earliest Greek finds are in the Chalkidike, south-western Thrace. With this came Greek inscriptions for trade, beuracracy and hence, the learning/ adaptation of Greek, or a linguistic accomodation to a more "Greek" type of speech. What Greeks also do not know, or neglect, is that Greek writing is foudn earlier in Thracian and Paeonian areas than that Pella Curse tablet they keep going on about., But they never claim that the Paeonians were Greek, do they ?

Even during this period of Greek influence, traditional Macedonian culture continued - eg the warrior burials, use of "Illyrian" -type Helmets, etc. And the finds at Vergina at this period share most affinities with Sindos, Gevgelia, Pelestra, etc - all site near the Strymon, Vardar, etc; and not the traditional Greek mainland.

This clear archaeological evidence shows the process of "Hellenization" of a region which had never really been part of a Greek core. This mirrors the evidence found in ancient sources: contrary to what modern Greeks claim, the evidence is clear ! Greeks did not accept Macedonians as fellow Greeks, and likely, the Macedonians disliked the Greeks. Macedonians only began to be consistently viewed as Greeks during the Roma period, but, by then, Hellenism in Macedonia was on the way, and the way of "Rome" took over. That is why there are now Vlachs throughout Macedonia and Thessaly.

Welcome to our forum, and thank you for your interesting insights into this topic Arch.

[julie]

Sorry, what period are you talking about. 1985 AD or 400 BC ?

WTF?
go back to your maggotted forum, tell me one more time how the Macedonian language evolved from the Greek language you albanian piece of kaka

[Soldier of Macedon]

Nobody from Bitola says "makedonats", but despite you insulting our intelligence, I will entertain this a little further and allow you to prove your assertion. There are persons from Macedonia that aren't ethnic Macedonian but who normally speak the Macedonian language, let's first determine if you are even from where you say. Write a full sentence in the Bitolsko dialect here.

[Archaeologicum]

2. Macedonian langauge did become influenced by Greek, simply because Greek was used for writing.

Cyrillic alphabet is and was used by by Makedontsi.
I dont know one word of Greek and in my 45 years of speaking Macedonian, not one Greek has understood me

I cant stand liars. Come clean about what you are, because it sure is not Macedonian

Sorry, what period are you talking about. 1985 AD or 400 BC ?

[Archaeologicum]

Well, I have no need to 'impersonate' identities. I know what a mana is in the literal meaning, but I;d just not heard of the expression (I grew up in Australia). But I was born in Bitola to an all -Macedonian family, and identify as such. But do what you wish, I thought this was an actual discussion forum about political and historic issues, not a personal inquisition.

[George S.]

arch if you don't know what mana means you aren't macedonian.At least do the honorable thing & of who you are.You can't bs to us we will know from the way you answer us.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Archaelogicum,

You are not Macedonian, yet you have entered this forum like some pretender. I will give you one opportunity to admit your true ethnic background and if you lie again you will be banned.

[julie]

1. prav makedonats od Bitola. What is a "Mana"?
you just showed you are not, in first sentence, blatantly obvious to pravi Makedontsi
second sentence, from Bitola especially , would know what is meant by "mana"


2. Macedonian langauge did become influenced by Greek, simply because Greek was used for writing.

Cyrillic alphabet is and was used by by Makedontsi.
I dont know one word of Greek and in my 45 years of speaking Macedonian, not one Greek has understood me

I cant stand liars. Come clean about what you are, because it sure is not Macedonian

[Archaeologicum]

"Vergina" is a settler colonial name and the original place name for the location of the (Royal) Macedonian burial tombs is Kutlesh!

Are you a Macedonian or a Macedonian with a "MANA", one of the many mani floating around Macedonian forums?


I doubt very much that they would be completely neutral, unbiased and not affected by their political environment they exist in! It may be that you can not see it, do not want to see it or that you may be peddling some other agendas.


I don't like your angle at all and it reeks of some anti-Macedonian trol!


Antimakedonsko podmetnuvanje!


Likely? Haha...and you claim that you have read extensively on the subject! If you were a Macedonian, you would not write such nonsense.


Really?


What do you mean "on the way" (do you mean "on the way out"?)?


Pure !

Come on, now settle down. Jas sum prav makedonats od Bitola. What is a "Mana"?

We have to be fair, we can't accuse all Greeks of being biased and chauvanists. I work with quite a few who admit that Alexander was a Macedonian, not a Greek. And, like I said, some Greek archaeologists are quite neutral, they leave aside issues of ethnicity. Yes, this is a rather small minority. Ofcourse, no none is completely neutral. This is an impossibility, for no human is devoid of sentiment.

Allowing for certain accomodation and compromise is not being anti-Macedonian, for then, we risk being as blind sighted as Greeks themselves ! One cannot divorce on country from another, all peoples in the Balkans have influenced each other.

What I was saying is: Macedonia had, and always had its own character. However, from the 6th century, Greek influences became apparent in Macedonia. This does not mean that Macedonians became Greeks. This was a simply due to the economic power of the Greek city -states. And I agree, like I said above, the literary sources show that Greeks thought Macedonians as non-Greek barbarians. Not even a Greek can deny this (but they try to justify it by some BS about it meaning that they were "culturally inferior to Athenians".) "Barbarian" , as they were called, meant one who did not speak Greek. It's that simple. But what I added on was that Macedonian langauge did become influenced by Greek, simply because Greek was used for writing.

The last sentence was a typo. What I mean to say that in the Roman era, Macedonia showed more similarity with Greece, hwoever, by then Greek was one the way out, and Latin became the new lingua franca. That is why there are certain groups of Vlachs scattered throughout Macedonia and Thessaly, probably related to settlement of Roman auxilieries, etc

[indigen]

Hi All. I have been researching publications on the findings not only from Vergina, but all other ancient townships, villages and burials not only Ancient Macedonia, but also neighbouring regions, north-south, east & west.

"Vergina" is a settler colonial name and the original place name for the location of the (Royal) Macedonian burial tombs is Kutlesh!

Are you a Macedonian or a Macedonian with a "MANA", one of the many mani floating around Macedonian forums?

There is a undeniable trend by Greek archaeologists to mis-represent archaeological findings, either (a) out of poor methdology or (b) blatant "nationalist archaelogy", as Borza put in in Before Alexander. And I want to highlight that some Greek archaeologists are great and very neutral, however these are the guys who focus on deep prehistory -Neolithic & Bronze Age Macedonia; these guys don't crap on about Hellas or "Greekness", but purely generate hypotheses about susistence, societal organization, trade, etc based on the archaeological finds. And that's great ! Unfortunately their colleagues focussing on Classical Period cannot divorce themselves from overriding (modern) political issues.

I doubt very much that they would be completely neutral, unbiased and not affected by their political environment they exist in! It may be that you can not see it, do not want to see it or that you may be peddling some other agendas.

If anything, this was a more backward part of the region, and the earliest Greek finds are in the Chalkidike, south-western Thrace. With this came Greek inscriptions for trade, beuracracy and hence, the learning/ adaptation of Greek, or a linguistic accomodation to a more "Greek" type of speech.

I don't like your angle at all and it reeks of some anti-Macedonian trol!

This clear archaeological evidence shows the process of "Hellenization" of a region which had never really been part of a Greek core.

Antimakedonsko podmetnuvanje!

and likely, the Macedonians disliked the Greeks.

Likely? Haha...and you claim that you have read extensively on the subject! If you were a Macedonian, you would not write such nonsense.

Macedonians only began to be consistently viewed as Greeks during the Roma period

Really?

but, by then, Hellenism in Macedonia was on the way, and the way of "Rome" took over.

What do you mean "on the way" (do you mean "on the way out"?)?

That is why there are now Vlachs throughout Macedonia and Thessaly.

Pure !