Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM do you know what the term phonological development means?

I believe the answer to that would be yes, unless I have been locked in an underground cave all of my life with no access to reading material or the internet. Let me know if you have any more similarly presumptuous and silly questions.

You're assuming that two words that seem similar to you

What, they only look similar to me, and not to you? I find your effort to negate the similarity of the two words quite comical, given that they represent exactly the same thing and that they are spelled in exactly the same way. I doubt the sound in each when pronounced differs in any significant way, it's not exactly a tongue-twister of a word. There is really only a few ways to pronounce 'gisht', and they're all similar.

belong in the same era(which they obviously don't as I explained above) etc.

Your explanation was invalid. The term used by both the Albanians and the Zazaki today is not only similar, it is exactly the same. Have you looked into the history of the Zazaki word to prove beyond doubt that it hasn't followed a similar phonological development? Any reason why you think it wouldn't, aside from your desire to try and distance Albanian from Iranian languages, or some possible Illyrian fantasy that you harbour?

You'd be making the same mistake with the word "name" that is the same in English and Zezaki.

Not exactly, because although Germanic and Iranian languages are both IE, they do not belong to common sub-groups that branched away from PIE. The same cannot be said with certainty regarding the Albanian language. What you need to ask yourself is this: Which other IE language today uses something similar to 'gisht' for 'finger', aside from Albanian and Zazaki? Come back with some answers on that, and I may start to take your intervention here a little more seriously. It is quite a unique word so I am genuinely interested if anybody else uses it. All I am doing is exploring a possibility, and it's not like I am the first person to suggest a common link between Albanian and Iranian languages.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Maybe it is not that convincing to you, but the mainstream of modern linguists consider Albanian as being derived from either Illyrian and Thracian.

The reason why they tend to classify Albanian as either Illyrian or Thracian is because they haven't been able to classify it within any other modern IE linguistic family, and the reason for this is the significant bastardisation of the language since it began from Proto-Albanian. It has nothing to do with their concrete certainty that Albanian was indeed either Illyrian or Thracian.

I am aware that the information regarding these ancient idioms is extremely scarce, but we have to deal only with those glosses, words, toponymes that have links to modern languages. And a sizable number of them are linked with the Albanian.

But there are several more lexical correspondences that Thraco-Illyrian shares with Balto-Slavic. Shouldn't it be the other way around, if Albanian is the true descendant of these languages?

I am left far from being persuaded.

If I can't persuade you with regard to that point, then take a look at a map from antiquity and a map from today, and you will persuade yourself when you notice that the overwhelming majority of territory inhabited by the Thracians and Illyrians is today peopled by Balto-Slavic speakers.

If the speakers of Balto-Slavic are more representatives of Thracians than Albanians, then can you corroborate further your assertion with other arguments.

Aside from the geographical connection, language is another strong indicator. Sound changes, fundamental vocabulary and even lexical innovations are all probable. I will cite some examples in the other thread relating to the Macedonian and Albanian linguistic comparison.

For instance, is there any cultural similarity of Balto-Slavs with the Thracians?

For the large part, culture evolves over the centuries, so I am not sure if too many placid and direct connections can be established between a modern culture and an ancient one. John Wilkes cites several possible examples between Illyrian and South Slavic cultures. Can you be more specific? Is there something that culturally links Albanians to Thracians or Illyrians that isn't shared by any other Balkan culture?

Romans saw no difference at all between Mysians, Dacians and Illyrians.

I believe that all of the Paleo-Balkan peoples were linguistically related in a manner similar to how the majority of the Balkan populations are today, that majority being speakers of South Slavic languages. The reason why the Romans saw no difference is also attributed to the fact that they basically named the whole of the Balkan peninsula after Illyria, most probably because the Illyrians were geographically closest to Italy.

The original is in Italian. I will find it and post here!

Please do. I am curious to know how this was recorded as a quote by Skenderbeg. Did the author of the text know him personally?

[Epirot]

Epirot, it`s quite normal for your language to have this level of similarity with Polish, Thracian or with any slavic tongue but this doesn't prove much and it`s not enough to claim that Thracian, Dacian and Albanian were/are close relative languages.

Onur, I agree with you that there is no enough linguistical stuff because the heritage of ancient Paleo-Balkans languages is fairly scarce. In absence of inscriptions (neither Thracian nor Illyrian were written languages) we are compelled to deal only with a handful of glosses, words, toponymes and anthroponymes. In the present state of things, many Thracian and Illyrian words can be etymologized via Albanian. The link of Albanian with both Illyrian and Thracian are strengthen even from supportive evidences like: cultural, geographical and historical ones. The Albanian inhabited area stands in what once was called as Southern Illyria (Dardania, Praevalitana, Epirus Nova, Epirus Vetus). The Thracian component in Albanian may be explained from any latter migration of Northern Thracians who were pressured to leave their native lands from 'Barbarian' invanders.

[Onur]

Among the cognates between Thracian and Albanian: the Thracian inscription mezenai on the Duvanli gold ring has been unanimously linked to Messapian menzana (=horse deity) to Albanian mėz (=pony), as well as to Romanian mānz (=colt), and it is agreed that Thracian mezenai meant 'horseman'; Thracian manteia is supposed to be cognate to Albanian mand (=mulberry). It may also be connected to the Slavic mantija (=cloak). Sorin Paliga, a linguist at the academy of Bucharest, recently linked Romanian buză (=lip) and Albanian buzė (=lip) to the Thracian personal names Buzas, Buzo, Buzes. This word also exists in Bulgarian where it means 'cheek', in Serbian obraz means 'cheek', in Macedonian with the meaning of 'lip', and in Polish buzia where it means 'mouth' or 'lips'.

Epirot, it`s quite normal for your language to have this level of similarity with Polish, Thracian or with any slavic tongue but this doesn't prove much and it`s not enough to claim that Thracian, Dacian and Albanian were/are close relative languages.

Also, these similarities are evident in all languages of the world. For example, if i remember correctly, Anatolian Hittites of 1700 BC were calling "water" as "watah". Or i can give you a list of 900+ Sumerian words from 3500 BC which exists in today`s Turkic languages or 1400+ in today`s Hungarian. So, just because we can find these similarities, today`s English people were neighbors/relatives of Hittites?? or today`s Hungarians, Turks relatives of Sumerians??

[Bratot]

Among the cognates between Thracian and Albanian: the Thracian inscription mezenai on the Duvanli gold ring has been unanimously linked to Messapian menzana (=horse deity) to Albanian mėz (=pony), as well as to Romanian mānz (=colt), and it is agreed that Thracian mezenai meant 'horseman'; Thracian manteia is supposed to be cognate to Albanian mand (=mulberry). It may also be connected to the Slavic mantija (=cloak). Sorin Paliga, a linguist at the academy of Bucharest, recently linked Romanian buză (=lip) and Albanian buzė (=lip) to the Thracian personal names Buzas, Buzo, Buzes. This word also exists in Bulgarian where it means 'cheek', in Serbian obraz means 'cheek', in Macedonian with the meaning of 'lip', and in Polish buzia where it means 'mouth' or 'lips'.

So everything can be linked to slavic with much more certainity.

If one can link menzana with mėz than I guess we can add Macedonian 'mazga'(mule) or 'magare'(donkey) as well.

[makedonin]

For instance, is there any cultural similarity of Balto-Slavs with the Thracians?

There certainly are some but we first have to establish what were this Thracian cultural traits!

Now, not that I agree with all that the following author has written, but she made a interesting observation about Macedonian customs:

It was the Thracian Rider, a deity worshipped all over ancient Thrace and Macedonia, whom some think to be a form of Rhesus, the hero of whom Homer wrote. . He had a long lease of life, for the Roman legionaries of Thracian origin went on worshipping him, and his shrines are found wherever the legions went, and in Rome itself. You may find several sculptures representing him in the Budapest Museum. The mystery of Prince Marko was solved. There had been two similar processes and a synthesis of the results.

The cult of the Thracian rider was practiced in Prilep, and was driven underground by Christianity; but it never left the hearts of the people but it never left the hearts of the people, who in this uncomfortable life liked to think of a comfortable immortal, happy as eternities long, unacquainted with pain. Even so, when prince Marko was lowered from power to vassalhood he too never left the hearts of the people, who under the yoke of the Turk liked to think of the milder yoke of this reflective Christian prince. Therefore the two became fused in the common mind, the happy god, the sad mortal, and the imagination of folk-song followed now one strain and now another in this entanglement of opposites.

from the Web Archive > Rebecca West
for download the relevant part: Rebecca West

Rusalii - Macedonian Ethnic Dance.

Up from 7:20 you can watch Rusalii dance:
YouTube - Folk dances and songs ensemble-Tanec,Macedonia (Part3)

YouTube - Folk dances and songs ensemble-Tanec,Macedonia (Part4)

[Epirot]

No 'linguistic circles' have produced any convincing arguments in favour of Albanian being descended from Illyrian (or Thracian, for that matter). And if there was anything, you would have already posted it on this forum by now (given the previous discussions). The connection you speak of is basically limited to a handful of words, and for each correspondence that Albanian has with either Illyrian or Thracian, there are several more in Balto-Slavic.

.

Maybe it is not that convincing to you, but the mainstream of modern linguists consider Albanian as being derived from either Illyrian and Thracian. I am aware that the information regarding these ancient idioms is extremely scarce, but we have to deal only with those glosses, words, toponymes that have links to modern languages. And a sizable number of them are linked with the Albanian.

Balto-Slavic-speaking peoples live in the overwhelming majority of the territory (both south and north of the Danube) where Illyrians and Thracians lived. If anybody is representative on geographical grounds, it is them, and not the Albanians.

I am left far from being persuaded. If the speakers of Balto-Slavic are more representatives of Thracians than Albanians, then can you corroborate further your assertion with other arguments. For instance, is there any cultural similarity of Balto-Slavs with the Thracians?

Either way, there is nothing to suggest an Albanian (Christian or Muslim) connection to Dacia prior to the 16th century - it all appears to have taken place during the Ottoman period.

I will dedicate this response to your previous question about Illyrian-Thracian linguistic similarities. So, the Illyrian influence toward Dacia begun at least from Appian’s times. Romans saw no difference at all between Mysians, Dacians and Illyrians.

There I shall tell more about the Mysians. For the present, since the Romans consider the Mysians a part of Illyria and this is my Illyrian history, in order that it may be complete it seems proper to premise that Lucullus invaded Mysia as a general of the republic and that Tiberius took it in the time of the empire.

CHAPTER V

Where is that quote cited? I can't seem to find a source for it on the internet.

The original is in Italian. I will find it and post here!

[Epirot]

Do you have any information on Michael Attaliates? He apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042. I have seen this repeated on the internet, but never confirmed with a source.

Well...I have to check it out in my files once again what does really meant Michael Attaliates with the 'Arbanitai' of Sicilia. As far as I remember, he nowhere implied that Albanians of Dyrrachium were transplanted there from Sicily. I find it as fairly non-plausible because how could a few mercenaries impose their name to a people, who during Middle age had a great territorial extension.

Epirot, what can you tell us about this? Information on the internet seems to be extremely scarce, with the main source being the below (which itself doesn't go into too much detail):

In fact, the period between VII century (when Slavic upheaval seem to cease) up to the X century contains only a few accounts for the situation in the inner Balkans. Almost all Byzantine accounts were concentrated mainly in the struggles to gain the royal throne in Constandinople or in eventual secessionist riots that took place in several parts of Byzantine Empire. During this time, Byzantine chroniclers did not pay much attention about post-Illyrian remnants like Albanians or Vlachs, who were retained in the distant mountain regions of Montenegro, Dardania and Epirus.

[Droog]

I used google translate as I didn't have any Albanian dictionaries near me at the time. For the word 'hand' it listed 'gisht' lower on the list, which suggest that in some context it can also be used to refer to a 'hand'. Is this incorrect? If so, go and advise your kinsmen at google translate who provided the translation. I hardly need your advice on the basic rules of linguistics, offer it to someone who wants to go backward in your direction. Furthermore, you don't need to waste my time with your elementary understanding of how cognates work. If you wanted to reply with something clever, you should have shown me which other languages aside from Albanian and Iranian use the word 'gisht' for a 'finger'. Can you manage that?

SoM do you know what the term phonological development means? You're assuming that two words that seem similar to you 1) have the same ph.d. 2)are pronounced in the same way 3)belong in the same era(which they obviously don't as I explained above) etc. You'd be making the same mistake with the word "name" that is the same in English and Zezaki.

ps. gisht never meant hand
ps2. don't use google translate

[Soldier of Macedon]

I used google translate as I didn't have any Albanian dictionaries near me at the time. For the word 'hand' it listed 'gisht' lower on the list, which suggest that in some context it can also be used to refer to a 'hand'. Is this incorrect? If so, go and advise your kinsmen at google translate who provided the translation. I hardly need your advice on the basic rules of linguistics, offer it to someone who wants to go backward in your direction. Furthermore, you don't need to waste my time with your elementary understanding of how cognates work. If you wanted to reply with something clever, you should have shown me which other languages aside from Albanian and Iranian use the word 'gisht' for a 'finger'. Can you manage that?

[Droog]

On the link below there is a comparison table of Iranian languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

I notice that the word gisht for 'finger' in Albanian is identical to that in Zazaki, which is a dialect of Kurdish. In Albanian, this word can also mean 'hand', and the word for 'hand' in Zazaki is dast. Both words in Zazaki likely come from the same root.

This is only one example, but I am sure that more can be found. Of course, given the major changes that Albanian has underwent since its 'proto' stage, the number of correspondences will be limited - however, if they can be found in those words considered unique in Albanian, then it strengthens the argument for a connection between Albanian and Iranian languages.

a)You have mixed up even the basic rules of linguistics
b)gisht doesn't mean hand
c)it's modern form is gisht, but its medieval one is glisht
d)read the works of real linguists

http://books.google.com/books?id=xZftQtCaYE0C&pg=PA178&dq=glisht&hl=en&ei=a3LCTdfyO4SDOqK6qJ0I&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=glisht&f=false

e)Although there aren't congates of course Iranian languages are related to Albanian as they are IE. Zazaki also uses the word "name" for name as English and that means nothing else other than this: Zazaki and English are both IE languages whose word *h1nomn̥ underwent the same development.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is something from wikipedia about the Principality of Arbanon:

n the beginning the name Arbanon was applied to a region in the mountainous area to the west of Lake Ochrida and the upper valley of the river Shkumbin in 11th century AD. There are very few sources about the creation of the principality with this name. In 1166 in a ceremony held in Kotor, an Andrea prior Arbanensis is mentioned among the participants accompanied by Lazarus Episcopis Arbanensis. A year later in 1167, Pope Alexander III, in a letter directed to Lazarus, congratulates him for returning his bishopric to Catholic faith and invites him to acknowledge the archbishop of Ragusa as his superior. After some resistance from local officials, the bishopric of Albania was put under the direct dependence of the Pope, as documented in a Papal letter dated in 1188 . We know very little about Progon who was the first Albanian ruler of the Principality of Arbėr in the 12th century. He gained the possessions of Kruja fortress and the lands surrounding it between 1190 and 1198 and had the title of archon (mentioned in the Gėziq inscription). After the castle of Kruja became his possession, Progon proclaimed himself a Prince in 1190. He was succeeded by his son Gjin who later was succeeded by Dhimitėr Progoni.

Epirot, what can you tell us about this? Information on the internet seems to be extremely scarce, with the main source being the below (which itself doesn't go into too much detail):

http://books.google.com/books?id=bcl...page&q&f=false

The New Cambridge Medieval History: c. 1198-c. 1300, page 786: " little arbanon, shut away in the hinterland, with its main political center in Kruja, opted for a continuing attachment to the Orthodox tradition and for subjection to Epiros, as well as alliance to Serbia... "

Here is something else with regard to the name 'Arbanon':

The name may be derived from the Illyrian tribe of the Albani recorded by Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria who drafted a map in 150 AD that shows the city of Albanopolis (located northeast of Durrės).

The name may have a continuation in the name of a medieval settlement called Albanon and Arbanon, although it is not certain this was the same place. In his History written in 1079–1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was the first to refer to Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the Duke of Dyrrachium. During the Middle Ages, the Albanians called their country Arbėr or Arbėn and referred to themselves as Arbėresh or Arbnesh.

As early as the 16th century the placename Shqipėria and the ethnic demonym Shqiptarė gradually replaced Arbėria and Arbėresh. While the two terms are popularly interpreted as "Land of the Eagles" and "Children of the Eagles", they derive from the adverb shqip, which means "understanding each-other".

Under the Ottoman Empire Albania was referred to officially as Arnavutluk and its inhabitants as Arnauts. The word is considered to be a metathesis from the word Arvanite, which was the Medieval Greek name for the Albanians.

Do you have any information on Michael Attaliates? He apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042. I have seen this repeated on the internet, but never confirmed with a source.

[Soldier of Macedon]

On the link below there is a comparison table of Iranian languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

I notice that the word gisht for 'finger' in Albanian is identical to that in Zazaki, which is a dialect of Kurdish. In Albanian, this word can also mean 'hand', and the word for 'hand' in Zazaki is dast. Both words in Zazaki likely come from the same root.

This is only one example, but I am sure that more can be found. Of course, given the major changes that Albanian has underwent since its 'proto' stage, the number of correspondences will be limited - however, if they can be found in those words considered unique in Albanian, then it strengthens the argument for a connection between Albanian and Iranian languages.

[Soldier of Macedon]

According to this map, Thracian reaches up to the Baltic shores!!!

Indeed it does, and just looking at their living space indicates clearly that most of it is inhabited by Balto-Slavic peoples today.

They might have been the inter-mediators of Thracian words to proto-Slavs...

The Scythians weren't always a homogenous group, and Balto-Slavic-speakers would have featured heavily among them. There is no chance of 'inter-mediators' between Balto-Slavic and Thracian because the lexical correspondences, sound changes, etc are just too close to be borrowings from one to another. There is only one way to explain it, and that is pre-existing commonalities stemming from a single mother-tongue. That is why people from Macedonia, to Slovenia, to Poland, to Russia and to the Baltic states use a word akin to Illyrian 'osseria' for a lake.

[Soldier of Macedon]

In the linguistic circles, the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic group is widely accepted........

No 'linguistic circles' have produced any convincing arguments in favour of Albanian being descended from Illyrian (or Thracian, for that matter). And if there was anything, you would have already posted it on this forum by now (given the previous discussions). The connection you speak of is basically limited to a handful of words, and for each correspondence that Albanian has with either Illyrian or Thracian, there are several more in Balto-Slavic.

I really do not know much things about Balto-Slavic lexical similarities with Thraco-Illyrian, but I can say that Albanian in geograhical terms is emerged in a zone, where initially lived Illyrian and Thracian tribes, so it is more representative of them than Balto-Slavic group languages.

That 'zone' must be Dardania (Kosovo), where Thracian and Illyrian tribes meet, but this 'emergence' you're referring to is questionable in terms of location. Nevertheless, even if that notion is entertained, it is only one zone. Balto-Slavic-speaking peoples live in the overwhelming majority of the territory (both south and north of the Danube) where Illyrians and Thracians lived. If anybody is representative on geographical grounds, it is them, and not the Albanians.

See this...

Not really much to see. For each of the Thracian words cited in that quote which may have an Albanian connection, there is a Balto-Slavic equivalent.

The common words that exists both in Albanian and Rumanian are thought to be inherited from Dacian.

That 'list' is speculative as there is nothing to link those words (or at least not most of them) to Dacian aside from historical revisionism - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but without further corroboration it means very little. Furthermore, several of those words appear to have cognates in Latin.

It would be better to re-read your quoted extract because there is no mention that these Albanians were settled in Walachia from Turks. The Wallachian royal authorities probably voluntarily accepeted this wave of Albanian orthodox emigrants.

Christian Albanians (like their Macedonian, Serbian, Bosnian, etc neighbours) did settled in Hapsburg lands to escape the Ottomans. But their numbers pale in comparison to their Islamic kinsmen who spread out across the Ottoman Empire. Either way, there is nothing to suggest an Albanian (Christian or Muslim) connection to Dacia prior to the 16th century - it all appears to have taken place during the Ottoman period.

In a certain degree yes but these linguistic commonalities obviosuly start in an earlier time, at least from Roman period.

I don't see anything 'obvious' about it. You haven't shown me anything that suggests an Albanian relationship with Romanian prior to the Ottoman Empire.

I find very siginificative the following quote of Scanderbeg: "If our chronicles do not lie, we call ourselves as Epirotes".

Where is that quote cited? I can't seem to find a source for it on the internet.