Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[Epirot]

Are you implying that the Illyrian name was a synonym for 'West Balkan Christians'? If so, in what era was this the case? Can you clarify and corroborate with some examples and sources?

Have you ever heard of "Illyrian Bulgaria"?

In 904-930 it seems that even a Byzantine and Slavonic-Byzantine stronghold like Sardica was falling under the Moesian Turkish presence and union or influence, though the local Slavinias sure were always keeping their power – recognizing formally some alliance or union with Moesian Turkihs principality, and those Slavinias were after 927-930 originating the great Illyrian empire of the Comitopouls, under Moesian Turkish king Peter I Moesian Turkish state is losing the conquests of prince Simeon, Rassa-Serbia is so separating in 927-930 and so is the neighboring Shopeskho.

It is notable that the Byzantine sources were always naming the four brothers – Slavonic-Byzantine Shope princes as “Comitopouls” that is as sons of a comita or comes-count but not being a comita for some of them, meaning that their father “the mighty comes-count of Sredets-Sofia Nikola” was losing its title long ago (before transferring it to some of his sons) – as a Byzantine either as Moesian Turkish comes-count – as his lands were since long ago losing their union with one of both monarchies and he couldn’t be succeeded from his sons as his title was lost before that. Thus the anti-Byzantine revolt of Comitopouls was started in one staying formally Byzantine land from long separated from Turkish Moesia (after Byzantine and Russian attacks over Turkish Moesia Comitopolus were starting pretending also on lands of the quickly and inevitably disappearing Moesian Turkish state).

If Moesian Turkish prince Peter I was receiving from Byzantine emperor title of Caesar or Kaiser (highest court title after imperial one in Byzantium, already received from a Moesian Turkish khan Tervel in 705) with title as patriarch for Moesian Turkish archbishop – which though staying canonically submitted to the patriarch in Constantinople (same as for example the Abkhazian patriarch-Catholicos was staying submitted to one of Georgia), great Illyrian Bulgarian Slavonic-Byzantine empire was first time establishing later known and used imperial Slavonic title as “tsar” – documented for Illyrian Bulgarian tsars Samuel and John-Vladislav (first named as “Autocrat”), and with its independent patriarchate was giving birth to first independent European national Church recognized from emperor Basil with three imperial charters in 1019-20 – the Church transferred from him important part of power over principal territories of Illyrian Bulgarian empire (that is the Illyrian Bulgaria proper) now in union with great Byzantium, the reformed from Basil “autocephalous” that is independent archbishopric of Ohrid and of “Bulgaria” was transferred the official great state seal of the Illyrian Bulgarian empire.

With its enormous territory reaching from Illyria with North Greece and Bosnia or Dalmatia to Slovakia, South Poland and South Russia or Black sea – it was first great Slavonic empire with the first Slavonic-Byzantine culture, centers and schools and Church, and which playing principal role in Christianization of neighbors Poland and Russia, strategic alliance is established with powerful Hungarian neighbor (later playing important role in Illyrian Bulgarian history, policy, directions), and empire becoming later united in a monarchical union with great Byzantium (in 1018-1204).

Union with Illyrian Bulgaria was greatest victory and success of greatest Byzantine Medieval emperor Basil II, like his contemporaries and himself are rightfully considering – for fighting Illyrian Bulgaria the empire is concentrating on Balkans after the year 1000 its principal military forces of more than 100 thousand soldiers. Byzantine attacks are ravaging principally the Slavonic-Byzantine Macedonia whose Slavinias are the traditional opposers of Byzantium.

However, John Van Antwerp Fine's book gives answer to many of your questions:

http://books.google.com/books?id=p3o...lgaria&f=false

[Epirot]

Is it a mere coincedence that a aptly named Illyrian language is spoken amogst most Slavic speaking Nations

The doesnt work out well for Albanian Nationlism

Actually it does not work out well for Pan-Slavic Nationalism because:

Albanian Ties with Illyrian

Many lines of reasoning convince linguistic scholars that the Albanian people and language originated with the ancient lllyrians.
1. The national name Albania is the name Albanoi, an Illyrian tribe mentioned by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria about A.D 150.

2. The Albanoi territory then centered at Albanopoli, between Durrės and Kruja, the heartland of modern Albania.

3. Four peoples speaking their own languages lived in the Balkans in ancient times: the Greeks in the south, the Macedonians in the center, the Thracians in the east and the lllyrians in the west. Today Albanian is spoken in most of the same region where Illyrian was spoken in ancient times.

4. Those few language elements which are known as Illyrian can be explained through the Albanian language, and no other.

5. A linguistic comparison of Albanian with ancient Greek and Latin indicates that Albanian was formed as a language at an earlier period than those other ancient languages.

6. Archeological and historical data witness to the cultural continuity from the lllyrians to the Albanians. Continual contact with other peoples and languages has left its traces in the Albanian vocabulary. Foreign words have been borrowed from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish, yet Albanian has been preserved as a separate language, its grammatical system remaining virtually unchanged.

7. Linguists point out many technical similarities between Illyrian and Albanian words.

8. Borrowings from northern Greek and from Latin incorporated in the Albanian language reflect the well-known political and cultural pressures on Illyrian territory. Linguistic studies indicate that Albanian developed from Illyrian as a distinct language between the fourth and sixth centuries A.D. Thus ancient borrowings of Greek and Latin vocabulary could not have moved directly into Albanian, but into Illyrian, through which these words entered into Albanian. Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from ancient Greek were in the Dorian dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns. Latin borrowings came later during the lengthy Roman occupation (NAlb 1986, 3:32). These ancient Greek and Roman contacts occurred precisely in the territory of old Illyria, leaving their traces in the Illyrian language from which they later passed into the Albanian language.

9. Illyrian toponyms, ancient Illyrian place names for cities, rivers and mountains, are preserved today in the Albanian language, and only in Albanian. The names of Balkan villages usually lasted only a few centuries,
for villages were often destroyed altogether during wartime. Cities lasted longer, so their names were usually older. But rivers, lakes and mountains endured through the centuries, and their ancient names usually continued in use. Even new inhabitants usually adopted the old names, just as American colonists adopted many old Indian place names in the United States. Accordingly, Albanian linguists have found more than 300 names of ancient cities like Shkodra, rivers like the Drin and mountains like Tomor which were mentioned by ancient Greek and Roman geographers or historians and which are still in use in Albania. Scholars show how the rules of historical phonetics explain any changes of spelling over the centuries from Illyrian to Albanian, as Scupi to Shkup, Scodra to Shkodra, Lissus to Lezha, Durrachium to Durrės, Drinus to Drin, Mathis to Mat. Certainly the Albanian language is derived from the Illyrian (Cabej 1985, 42-62).

10. Illyrian proper names continue in use among present-day Albanians. Many of the individual Illyrian names of persons were preserved on epitaphs and inscriptions on coins. Then the names of other people like the Illyrian rulers Agron and Teuta were mentioned by Greek or Roman historians. The Albanian scholar Mahri Domi claims to have identified 800 of these (Liria 15 October 1982; 1 November 1983).

11. The numerous marine terms for sea plants and animals in the Albanian language show that these people lived along the coast on what would correspond with Illyrian territory (AT 1983, 1:44-45).

12. Then there are other words in Albanian which Greek or Roman writers long ago explicitly identified as Illyrian in origin.
Down through the centuries many once great peoples have been either destroyed or assimilated by others so as to disappear altogether. But the Illyrian people with their distinctive dress, music, customs and especially their language have persisted in their shrinking territory along the western shore of the Balkan Peninsula. With no record or tradition even hinting at their extermination or assimilation or migration, one can only assume their unbroken historical continuity. There seems to be no question but that the present-day Albanians are the historically uninterrupted descendants of the lllyrians who were known to have inhabited that same region in early Greek and Roman times.

Taken from: The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present, Edwin E. Jacques – 1995, pg.37 – 38.

[Dejan]

Can someone please tell me - what significant marks have the illyrians left in history? We know what the ancient Macedonians have done, and we know alot about the Roman empire, but how do the illyrians fit in the picture? Have they left a language/culture? Were they conquerers? I'm not bagging them out or anything, but I find it hard to see how they are as important/influential/relevant as other ancient civilisations who left huge traces of their culture behind. I don't know much about the history of the illyrians, but to me it sounds as though some modern nations are trying hard to find a connection to antiquity when they mention their ties with illyrians. And seeing as though not many people know about the history of the illyrians, these nations can make up whatever suits their agenda about the illyrians.

[Onur]

The Albanian language which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom the majority have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian'

J.Wilkes 'Illyrians' page 278

While i believe this Albanian-Illyrian connection is nothing more than an Antiquity phenomenon created by nationalistic ideas of post 18th century but i read several articles about Albanian language`s distinctive features than other languages used by surrounding cultures.

I posted an article about languages here b4;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3389

Both vocabulary and grammar features of several languages gets calculated by computer software program here and Albanian shows it`s distinction to a certain degree than other Indo-European languages, like the Irish.

But i checked the wikipedia for earliest text in Albanian. It says that the earliest Albanian text is dated at 1462!!! This is really weird. If Albanian is really descended from Illyrian language and if it shows some distinctive features then how come it`s earliest text is that recent date? If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I brought up a link of Wiki in order to present his biography. Here is an article regarding Illyrian confederacy orchestrated by Bushati:

http://vargmal.org/dan5230

I guess you can use 'Google translator' for a translation since in its current form the article is in Albanian.

Epirot, can you produce a copy of a charter, document, currency, etc or anything else that says "Illyrian Confederacy" from the time and realm of Bushati?

By the early fourteenth century there are also signs of a long-established Albanian presence in the mountains of Montenegro, and as far north as the Ragusan hinterland.

KOSOVO A SHORT HISTORY, Noel Malcolm, 1999, pg. 28

What signs?

Skeene emphasized that northern Albanian boundaries reaches as far as Hercegovina.

Who else speaks of Albanians all the way up to Hercegovina? In the same link you provided http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html - Skene also says the following:

The tribe of the Ghegs and Mirdites are of lofty stature and athletic frame; and their swarthy complexion and black eyes still retain the characteristics of their supposed Caucasian origin.

The Toskides are the most handsome of the Albanians. They have noble features, with fair hair and blue eyes, indicating the mixture of Georgian blood, which probably flows in their veins.....

The Albanian language being merely oral, the want of written documents renders their history exceedingly obscure, and the silence preserved by the Greek and Byzantine writers on the subject has reduced the data within a very narrow compass. They are called Arvaniti by the Greeks, and Arnaout by the Turks, both names being derived, along with that of Albanians, from the Albanes, an ancient people of the shores of the Caspian Sea, which may have incorporated itself with the Illyrians.

Do you agree with Skene in this regard?

Being linked with Epirots, as I said before, do not reject our Illyrian lineage because Epirots are nothing but southern Illyrian group of tribes.

Which ancient authors specifically speak of the Epirotes as an Illyrian tribe?

Have you ever heard of "Illyrian Bulgaria"?

Yes I have, but that doesn't answer the question I posed. The text you provided merely indicates that the Illyrian region was under an empire or archbishopric labelled 'Bulgarian', it does not indicate that the Illyrian name was a synonym for all 'West Balkan Christians'.

4. Those few language elements which are known as Illyrian can be explained through the Albanian language, and no other.

That's a lie mate. Illyrians have the word 'Osseriates' for a lake. In Macedonian a lake is 'Ezero', in Albanian it is 'Liqen'. Which one looks closer to you?

5. A linguistic comparison of Albanian with ancient Greek and Latin indicates that Albanian was formed as a language at an earlier period than those other ancient languages.

Can you cite some examples of this?

6. Archeological and historical data witness to the cultural continuity from the lllyrians to the Albanians. Continual contact with other peoples and languages has left its traces in the Albanian vocabulary. Foreign words have been borrowed from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish, yet Albanian has been preserved as a separate language, its grammatical system remaining virtually unchanged.

What archaeological and historical data of continuity? Can you be more specific? If there is no record of an Illyrian sentence or paragraph, how could you possibly know that the grammatical system has remained virtually unchanged? Unchanged since when?

9. Illyrian toponyms, ancient Illyrian place names for cities, rivers and mountains, are preserved today in the Albanian language, and only in Albanian.

That's another lie, several ancient Illyrian placenames are still preserved by other people in the Balkans. The word 'Bosnia' itself is of Illyrian origin and is still used today.

10. Illyrian proper names continue in use among present-day Albanians. Many of the individual Illyrian names of persons were preserved on epitaphs and inscriptions on coins. Then the names of other people like the Illyrian rulers Agron and Teuta were mentioned by Greek or Roman historians. The Albanian scholar Mahri Domi claims to have identified 800 of these (Liria 15 October 1982; 1 November 1983).

Tell me, how many Agron's and Teuta's were there among Albanians prior to the 19th century?

11. The numerous marine terms for sea plants and animals in the Albanian language show that these people lived along the coast on what would correspond with Illyrian territory (AT 1983, 1:44-45).

Not all, but the majority of marine terms in Albanian derive from a Latin source, be it Italian, Venetian, or in some cases Vulgar Latin. Even the word for 'fisherman' in Albanian (Peshkatar) is taken from Italian - Pescatore.

With regard to John Wilkes, see my below responses:

The Albanian language which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom the majority have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian'

J.Wilkes 'Illyrians' page 278

Whoever supplied you this quote has manipulated the words of John Wilkes. The original passage says the following:

........which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom several have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian.

Why was the word "several" changed with "majority"? I trust that this is not your doing, is it? If you need further corroboration from my end, I am more than happy to scan and post the page up here, which will prove that your quote is distorted. A simple change of words changes the meaning of the text, and with the version that you have supplied it suggests that Albanian has been accepted as Illyrian by almost everyone, which is clearly not the case.

'It is not doubted whether or not Albs are indigenous, its whether they were directly from Albania or from some northern part. For instance, it is argued, that Albanians have their origins in Southern Serbia ' (Wilkes: 224

Epirot, I have the book in front of me right now. Nowhere on page 224 does it have the above which you quoted. Can you please clarify the page number or if this is another distortion?

The quote on modern Albanians being "short and dark skinned" is not his. It was taken from the book 'Skeletal evidence' of Alexander Stipcevic, page 262, published over thirty years ago (in 1977). Stipcevic himself claims that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians !!!!

After all Wilkes isn't anthropologist or he hasn't make any specific research on the physical stature of Albanians. Instead of citing an inaccurate statement, it's time to ask from authorities on that matter.

Hang on second mate, there is no citation of an inaccurate statement, this is exactly what it writes in Wilkes' book, page 219, Chapter 8 - Life and Death among Illyrians. Furthermore, the reference point (1) to Stipcevic is for the sub-title "ways of life", and not for the specific statement. Granted, this may have been taken directly from Stipcevic, but Wilkes has used it to emphasis the weakness of those claiming that there is a direct genetical link between Albanians and Illyrians. John Wilkes is considered an authority on the Illyrians, and his works are objective enough to be considered more plausable than most others where it concerns this topic.

You have obviously misinterpreted what John Wilkes was making reference to, and that much is obvious by your subsequent list of quotations that speak of tall and blonde Albanians. If you have read Wilkes' book adequately, you will realise that he too states that the average Illyrian male was about 1.65 metres, hardly 'tall' by any means. However, just because Albanians tend to be short and dark-skinned (not my words), this does not mean they are related to the Illyrians. That was what he was saying. So, retrospectively, going back to what you have just said about the tall and blonde Albanians, your suggestion works against you.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.

One would think so, although many languages only began to employ a properly codified alphabet from the medieval period, such as the Macedonians and the other Slavic-speaking people of Europe, resulting from the need for literature and biblical translations. Until then, other alphabets were used, and even other languages for official purposes.

I guess one of my questions would be, if the Albanians were in the Balkans before records began to refer to the locals as 'Slavs', then why isn't there an Albanian literature prior to that point?

[Prolet]

if the Albanians were in the Balkans before records began to refer to the locals as 'Slavs', then why isn't there an Albanian literature prior to that point?

Good Point SOM

The Albanians are divided into two tribes, Gegite and Toskite. The Gegi were in the mountains are were not educated (Ne Pismeni) so they are using the Tosk alphabet.

[Soldier of Macedon]

1. Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.). Even in modern times, specifically in Gheg dialect is preserved a such trait short of 'Asht' in 'A'. What's about 'Spetos'. If we drop out the last suffix 'os' the word become on 'Spet' which is an earlier form of Alb. 'Shpejtė' mean 'fast, quick' because again in Gheg dialect we find an another variation from standard form of Albanian 'Shpejtė' in 'Shpetė'. Suma Summarum after this summarized explanation we come to the central point: Aspetos is transparently equivalent with Alb. 'A shpetė',
Aspetos = A shpetė mean 'He is fast/quickly'.

I have also seen a connection proposed to the word for 'sword' in Albanian, which I will just highlight that, from the dictionaries I have seen, it is not "shpete" in Albanian, but "shpate". It is an interesting example, and it does seem possible. However, let's look at some other similarly formed words to compare. The word "shpate" looks very close to the English word 'spade', and if we look at the Albanian word for 'spade', it is a borrowing from either Macedonian, Serbian or another related language (as most Slavic langauges have a similar word for spade or shovel):

Lopata (Macedonian)
Lopate (Albanian for spade)
Shpate (Albanian for sword)

Important also is the fact that items that resemble a 'spade' have been used as weapons. If 'shpate' is an Albanian word, yet looks similar to and shares the same word ending as 'lopate', which is not an Albanian word (by origin), then how did 'shpate' come about?

[makedonin]

In respect to the Osseriates word for lake, In Macedonian is Ezero, while in Russian Ozero (Озеро).

Osseriates> Ozero (Озеро) > Ezero is quitre reasonable phonetic development, taken that the meaning is the same. It means lake! There are many morphologic examples where, the 's' character morphes to 'z'. Also the 'Osseriates' fragment is present in Macedonian language, the modern form taken 'Ezeroto' and 'Ezerata' wich denotes if plural or singular when relation to the word is builded. Example, 'Ezeroto e mirno' or 'Ezerata se mirni'.

As for the Albanian word 'Asht' meaning 'is', I know that this word is only a variation used by some educated people in Albania. The original word is 'ėshtė', where 'ė' is the dark silable similar as in Macedonian " ' " or the old Church slavonic character 'Ъ' it is a stress sighn, it is a throat voice, a form of depressed short 'E'.

It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa ėshtė ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'

So the whole method of explaining in the

Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.).

is erroneous and missleading. The 'A' represented as short trait of 'asht' is not 'waterproof' also for other reason. There is no valuable example in Albanian where 'Asht' morphes in only 'A', as far as I am aware. The root of the word is 'sht' where the 'sh' sound is development of 's' sound. It is easier to prove that 'ėshtė' can be related to the Serbian 'jeste', or the morphed Misirkov 'iетъ' which means the same, and has the same root with the German 'ist' and ultimately with the Latin 'est' which also means 'is', and can be separated as (j)este<>est<>ėshtė. The 'A' in 'asht' is only coincidence and corruption, as are the 'J' in 'jeste' etc.

[Epirot]

Can someone please tell me - what significant marks have the illyrians left in history? We know what the ancient Macedonians have done, and we know alot about the Roman empire, but how do the illyrians fit in the picture? Have they left a language/culture? Were they conquerers? I'm not bagging them out or anything, but I find it hard to see how they are as important/influential/relevant as other ancient civilisations who left huge traces of their culture behind. I don't know much about the history of the illyrians, but to me it sounds as though some modern nations are trying hard to find a connection to antiquity when they mention their ties with illyrians. And seeing as though not many people know about the history of the illyrians, these nations can make up whatever suits their agenda about the illyrians.

It is not fair to minimize the role of Illyrians in the civilization. Of course Illyrian text does not exist as well as in Macedonian, Epirotic, Dacian etc but this cannot serve as a validate proof that both these people were backward culturally and economically. We know for sure that if those people did not exist, the "hellenic" civilization would not be such as we know.

Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops brought over peoples from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus — and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, Cadmeia by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called "Syes." Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names — Cecrops, Codrus, Aļclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians — Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...trabo/7G*.html

Strabo based into an earlier account of Hecateus makes known that the pre-greek Greece was held by certain 'barbarian' tribes such as: Illyrians, Epirots, Thracians, Leleges, Pelasgians, Phrygians, etc. Later on after the dark age such peoples were diminished and pushed mainly northwards in the flanks of 'Greeks' which mean the line marked by Gulf of Ambracia up to the Peneus river was inhabited by Barbarians. That's the real meaning of: "though this was still more the case formerly than now".

The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians; there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus, where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…We have seen that there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians|

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false

"the Pelasg that is the people before the Hellas Greeks, were Illyrian. Their language would have been Indo-Germanic, a dialect of the Illyrian-Thracian language, and Etruskan was a later dialect of the latter. The Thracians and Illyrians would have been
the link between the central (Italic, Greek, Aryan)
and the southern (Pelasg, Luwiy, Hittite) Indo-Germanic groups".

Vladimir Ivanov Georgiev

Even Alexander the Great was conscious of the importance of these 'Barbarians':

...Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe" (Arrian, ALEXANDRI ANABASIS, BOOK II, 7,3)

Due them Alexander's campaigns were entirely fierce and successful!

[Epirot]

But i checked the wikipedia for earliest text in Albanian. It says that the earliest Albanian text is dated at 1462!!! This is really weird. If Albanian is really descended from Illyrian language and if it shows some distinctive features then how come it`s earliest text is that recent date? If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.

The oldness of a language is not determined necessary by the written document since many written languages of antiquity are extincted because of many factors. Imagine if written documents of Alexandria's library would exists in nowadays... our knowledge and conceptions about languages would be entirely different.

In 3200 BC, there were many, many languages spoken besides Sumerian and Egyptian, but they weren't fortunate enough to have a writing system. These languages are just as old. To take one interesting case, the Albanian language (spoken north of Greece) was not written down until about the 15th century AD, yet Ptolemy mentions the people in the first century BC.* The linguistic and archaeological evidence suggests that Albanians were a distinct people for even longer than that. So Albanian has probably existed for several millennia, but has only been written down for 500 years. With a twist of fate, Albanian might be considered very "old" and Greek pretty "new".

Elizabeth Pyatt , Pennsylvania State University.

http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/oldest.cfm

[Epirot]

Epirot, can you produce a copy of a charter, document, currency, etc or anything else that says "Illyrian Confederacy" from the time and realm of Bushati?

All what I posses for the moment aren't available online in net libraries and archives. Documents and references about 'Illyrian Confederacy' established by Bushati is in Albanian...so it need some time to get a proper translation that actually I am not able to do.

1786

"An assemly of Albanian, Montenegrin and Bosnian chiefs is held in Podgorica. They decide to unite against Turks in a league called "Illyrian Confederacy" with Karamahmud Bushati Pasha as a president."

http://www.dardania.de/vb/upload/showthread.php?t=17585

Originally posted by SoM

What signs?

Both ethnically and culturally... I guess that it is enough to remind just some glimpses.

Many maps shows a compact Albanian presence through the hinterland of Montenegro to the outskirts of Dubrovnik.



The epic songs of southern Bosnia, Montenegro and Sandjak of Novi Pazar bears a strong influence of Albanian epic songs.

-The Albanian song has in Lika the place name of Kotorret e reja, while Boshnjak or Croatian one do not, meaning that the Albanian singer was himself in Lika.
-The Croatian poet Andrea Kaciq Mioshiq sings for indeqinous Albanian units Croats in Bosnia; most probably these units also had had their own singers.
-Serbo-Croatian studies accept that Boshnjak songs originated in the 17th century in Lika, and from there came to Bosnia, and corresponds withg the existence of Ceta of Muji and Halili there*, meaning that the Boshnjak song was created under the influence of Albanian epic song.
-The most enthusiastic s/c authors could only rationalize the spread of Boshnjak to Albania by attributing it to “boza’ and “hallva’ makers or soldiers; it is doubtful if the letter were in Bosnia, but even if they had been they had to have been from Albanian cities where no Kreshnik epic existed. With no other facts, the claim has to be considered naļve.
-The fact the Albanian cycle is cultivated in villages, and not in any village, but in Malsia, means that it had always a specific purpose, as is revealed to be the resistance against foreign occupiers.
-The fact that the Boshnjak epic is pro-Sultan and is devoted to Islam, where as the Albanian epic songs of Malsi are predominantly against Sultan points to a basic difference between the two epic song traditions.
-The fact that the Albanian epic song is motivated against kraals of Midieval Serbia some hundred years earlier than the Boshnjak epic, in reality points to the Albanian song being some hundred years older than the Boshnjak epic.
-The fact that Albanian language words are traced in Boshnjak and Croat epic songs, means that the seed of the latter come from Albanian singers, who still sing songs(at least up to the 1950’s) from the Boshnjak cycle in the Valley of Novi Pazar.
-The fact the Boshnjak epic song has an Albanian protagonist named Arnaut Osmani who is a nephew of Mui affirms that Bosnian Mui is also Albanian.
-The fact that the Serbo-Croatians have in their epic many songs, legends, ballads and motives which are common with the Arbresh of Italy, a proof that these elements are cultivated in the Albanian popular poetry before 15th century, at a time during which popular poetry was not known by the S/C.

The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe… are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion

`Races of Europe’ Carlton S. Coon Chapter 14:The Greeks 1939

Medieval chronicles speak of a Albanian nation stretching from highlands of Herzegovina and up to Aetolia in south. A large number of foreign geographers have specified that the border of Albania touched present day Herzegovina. Thus, the prominent Danish geographer Condrad Malte Brun (1755-1826) writes that: “No geographer has determined the extent of Arnaoutlik, a country that borders on Rascia, Macedonia and Bosnia”.

Edmund Spencer says:

‘In personal appearance the mountaineers of Tchernegora rather resemble their neighbors in Albania, than their brethren in Servia; there is the same nervous, lofty form, animated expression, and a certain degree of saucy audacity in their manners and bearing; they have also imbibed from their neighbors many of their customs and manners, particularly the belief in retributive justice, and that blood can only be expiated by blood, consequently sanguinary conflicts frequently break out between different tribes‘.

Originally posted by SoM

Do you agree with Skene in this regard?

No I don't agree! The supposed Caucasian origin of Albanians it is just an obsolete and out-dated hypothesis that took places among some Romantic writers that thought coincidence of names as a validate proof of origin of Albanians. History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans.

Originally posted by SoM

Which ancient authors specifically speak of the Epirotes as an Illyrian tribe?

Not directly but implicitly many ancients emphasize the kinship between Illyrians and Epirots. There is no clear frontier between Epirus and Illyria or all "distinctions" of Illyria from Epirus is geographical rather then ethnical. Many Illyrian tribes were in some cases are recognized as Epirotic.

The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians; there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus, where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…We have seen that there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians|

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false

The penetration of the Illyrians into northern Greece in the twelfth century BC led to the decay of the flourishing Mycenaean culture and to a complete upheaval in Greek political history. First, Epirus and Aetolia were engulfed by the wave of the Illyrian invasion.
Epirus which had been in greater part Hellenized and whose religious center was the sanctuary of Zeus in Dodona, became once more Illyrian. Aetolia, a flourishing land in Homeric times, lapsed into almost complete barbarism. A great many of the Aetolians crossed the Corinthian Gulf, subjected the native Greek population, and settled in the land which became known as Elis.

(~Early Christian and Byzantine political philosophy ~ Francis Dvornķk - 1966)

[Epirot]

It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa ėshtė ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'

The 'A' represented as short trait of 'asht' is not 'waterproof' also for other reason. There is no valuable example in Albanian where 'Asht' morphes in only 'A', as far as I am aware.

In the Tosc dialect the respective word for "is" is 'ėshtė' but in Gheg dialect (that bears more archaic traits) is 'asht'. As I expanded previously in some remote northern regions (Shkoder, Pukė, Mirditė) even in Kosova (Drenicė region) 'asht' is contracted in 'a'. They do not say for instance 'Sa asht ora' (What time is it?) but 'Sa a ora'.

[makedonin]

As I expanded previously in some remote northern regions (Shkoder, Pukė, Mirditė) even in Kosova (Drenicė region) 'asht' is contracted in 'a'. They do not say for instance 'Sa asht ora' (What time is it?) but 'Sa a ora'.

Words regression is known to be modern version of archaic words. So, even if I take your word that it is 'Sa a ora' in some remote regions, that would still be a new corruption and regression of 'ashtė' which again is corruption or dialectial feature of 'ėshtė'.

It is rather simple to follow it.

The root of the word is 'st' as in Latin 'est', German 'ist', Serbian 'Jeste', Romanian 'este', French 'est' even the corrupted Spanish 'es' or the corrupted English 'is', all meaning the same, 'is'. Even the Macedonian 'e' is corrupted version of the same root 'st' and comes from the old church slavonic version of it, as 'jes-' for the verb 'be'.

Since Latin can be dated through sources the other words can be compared and their corruption and development can be followed. That is why they are called IE languages. They share same roots. So you compare relative new regression of the word and take it as if being ancient, wich is achronological and bears no logic.

There are two possibilities for the puzzling 'A' in your word, either it is the Greek negation as in the words 'asynchronus' , 'achronological ' etc.

Or

Alpha may be long or short and is pronounced O as in "not." as proposed here:

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/pronunciation.html

According to that pronounciation preposition, your word 'Aspetos' will be pronounced something like 'Ospetos'.

[Soldier of Macedon]

All what I posses for the moment aren't available online in net libraries and archives. Documents and references about 'Illyrian Confederacy' established by Bushati is in Albanian...so it need some time to get a proper translation that actually I am not able to do.

Epirot, in the absence of such evidence or a credible citation that makes reference to such evidence, how are we to confirm the validity of your statement?

Both ethnically and culturally... I guess that it is enough to remind just some glimpses.

Unfortunately, the statement on its own is not enough without corroboration.

No I don't agree! The supposed Caucasian origin of Albanians it is just an obsolete and out-dated hypothesis that took places among some Romantic writers that thought coincidence of names as a validate proof of origin of Albanians. History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans.

But Skene is the source you initially used to indicate Albanian living space in Hercegovina, is it not? In fact, he bases the 'look' of the Albanians on people from the Caucasus. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory for your people, but this is coming from your own source, for which you should have had counter-arguments already prepared.

Many Illyrian tribes were in some cases are recognized as Epirotic.

Which tribes?

The penetration of the Illyrians into northern Greece in the twelfth century BC led to the decay of the flourishing Mycenaean culture and to a complete upheaval in Greek political history. First, Epirus and Aetolia were engulfed by the wave of the Illyrian invasion.
Epirus which had been in greater part Hellenized and whose religious center was the sanctuary of Zeus in Dodona, became once more Illyrian. Aetolia, a flourishing land in Homeric times, lapsed into almost complete barbarism. A great many of the Aetolians crossed the Corinthian Gulf, subjected the native Greek population, and settled in the land which became known as Elis.

(~Early Christian and Byzantine political philosophy ~ Francis Dvornķk - 1966)

This quote seems to be suggesting that the Dorians were in fact Illyrians. Do you agree with that suggestion?

Epirot, what is your opinion on why Macedonians use a cognate for the Illyrian word 'osseriates'? It cannot possibly be a loanword because the Russians and Czechs also use the same word. So how is this possible, unless Illyrian is a tongue related to those later known as 'Slavic'?