Why were the Macedonians styled as "Greeks" in the 19th Century?

[indigen]

Yes I understand but this article, as short as it is, still has left out other factors as to why there was this thought process in the 19th century that the ancient Macedonians were in fact ancient Hellenes. And it's the most important reason which was the Megali Idea. Failure to mention this fact means that historyofmacedonia.org has to include more than what the article states because the 3 facts I mentioned above did have a role in shifting scholars and travellers thoughts on the ancients (George Abbot for example). It also leaves out the characters that made this Megali Idea possible through propaganda. One of them being Droysen. Yet what about the Vlach prime minister Ioannis Kolletis and Constantinos Paparrigopoulos? These two, as well as a slew of others, are the prime suspects for what happened. Here's more info on it that I recommend more people read because this article in historyofmacedonia.org is good but it falls short on the whole story.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1316

http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedonian-history/propaganda-politicized-use-of-hellenism-t13138.html

http://www.maknews.com/forum/archive/kolettis-the-vlach-megali-idea-speech-t13125.html

http://www.maknews.com/forum/archive...ce-t12173.html

TM, I think the article does an excellent job describing what it does and perhaps the heading is/can be a bit misleading. I think the source is Joe Grez and it may be modified slightly due to paraphrasing but the analysis is sound, IMO.

TM: So the one man that created your national history (Paparrigopulos) thought that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation of their own. Well that is until he ran into Droysen who spoon fed him German "hellenism" and pretty much wrote your history from a German point of view And look who wrote the piece. One of your own , Ioannis Koubourlis

Here are some more links, since you forced me to read up on history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gustav_Droysen

http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Konstantinos_Paparrigopoulos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis

Modern Greece: Made In Germany pt.2

http://www.maknews.com/forum/general-discussions/modern-greece-made-in-germany-pt-2-t17083.html

TM: Last we left off reading about the affect that the Germans had on German Made Greece. From Kingship to even Flagship todays Neo-Hellene is the ultimate creation of what their German masters would have them be. Not to take away from the superstar of the nineteenth century Lord Byron, who catapulted the cause for their war for independence, but the Germans had him beat by a full century. They even went so far as to put Hellas into production before Greece existed as such(1). According to scholar Stathis Gourgouris "The force of this cultural pre-construction in Greece cannot be underestimated, considering especially that the sociopolitical conditions prevailing at the end of the War of Independence point to an irreducible social and cultural discontinuity, to a zero point in the operation of those significations that were conceivably to propel and uphold the images of a new national identity.....Thus, the recourse of the new image of Hellas(both as cultural construct and as social system) began immediately upon the brief rule of Governor Kapodistrias and became efficiently implemented with the takeover of the Bavarian monarchy and its explicit desire for centralization and Hellenization. In fact, the cultural image of a modern Greece was put into production with much greater urgency than was a political-economic infrastructure, despite the obvious importance of the latter in a newly constituted State."(2)

TM: But we are missing the most important aspect of German manufacturing in modern Greece....the German made term 'Hellenism'. Hellenism, which was a term created by the German Johan Gustav Droysen, was the vehicle for expansionism spinning the wheels of the Megal Idea. The nationalist pseudo historian of the time was Constantinos Paparrigopoulos who was trying to put together the myth of an unbroken cultural descendency from ancient Hellas to German Made modern Greece. Unfortunately he faced much criticism from a German , believe it or not, named Jakob Phillip Fallmerayer. Fallmerayer charged that the modern Greeks were not the descendents of the dead ancient race of Hellenes. In his opinion, and rightfully so, the modern inhabitants of Greece were a conglomeration of Slavs and Albanians and whatever else settled in the Balkans. Paparrigopoulos had to not only prove the megali idea valid, but he also had to prove Fallmerayer wrong. He could not connect the pieces however.
In his works previous the 1850's ancient Macedonia was a distinct nation not related to the ancient Hellene city-states-'the Macedonian nation accomplished, in the general history [of civilization], a different mission from that of the Hellenic nation'(6).
Paparrigopoulos was at a cross roads. He could not figure out how to by-pass the time of Philip of Macedon and Alexander the Great as well as the Roman empire and the East Roman empire (Byzantine empire) to modern times. Droysen ultimately gave Paparrigopolous supposed weighty arguements that the ancient Macedonians were actually ancient Hellenes who supposedly spread Hellenic culture eastward with the reign of Alexander the Great. Droysen inspired in Paparrigopoulos a refined understanding and use of the theroretical principles of German historicism(7). Through Johan Gustav Droysen the pseudo historian Paparrigopoulos invented the fallacious term "Macedonian Hellenism" and put the pieces together of an unbroken mythological culture that stretched back from millenia's to modern times. And there we have it. Germans inventing everything neo-hellenic for the neo-hellenes.
But we are not finished here. There are many more things to bring up about German Made Greece like their Flag, their early German law system, German made libraries, German centralized police,etc. All this modernization and the Germans still had to drag the Greeks, screaming, into the nineteenth century(8). There is so much more to expose yet you the reader would end up reading a book instead of a 5 minute synopsis.

Some more history links for the period:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_Iron_(speech)
------------
Hungarian revolt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajos_Kossuth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War

[Pelister]

You have touched on an important point here - something Sovius raised in another thread about Western definitions, classifications ...etc.

The West established their own terms about what constituted "Greece" and "Greek" and Macedonian.

For example, the use of these terms were connected in the Western mind to the ancient place, and people.

They found their own meaning for the regions names, people, events and places.

The connections Droysden draws between "Greece" and "Macedonia", even though there is no evidence for it, and even though there is plenty of evidence to refute it, was the leitmotif for every Greek action against Macedonia thereafter.

[Risto the Great]

3) What did the term "greek" actually mean? Well in and out of the balkans before the rise of nationalism it simply meant "merchant". Eventually it took on different meanings like "urbanite" or "cultured" or "educated",etc. This was what is called a socio-labor label/identity.

It appears as though it was a caste system that was being tested in the Balkans. It failed.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM, the article I posted is in reference to Macedonains of pre-Christian times (especially in the reign of Filip II and Aleksandar III Makedonski and the Macedonian Successor Kingdoms/Dynasties that emerged after Alexander's death.).

As for what you state above, I am generally in agreement and commend you and your fellow "Mak Internet Warriors" for keeping up the struggle and presenting much needed relevant info to dispel many misconceptions and distortions in regards to Macedonia and Macedonians.

Cheers

Yes I understand but this article, as short as it is, still has left out other factors as to why there was this thought process in the 19th century that the ancient Macedonians were in fact ancient Hellenes. And it's the most important reason which was the Megali Idea. Failure to mention this fact means that historyofmacedonia.org has to include more than what the article states because the 3 facts I mentioned above did have a role in shifting scholars and travellers thoughts on the ancients (George Abbot for example). It also leaves out the characters that made this Megali Idea possible through propaganda. One of them being Droysen. Yet what about the Vlach prime minister Ioannis Kolletis and Constantinos Paparrigopoulos? These two, as well as a slew of others, are the prime suspects for what happened. Here's more info on it that I recommend more people read because this article in historyofmacedonia.org is good but it falls short on the whole story.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1316

http://www.maknews.com/forum/macedonian-history/propaganda-politicized-use-of-hellenism-t13138.html

http://www.maknews.com/forum/archive/kolettis-the-vlach-megali-idea-speech-t13125.html

http://www.maknews.com/forum/archive/how-fallmerayer-sparked-lies-from-greece-t12173.html

[indigen]

There's also more involved in this than this article mentions. We have to look at 3 other reasons why Macedonians were called, or considered, "greeks" by westerners.

1) Scholars like Mark Mazower, Dimitrios Livianos, Dennis Hupchick, Victor Roudometof, etc., have shown that up to the 19th century some scholars would label all Orthodox Christians as "greeks", irregardless of their true ethnic origins, or what would become their ethnic origins.

TM, the article I posted is in reference to Macedonains of pre-Christian times (especially in the reign of Filip II and Aleksandar III Makedonski and the Macedonian Successor Kingdoms/Dynasties that emerged after Alexander's death.).

As for what you state above, I am generally in agreement and commend you and your fellow "Mak Internet Warriors" for keeping up the struggle and presenting much needed relevant info to dispel many misconceptions and distortions in regards to Macedonia and Macedonians.

Cheers

[TrueMacedonian]

why would some 19th century western writers (full 20 centuries after the end of the Macedonian kingdom), make a 180 degree bold move to consider the Macedonians as "Greeks"? The answer of this question reveals two main reasons for it: 1) Personal political motivations, and 2) Lack of sufficient ancient evidence at the time.

There's also more involved in this than this article mentions. We have to look at 3 other reasons why Macedonians were called, or considered, "greeks" by westerners.

1) Scholars like Mark Mazower, Dimitrios Livianos, Dennis Hupchick, Victor Roudometof, etc., have shown that up to the 19th century some scholars would label all Orthodox Christians as "greeks", irregardless of their true ethnic origins, or what would become their ethnic origins.

2) Patriarchist propaganda. One day a village would be "Bulgarian" or Exarchist. The next day it may be "Greek" or Patriarchist. Many scholars have exhausted this obvious fact in Macedonia's history including Sir Charles Eliot, Brailsford, and modern scholars like Danforth, Brown, Karakasidiou, etc.

3) What did the term "greek" actually mean? Well in and out of the balkans before the rise of nationalism it simply meant "merchant". Eventually it took on different meanings like "urbanite" or "cultured" or "educated",etc. This was what is called a socio-labor label/identity. It had no nationalistic overtunes ,per se, before nationalism. However individuals, like the learned or businessmen, may have become "greeks by default" or imposter hellenes due to simple will when Otto's new imposter hellene kingdom became a reality(but not so much a reality, if you get where I'm coming from). This forum has so much info on this particular word and its extentional meaning that it's too obvious that Macedonia's "greeks" were most definitely "greeks" by the above points mentioned and not so much in the "ethnic" sense of the word, as bogus as that even is.

[indigen]

As the ancients knew well that the Macedonians were not Greeks but a distinct nation, and as the overwhelming evidence shows that the Macedonians did not regard themselves as Greeks, nor were regarded as Greeks by the Greeks, the question must be asked - why would some 19th century western writers (full 20 centuries after the end of the Macedonian kingdom), make a 180 degree bold move to consider the Macedonians as "Greeks"? The answer of this question reveals two main reasons for it: 1) Personal political motivations, and 2) Lack of sufficient ancient evidence at the time.

Late nineteenth and early twentieth century western historians who were inamorata with anything Greek, and saw ancient Greece as the cradle of the Western civilization, could not possibly imagine that uncouth and brute people like the ancient Macedonians could topple the Greek states (specifically Athens) and build an empire of the likes that Europe has not seen yet. They regarded Philip II of Macedon and his Macedonians as destroyer of "Greek spirit and culture", as people who extinguished the flame from the Athenian glory. Athens in particular, and the rest of the Greek city-states in general, were culturally and physically exhausted. Hogarth says that they suffered from "premature senility", incapable of growth and re-organization of its citizenry. The enthusiasm for Hellas in a cultivated modern age, and the romanticism with Greek art and culture, created an atmosphere of hatred for the person and the people (Philip and his Macedonians) who destroyed Greek autonomy. In the backdrop of such a poisonous milieu, the ancient Macedonians "could not possibly be perceived as masters of the world", for if anybody should achieve such a supreme act, they must be Greek. These people could not accept the fact that the organism in the Greek city-state, as they have come to know and appreciate, no longer breathed any signs of life, and that the Macedonians as a non-Greek nation possessed power, discipline, and inner strength to conquer not only the Greeks but the Persians too. Thus, subsequent reference to ancient Macedonians as Greeks should not come to a great surprise.

Having this in mind, some 19th century western historians, specifically German historians led by J. Droysen, saw parallelism between events which occurred in Greece and Macedonia 22 centuries ago, with those in Prussia and Germany. The 19th century is the birth of nationalism in Europe, and as Italy was unifying, Prussia was the advocate of the German unification. Therefore for the German writers:


1. When Philip II and his Macedonians conquered the Greeks after Chaeronea it was not a conquest but a "unification of Greece" (contrary to all ancient sources)

2. When Alexander the Great invaded Asia, it was the "Greek conquest and vengeance", not the Macedonian plan for action (contrary for all sources that point that the Greeks played no role in the conquest and that Alexander fought for the glory of Macedonia).

3. When the Macedonian Army conquered territories from Greece to India, it was the "Greek Empire" that received the recognition, not the Macedonian Empire (although Alexander's empire had never been called Greek in any ancient source, but specifically Macedonian).

4. More modern inventions were added - that with the conquest of Asia the "Greeks were spreading Hellenism", and that the Macedonian kingdoms after Alexander, (which were ruled till their end by Macedonians, not by Greeks), were "Hellenistic kingdoms", and so on, and so on...

Those western historians from the modern age (the ones following J. Droysen), by denying Philip and his Macedonians the merit that they so rightfully deserve, have simply ignored the writings of the ancient biographers and chroniclers. However, even with this occasional omission on their part, the inevitable recognition of Macedonians as a separate people from the Greeks does occur nevertheless in their very own works. Professor Eugene Borza who is credited as "Macedonian specialist" by the American Philological Association, and who has done extensive studies regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, had also presented in-depth analysis on this "Greek position" which claims that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. In his In the Shadow of Olympus, The Emergence of Macedon (p.91-92) he writes:

"Thus, long before there was a sufficient ancient evidence to argue about the ethnic identity--as revealed by language--of the ancient Macedonians, there emerged a "Greek" position claiming that the Macedonian language was Greek, and that thus the inhabitants were Greek."

The 19th century western writers, including J. Droysen, have therefore, developed a position that the Macedonians were Greek and invented the words Helenism and Hellenistic, long before there was sufficient ancient evidence to argue about their ethnicity. But today modern historiography had long abandoned this prematurely established "Greek" position and returned to consider the Macedonians as distinct nation just like the ancients did. The whole revisionist movement launched against the false historical interpretations and led by historians Ernst Badian from Harvard University, Borza, Bosworth, Green, and Jouguet and Hogarth and others before them, finally put an end to the historical inaccuracies and proved once for all that the Macedonians were not Greeks, did not consider themselves as Greeks, but were a proud distinct nation who kept the Greeks enslaved for centuries.

www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia