Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

[Risto the Great]

My goodness. What interesting observations. Thanks Napoleon and SoM

[Soldier of Macedon]

Now i see why greece wants to claim our Macedonian as their history....their history are a bunch of mountain goats with nothing!

Greece's history is more than just a bunch of mountain goats, try and apply some balance in your arguments.

[Makedonetz]

my apologies SoM i forgot the Minotaur and Pan, Poseidon, Asiris, Hera, Hestia, Themis, Dioscuri

[Onur]

Below is a picture of a typical Khalaj Turk peasant from northern Iran.

Napoleon, your avatar is so cool. Siamese with a fez


Btw, thnx for msg cuz i learned another Turkic people cuz i didn't even hear these Khalaj people b4. Turks are too many and they are everywhere even i cant keep up with all of em!!!

I checked from the internet and apparently these people are not Azeri Turks even tough they live close to them in northern Iran, close to Turkish border. They are similar with yoruk people in Balkans, the semi-nomadic ones gone to the Balkans in very early stages, like 14-15th century. They probably remained there just b4 today`s border between Iran and Turkey has been drawn. They are alevi-bektashi like yoruks and probably the last nomadic people who only settled after 19th century and apparently they are speaking a very archaic dialect of Turkish according to a research. So, the ones who migrated in to the Balkans from Anatolia at very early times was the cousins of these Khalaj people in northern Iran. This also supports your "hat" theory. Ofc the other cousins of these people who remained in Anatolia already lost their unique dialect among other Turks with common dialect in Turkey.

I found this article written by an Iranian guy;

The oldest Turkic language is the Khalaj language which is spoken by people of Khalajestan in the west-central part of Iran from the ancient times, one of reasons can be some features such as preservation of word-initial Proto-Turkic *h, and lack of the sound change *d > y which has led to other Turkic languages. An example of these archaisms is present in the word hadaq ("foot"), which has preserved the initial *h and medial *d. The equivalent form in nearby Oghuz dialects is ayaq.

They can be easily distinguished from other people of this region because of their white skins

[Makedonetz]

thats interesting blue eyes and fair skin tone.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Indeed, it does seem that the Turkic languages are found in several places across Asia. Very interesting, thanks Onur.

[Onur]

thats interesting blue eyes and fair skin tone.

Nah, blue eye is rare among Turks but green and hazel is quite common for some reason. I think i heard that green eye is most common in 1-2 Balkan countries and Turkey in the world.

Iranian guy probably meant that they are whiter than the Iranians around there. Well, it`s obvious that Turks looks whiter than Iranians.

[Napoleon]

I think the important thing about this hat issue is that its used by Albanian propagandists as an example of 'continuity' between the ancient Illyrians and todays modern Albanians. If anything, it indicates the complete opposite.

Napoleon, your avatar is so cool. Siamese with a fez - Onur

Thanks...I saw the photo and I just couldn't resist it, it had to by my new avatar. BTW Onur, have you travelled much around Turkey? Its one place I've got on my most wanted to do list, especially the eastern part etc. Have you been to Nemrut Dagh, the place seems fascinating.

[Makedonetz]

Onur i must say turkish women are georgeous! i dated one in highschool and her eyes were mesmerizing and with the way she moved her hips dancing wow!

Must be the ocean i hear you guys have some nice waters the women must get those green eyes from drinking the water

[Onur]

I think the important thing about this hat issue is that its used by Albanian propagandists as an example of 'continuity' between the ancient Illyrians and todays modern Albanians. If anything, it indicates the complete opposite.

I am really sick of this antiquity madness. Ofc Greeks are champions on that but Albanians are not far behind.

BTW Onur, have you travelled much around Turkey? Its one place I've got on my most wanted to do list, especially the eastern part etc. Have you been to Nemrut Dagh, the place seems fascinating.

I know Aegean, mediterranean and central Anatolia but I`ve never been to eastern part. Turkey got lots of fascinating places and it really takes time and effort to see them all. Nemrut daghi is one of them. I`d really like to see it too and ofc i`ll go there sooner or later.

People says that the top of Nemrut mountain has the best sunset view in the world and it`s really a mysterious experience with all that megalith statues all around you. Nemrut is yet another example of cultural exchange and mutual respect between east and west. There are statues of both ancient Greek, Armenian and Persian gods of pre-christianity era. After Armenians became christians, they smashed some of them and broke their heads, probably in 3rd century AD or something. Statues are laying around and stays damaged on top of the mountain atm.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Wikipedia and other dubious sources even go as far as stating the the Qeleshe originates from the ancient Illyrians.

Some archaeological finds do show that the Illyrians wore head caps, and because of this John Wilkes does suggest a connection to the Albanian skull-cap. However, he also suggests a connection to another Illyrian cap made of conical fur or leather that resembled those worn by Macedonian, Bulgarian, Serbian, etc peasants and shepherds. The Serbs (and Wilkes) call it a šubara. I would say, based on the assertion that the Albanians are not in fact descended from the Illyrians in any significant degree, that it is more probable they brought the skull-cap with them to the Balkans.

[Epirot]

But...somebody forgot to tell all these propagandists that the Qeleshe is also a traditional hat of the various peoples of the Caucaus mountain region.

I highly doubt that traditional skull cap of Albanians is similar with traditional cap of Caucasus (Albania, Armenia or Georgia). Your image shows a black cap that has nothing in common with Albanian one except the form. Btw, we do not know how it is produced...from what materials?

Above is an example of a 'Qeleshe', also referred as being a 'traditional' Albanian hat. Wikipedia and other dubious sources even go as far as stating the the Qeleshe originates from the ancient Illyrians.

I don't think that many sources that point out the resemblances between Illyrian and Albanian cap are dubious. Many archeological excavations have provided that Southern Illyrians wore a cap that is identical with Albanian one.

[Epirot]

The word 'qeleshe' in Albanian is pronounced 'cheleshe' - very similar to the Macedonian (and Slavic) word for 'forehead', which is 'chelo'. The Albanian word for 'forehead' is 'balle'. Makes you wonder, doesn't it......

I would say that even in Albanian 'qele' or 'çele' means 'forehead'. It's very likely that 'Qeleshe' consists of two words: 'qele' (='forehead') + 'lesh' (='wool') perhaps an implicit reference to the material of this skull cap.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, it's a loanword from Macedonian or Serbian, you already have a word for a 'forehead' which is 'balle'.

Many archeological excavations have provided that Southern Illyrians wore a cap that is identical with Albanian one.

John Wilkes states the following on page 229:

Among a variety of close-fitting caps the familiar Balkan skull-cap (Albanian qeleshe) appears on a relief in Zenica.

Zenica is in Bosnia, not quite in the south of Illyria. Would you care to show us these identical examples?

[Epirot]

Epirot, it's a loanword from Macedonian or Serbian, you already have a word for a 'forehead' which is 'balle'.

Not sure if this word is a loanword from Macedonian since we haven't enough evidences in which language is attested this word firstly.

I checked up in my dictionary for the exact meanings of 'Qeleshe' and it wrote that 'Qel' is not limited to denote only 'forehead' but even the upper part of head. For example, 'Qel' in Albanian means also 'bald-headed' which corresponds roughly with the part of head covered by 'Plis'.

John Wilkes states the following on page 229:

Zenica is in Bosnia, not quite in the south of Illyria. Would you care to show us these identical examples?

Actually I cannot bring any direct image of Illyrian hat discovered on archeological places of Illyrians because I have not the book of Alexander Stipcevic (I gave it to a mate of mine). But as far as I know, Illyrian cap did not differ much from Roman ones.





While I was searching for the origin of Albanian cap, I found also this one that may bring some more light on the question:

Latins called it ; 'Pileus Libertatis', or 'Cap of Liberty (Freedom)'. It was a symbol of freedom for the Romans (1). It is depicted on a coin of Brutus, struck in Macedonia, after the assasination of Julius Cesar (2), as well as on a number of other Roman coins struck under various Imperators, to name Caligula (3). In eighteenth century 'Plisi i Lirise' was also used as an American national symbol of freedom, and depicted on a number of American coins, too (4).
However, considering that Etruscans were not a Latin people, the origin of the cap must be sought elsewhere. It must be noted that 'Pileus Libertatis' is also known by the name 'Phrygian Cap' (5). Phrygia was an ancient kingdom situated in what is today Western Turkey, with the ancient Troy being a city of Phrygia. Likewise the majority of historians believe that Etruscans too originated in Western Turkey, and were often called by ancient historians Pelasgian !!!!!
Today, 'Pileus Liberatis' or 'Phrygian Cap' survives in the culture of the Albanians, still being worn by these people, as a national cap.



Ref:

1.http://www.lyberty.com/dict/Libertas.htm

2.http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_...us_pileus2.jpg

3.http://www.waycoolcoins.com/letterc/caligquad.jpg

4.http://www.usmint.gov/historianscorn...lf1935_obv.jpg
(http://www.exonumia.com/tenup/ten0018a.jpg

5.http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Phrygian+cap