Origins of Albanian language and ethnos

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  • Epirot
    One thing that has struck me so far is the evolution of opinion about the ancestry of the Albanians. If they are about to create a kind of federation between Greece and Albania, then Albanians are nothing else but seeds of Pelasgians. According to this view, both Greeks and Albanians trace their origin back to a common predecessor. When it became profusely clear that Albanians were hesitant to accept any kind of federation, Greek historians suddenly switched their opinions. Now Albanians had nothing Hellenic, furthermore they might have come from elsewhere. Knowing that no evidence was found to back up such claims, they probably opt for the Dacian ancestry of the Albanians. Digging in dumpsters of Romanian and Serbian school, Dacian outlandish hypothesis fits perfectly to their imagination that Albanians are nothing else but migrants in the Hellenic soil. It would be to time consuming to bother with such groundless hypothesis. What matters the most is that no scholar has yet endorsed that hypothesis, which lacks of any historical support.

    A further factor is that there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia (and there is not any vestige of their presence in that land), while there are many documents proving that the Vlach people lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia!‒ and as a matter of fact, there are still historic Romanian communities (Aromanians) living there.
    Here I shall display the opinion of 'Greeks' whether Albanians were Dacians

    One of the most striking evidences is to be found at the Mazaris's book "The Journey to Hades" (1414/15), where he stated: "Ιλλύριοι" - ως 'Αλβανοί':

    «Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

    Ephraemius (Byzantine chronicler - 14th cent.)

    χρατιΐ Θισσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
    Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
    αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιάάμνω
    Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς(1)
    ευρύ δέ οι τι &ησι μάλλον το χλέος
    η κατά Πέτρου Λατίνου λαμπρά νίχη
    γαμβρός γαρ ούτος είς άδελψην τνγχάνων
    Έρρή Βαλδουίνου τι των βασιλέων
    προς πάπα χρισ&εϊς άς χρατάρχψι Λατίνων
    Έρρή θανόντος είς Βνζαντος εστάλη
    εις Έπιδαμνίων δ χατάρας πόλιν
    δι Αλβανών έσπευδε την Κωνσταντίνου(2)
    μετά στρατιάς χαταλαβεϊν ευόπλου
    άλλα προφθ άσας Θεόδωρος γεννάδας
    τοϋτον τροπονται χαί νιχα κατά κράτος
    Has any Greek ever tried to comprehend why no account exist referring to the Albanians as Dacians? I am also thrilled to know why the Medieval Albanians had no memory of their supposed Dacian origin? How come they had no memory of Duras, Decebalus and Burebista? Instead they cherished a lot of traditions linking themselves with Pyrrhus...:

    Οι Αλβανοί σε μεγάλο βαθμό κατάγονται από τους αρχαίους Ηπειρώτες. Αξιοσημείωτο είναι ότι στις παραδόσεις των Αλβανών δεν υπάρχουν αναφορές για καταγωγή τους από τους Ιλλυριούς αλλά από τους Ηπειρώτες. Χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η απάντηση του Αλβανού ήρωα Σκεντέρμπεη σε έναν πρίγκιπα του Τάραντα που ειρωνευόταν τους Αλβανούς και δεν τους είχε ικανούς να αντισταθούν στους Τούρκους: ‘’Δεν τους ξέρεις καλά τους Αρβανίτες μου…Οι πρόγονοί μας ήταν Ηπειρώτες, από τους οποίους βγήκε εκείνος ο Πύρρος, στου οποίου την ορμή μόλις που μπόρεσαν να αντισταθούν οι Ρωμαίοι.
    Kōnstantinos Paparrēgopoulos: Άλλ' οί Αλβανοί δεν δύνανται ακριβώς ειπείν νά λογισΟώσιν ώς φυλη άλλοτρία της ελληνικής. Οί Αλβανοί εΐναι απόγονοι τών αρχαίων Ιλλυριών, οΐ- τινες πολλην έχοντες ανέκαθεν την οικειότητα προς τούς κατοίκους τών μεσημβρινωτέρων χωρών (1877:386)
    Paparrēgopoulos points that Albanians are not alien to the Greeks. According to him, Albanians are the descendants of ancient Illyrians.

    Kōstas Eleutheroudakē: Αλβανοί, απόγονοι των αρχαίων Ιλλυριών (197?: 75)
    If a century ago you unhesitatingly accepted our being as Epirotes, why is so fucking difficult to accept it right now?

    Pandōra: syngramma periodikon, Volume 10: Δέν είναι λοιπόν παράδοξον, δτι ο'ι Αλβανοί έπωνομάσθησαν -κιπετάροι από τοϋ Σκίπιε ώς δπαδοί η1 απόγονοι τοΰ Πύρρου τοΰ έπονομασθέντος Αετοΰ = Σκίπιε (1860: 518)
    To our southern neighbours, history goes hand-in-hand with the geopolitics. While Athens still claims parts of southern Albania, Greek historians are pretty cautious to restrict Hellenism within Tosks but not to the Ghegs:

    Dēmētrios Euangelidēs: "Ισως μάλιστα οί Τόσκηδες να είναι οί αρχαίοι Ηπειρώτες κάτοικοι πού ανακατεύτηκαν με τούς Ιλλυριούς στα βόρεια αύτα σύνορα της Ηπείρου. (1962:26)
    Any idea why?
    Last edited by Epirot; 01-28-2013, 01:41 PM.

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  • George S.
    One thing's clear the albanian claims that they are related to the illyrians doesn't carry much weight as on one of the threads it was pointed out the serbs or croats might be the remnants of the illyrians.As for their language it resembles something like italian than illyrian.The people inhabiting albania today probably migrated in the 6 or 7th century during the so called slavic invasions.So it's not odd to say there is slavic in them albanians.
    Last edited by George S.; 01-23-2013, 12:24 AM.

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Originally posted by momce View Post
    I guess it turns on which language is closest to proto-indoeuropean and/or proto-Balkan...?
    Both are closer to Balto-Slavic than they are to Albanian.

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  • momce
    Interesting. I guess it turns on which language is closest to proto-indoeuropean and/or proto-Balkan...?

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  • Nexus
    From a post of TrueMacedonian :

    THE ALBANIAN RACISM TOWARDS THE NEIGHBOURS IS BASED ON HISTORICAL FALSIFICATIONS VD: - You are regarded as a unique, Albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this. Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former


    VD: - You are regarded as a unique, Albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this.

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former Yugoslavia, I was sentenced two years strict imprisonment, allegedly for propaganda against the socialism and the “brotherhood and unity”. After I served the punishment to the last day in the jail Idrizovo, wishing to escape to the Soviet Union I got stuck in Albania with which the USSR exactly those days severed its diplomatic relations. After the ten-year internment, I was arrested by the Albanian authorities and sentenced 43 years of a most monstrous imprisonment, again allegedly for antigovernment propaganda, in possession of some revolver without license, preparing to escape and for insulting the investigator. Thus, in total, I am sentenced 45 years, of which 37 for antigovernment propaganda, with which I think that I am the most heavily sentenced political prisoner on the Balkan and maybe I am a unique world record holder. Actually, if it wasn’t for the (political) changes in Albania I would probably have still been in jail today. To this sentence needs to be added the severed marriage in Yugoslavia, in which fortunately I didn’t have any children and also the second marriage, in Albania, in which I had two children. During the whole time of my incarceration, not only that I wasn’t allowed to see my children, but I didn’t even know if they were alive. No one was allowed to visit me, or to give me a piece of bread. Not even the other prisoners. Those who did that were punished and the poet Gani Shkudra, who came to see me, not only that they didn’t allow him to see me, but in front of the jail, on the spot, they arrested him and sentenced him with 10 years imprisonment, allegedly for political propaganda. The only transgression attributed to him in the accusation is recorded as: “he had gone to the jail Burel to see the public enemy Kaplan Resuli and brought him bread”. While I was languishing in the infamous jail Burel, ten times they skinned me alive, literally, wanting from me to abandon my Yugoslavian (Montenegrin) citizenship, the Yugoslavian (Montenegrin) nationality, my ideals, even my children. They were forcing me to declare myself an Albanian, not only as citizen, but also in nationality (ethnicity). Several times, they attempted to liquidate me, even after I was released from jail; three times they have attempted to assassinate me – twice in Tirana and once in Geneva. The Albanians themselves, not only my friends, but also even the others who were antagonistic towards me, while I was in my jail cells, pronounced me an Albanian Mandela. Even my most open adversary, the Albanian writer Ismail Kadare, those days, the beginning of the nineties, in his attempts to befriend the European circles and Amnesty International who were involved in my freeing, did not shirk from naming me a martyr and a hero of Albania.

    VD: - Before we turn towards that period and to Your specific relationship with the most famous, but undoubtedly the most controversial person of the Albanian academy, as well, Ismail Kadare, lets return to the most important phases of your creative activities which led to Your wider literary and scientific affirmation?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In Dubrovnik in 1952, I published the poem “Bojana” in which I openly named Yugoslavia and Albania, Golgotha, in which the people struggle and suffer. I was instantly called on the phone by my “countryman” Milovan Gjilas who then threatened me that he will squeeze my head so hard that instead of singing I would begin to wail. And it turned out thus. I hear in Yugoslavia he is regarded as the No.1 dissident. If truly there is no other person, then I know that I was that at least a little bit before him.

    VD: - Your first jail sentence, unfortunately, occurred to You in Macedonia, where for some time in that period You worked as an educator?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Yes, I was a tutor in Tetovo when they arrested me. As it can be seen from the charges, in Macedonia I had done nothing wrong. I was accused that, allegedly, I had been involved in an antigovernment propaganda in Montenegro. And because I was and am a Montenegrin citizen, the court proceedings should have been there, in my birth town of Ulcinj. The reason for my prosecution in Tetovo was that there I didn’t have any relatives and UDBa (Yugoslavian state security), which knew that I am absolutely innocent, was afraid that my prosecution among my Ulcinj people could provoke some unwanted problems. For that reason, it ordered my prosecution in Tetovo, behind closed doors. Although I am not from Tetovo, the people of this town, especially my students knew me well, as a professor and as a writer. Along the streets of the town from the court to the jail I was greeted with an open support from many of them and most likely for many of them it will be interesting to know that the key UDBa witness against me was then their collaborator, now allegedly a big fighter for the Albanian cause, Adem Demaçi. The state prosecutor in his concluding talk, accusing me as “agens spiritus” of the Yugoslavian youth against the regime and seeking to be charged as such, stated that I had been and hoped that I will continue to be in future, as well, a “constructive citizen” of Yugoslavia. It is interesting that Fatos Nano (Albanian socialist premier) after my release from jail, here in Geneva described me as a “constructive citizen” of Albania, asking me to return there, in Tirana.

    VD: - Your first more significant life’s disappointment, You said, implanted in You the idea to leave for the Soviet Union, but fate wanted again to play with you in a brutal fashion and “retain” You many years in the Albanian jail Burel.

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - True, that was some time after my completion of the jail sentence in Idrizovo. Burel was not a jail, but a place of horror. While in Idrizovo they would say “You are not here for us to fatten you up, but to count your bones” in Burel it was: “This place is called Burel, where one can get in, but can not get out”.

    VD: - The numerous works which You wrote here most likely helped You to strengthen your spirit and, eventually, to survive. Actually, exactly here is created your most famous work, the novel “Treason”?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - From approximately 200,000 pages written during those thirty years, half of them I succeeded in transferring out of jail and to have them here, in Geneva. The authorities took the other part from me and I have no idea what has happened with them. The novel “Treason”, otherwise, the Albanians themselves proclaimed it as a masterpiece of the Albanian literature. One of the most eminent Albanian critics, Prof. Tair Zavallani, even described it as the only worthy work published in Albania after World War II. That type of reception for the novel in Albania and amongst the Albanian Diaspora perturbed Enver Hoxha who was attempting to establish his likeminded relative Ismail Kadare as the greatest Albanian literary. That is why all of a sudden they “discovered” that I had not written the novel, attempting even to physically eliminate me, but it had been the work of Adem Demaçi (Demachi), for whom they were hoping that, in the meantime, he would perish in the Yugoslavian jails. Since Demaçi got out of jail alive and I also survived, now, via the printed media, they have widened a campaign against me, unseen in the history of mankind, which, imagine, the novel had been written for me by UDBa, in order to establish myself with it in Albania and thus usurp the government from Enver.

    V.D. - Thus far twice, in similar context, You mentioned Kadare and I would like to remind You of 1991 when Amnesty International, as well, engages in the requests for Your release from jail and, absurdly, the one who attempted to block it was none other, but Kadare. How, actually, could that be explained?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Kadare is catapulted in the West by Ramiz Alia and the widow of Enver Hoxha, with a well planned mission. At that time, it was only one of his missions – to diminish my credibility amongst the Albanian public and the Diaspora, fearing that I may unmask them, spoiling their future plans. For that reason, not only in private, as was the case with Adem Demaçi, but also publicly, at meetings and via the printed media he barked against me and would accuse me, as they were instructing him from Tirana. Kadare and Demaçi are the main conspirators in of the most monstrous demonstrations in the history of mankind, when they stirred the Albanian professors and students at Prishtina university to demonstrate in February 1991 against my release from jail.

    VD: - On the subject “Kadare”, You have up till now written much, to which special attention in the Albanian public, but also in the European community have attracted Your books “The true face of Ismail Kadare” and “The lies do not alter the truth”. When, actually, began Your rivalry and what is, as You have mentioned, his well planned mission?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In these books, actually, with documents and with facts, but also with his own self confessions, I have proven that he is catapulted in the West as an agent of Sigurimi (Albanian state security), because he was that from always. As a principal ideologue of Enver, with secret interpretations on our works he was “passing judgment” for our maltreatments, internments and arrests. Actually, this was publicly stated, on Albanian Radio-Television in 1996 by the former head of Sigurimi, Zylfiar Ramizi, verifying that Kadare was in their service under the pseudonym General. He was a provocateur trained by Sigurimi to accuse anyone who, according to him, stood in his way, as he did that with me. And why? Because academic professor Dimitar Suterilli, in his principal paper which he read out at the second Congress of Albanian Writers, placed my name and novel before his. At one plenum of the Union in 1966, I openly criticised him, which enraged him, as he was not used to being criticised. Much later, after my release from jail, a major from Sigurimi involved in my arrest openly declared that, although totally innocent, they had arrested me because they had received a secret 12-page long accusation against me and my activities, exactly from Kadare. In the meantime, he totally put his pen and talent in the service of his benefactor Enver whose political speeches he was transforming into poems and novels. I don’t know if you are aware of the fact that Kadare published a complimentary poem lauding Enver’s “patriotic” dog, which somewhere at the border catches and pulls apart some unfortunate Albanian, only because the poor soul attempted to escape from Enver’s paradise. These are only a few pieces of evidence about the moral profile of the “great” literary and “certain” Nobel prize winner Ismail Kadare, whose main preoccupation today is to poison and deceive the West with the Albanian historical falsifications about the alleged famous Illyrian - Albanian past and culture, which, what absurdity, had suffered multi-centuries harm from the activities of its surrounding barbaric “slavic” peoples.

    VD: - This is, I think, an opportune moment to begin our discussion for Your third, certainly an important segment, as well, of Your writings – the scientific-research work. You have published numerous works from the sphere of the Albanian historiography and linguistics, which brought You significant prestige, scientific titles and also an honorary membership in the Albanian Science Academy. When did actually begin Your scientific interest for the Albanology?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Already in 1995 at the University of Skopje, it became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the Albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies and here, contrary to what was being said and written not only by the Albanian, but also by our, Yugoslavian scholars, contrary to what is being taught not only in the Albanian language schools (in Albania, as well as in Macedonia), but also in the schools of “south-slavic” languages, I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in Alban ology has said this to me. They continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous Pelasgoillyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the Albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the Illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the Albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor are they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the Albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and Illyrian origin. Via those lies, they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital.
    The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the Albanian pseudo science about their Illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours.

    VD: - How did the Albanian public receive Your albanological research and discoveries?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Once even Enver Hoxha was forced to admit that the Albanian science lacks scientific objectivity. The Albanian poet Mimoza Erebara in the Science Academy asked them directly what was the situation with my scientific discoveries. They had told her: “We know that very well even before Kaplan, but now is not the time for all of that to be told” Since in the publication “YLBERI” (comes out since 1993, in Geneva) and especially through my albanological collection THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ALBANIANS I demonstrated in written form my points of view, the Albanian academic Vincent Golleti, in the printed media stated: “The stances of Kaplan Burovich about the albanological problems, especially on the problem of the origin of the Albanians, need to be greeted most warmly, while the studies which he publishes in relation with those problems should be propagated throughout the whole of the scholarly world”. After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others. I can say that today appeared a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths and courageously accept the scientific truth. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage. Because, believe me, that is not easy at all, as the extreme Albanian nationalists, chauvinists and racists led by Ismail Kadare, through the most severe forms of chicanery and satanising are attempting to silence us at any cost. The mentioned Dr Adrian Qosi when he stated that the hypothesis for the Illyrian origin of the Albanians is unfounded, added: “But it is better not to talk about that because they will declare us anti Albanians”. And they did.

    VD: - Since when actually dates the oldest evidence for the existence of the Albanians and the Albanian language?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The oldest evidenced text in an Albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angelic, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engjylli. The first book in Albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in Albanian, after the proclamation of the Albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in Albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia, which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the Albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in Albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non-Albanians. Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an Albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theophanous Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the Albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the Albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the Albanian nationalists, or “Marxists Leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.

    VD: - Undeniable is the fact that in Albania the toponyms are, say, without exception “slavic”. To what is that owed?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrës). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

    VD: - In the Macedonian community, little is known that more than 90 percent of the lexical fund of the Albanian language are words taken up from other languages. You especially have analysed the subject of the “slavisms” in the Albanian language. It would be interesting some more to be said about this.

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - For the first time I graduated in Skopje, exactly with the theme “Slavisms in the Albanian language”. The second diploma, as well, at the university of Tirana, I defended with a linguistic theme. Especially in “The Dictionary of the Albanian Language in Ulcinj” I have elaborated the etymology of all words. Actually, it can be supposed that if the Turks did not come to the Balkans, the Albanian language in not more than 100-200 years would have been completely “slavicised”. The Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian languages have penetrated so much into the Albanian language that they have flooded not only the lexicon, but they have displaced its phonetics, morphology and syntax. Besides the significant cultural prestige of these languages compared to the Albanian, this is also due to the significant albanisation of not a small number of Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins, especially the ones who were previously islamised. As it is known, the Albanians have a strongly developed power of assimilation. That a good part of them by origin is Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, is witnessed by their patrons, surnames, but many of them even today speak their “slavic” language. In Albania, there are whole regions along the border, especially towards Macedonia, settled with a compact “slavic” population, which is even more numerous, lets say, than the Albanians in Macedonia.

    VD: - Lets talk a little also about the numerous ethnonyms which from the Albanian side, often baselessly, are forced as synonyms. How come so many ethnic names for the Albanians?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - That, as well, witnesses the ethno genesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern Albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi (an) s, they are a Celtic tribe, which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old Germanic Franks, deforming the old Celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name, which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the Turkish Empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as Muslims they serve under the Turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the Albanian appellative Shqiptar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in Turkish is “eagle”, while in Albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus, the Albanians of Muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the Muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not Albanian at all, but pan Islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.

    VD: - Here as well, is the known division Ghegs-Toscs from which originates the known language question which, it seems, still has not been overcome by the Albanians.

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The language question in Albania is not settled even today. Although formally (and by force) Enver Hoxha established as a common, official language the Tosc dialect (until then it was the Gheg dialect), the Ghegs have not given up. They still continue to speak and write in their dialect, although they are persecuted and maltreated because of it. When in 1965 in Albania I published the novel “Treason” in the Gheg dialect the Albanians of northern Albania openly requested the language of this book to be declared as the literary and official language of Albania. That too was one of the reasons for my satanisation, which still continues. You should know that the difference between the Tosc and the Gheg dialects is much bigger than the differences between some “slavic” languages, for example the Macedonian and the Serbian. >From another side, more Albanians, about two thirds, speak in Gheg, which is lexically richer, purer and also has much greater expressional opportunities. With the enforcement of the Tosc dialect, which was of a pure political nature (motive), a crime has been perpetrated against the Albanians and their culture.

    VD: - One of the fallacies (delusions), unfortunately, it seems somehow silently accepted even outside of Albania is the so called monolithic nature of the Albanian population in the Republic of Albania in which allegedly live 97-98% ethnic Albanians, for which You have already said something previously. What is, according to You, the reality in that respect in Albania?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roma, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non Albanian language and retains its non Albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non Albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.

    VD: - In Your research, You have also paid special attention to the ethnic expansion of the Albanians in the past 2-3 centuries towards its neighbouring (Serbian, Macedonian, Greek and others) regions, for which now, the last several decades, to begin to proclaim exactly them as their “ethnic territories” in which they allegedly lived from eternity?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - This truly is absurd and, in any case, it is good that there remain numerous proofs for their undeniable expansion, which I have integrally collected and published in my study “The origins of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece”. One needs to be objective and tell the truth, not because of the truth itself, but because it will contribute toward overcoming of the many problems on the Balkan. That the Albanians only in the past couple of centuries have expanded admitted publicly, via the printed media, the most eminent contemporary Albanian scientist, academic professor Elrem Cabej (Tsabej), who, forced by the numerous arguments, was unable, but to conclude that today’s territories on which the Albanians live are not “a zone of RESTRICTION”, but “a zone of EXPANSION”. And not only he! That also is verified in the “HISTORIA Ë SHQIPERISË” itself, compiled by the Albanian scientists themselves.

    VD: - Recently from Tirana were launched some “evidences” about an existence of 14 million Albanians. Amongst the numerous “Albanians” who had indebted the world civilisation was included, as well, Alexander of Macedonia!

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I’ve read that, as well. The Albanian academic, Prof. Dr Skender Rizaj once even in his “scientific” works stated that, also all Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosnians and Herzegovians are, in reality, “slavicised” Albanians. By that method, we should “admit” that they are not only 14, but also possibly even 140 millions. I have already published a study about the “scientific” work “The Illyrians spoke Albanian – The Albanians speak Illyrian” published by Preloc Margiljaj. I would like to present for this suitable moment only a few short quotes which can also be found in other Albanian historical-linguistic “experts”: “The Albanians are one of the oldest nations (peoples) in Europe” (page 438) “it is clear that Crete is the first fireplace of culture and civilisation in the Aegean region and in Europe. Crete from the forgotten times of the past was settled with the Pelasgian, rather the Illyrian or Albanian people, thus in Crete ruled the Albanian language, which in other words, is the starting point and the first source of the European culture and civilisation”. (page296). Starting from this, this Albanian “scientist” wants the Albanian language to be taught in all schools around the world as a compulsory language because, according to him, without knowing that language it would not be possible to comprehend the world culture(!?). In respect of Alexander of Macedonia, even Enver Hoxha has written that he is an Albanian, expressing that also in one discussion with the Indian ambassador in Tirana, as if personally he, Enver, had sent him to India, even as an ambassador to establish friendly relations between these two countries and peoples. These undoubtedly racist yearnings of the Albanians are certainly the result of their economic and cultural poverty, of their backwardness and late development in comparison with the other nations, amongst which are those of its neighbours, I would say of their frustration because of all of that.

    VD: - Do You believe, regardless, in the possibility that the young, unburdened scientists and politicians in Albania will accept the reality and they, abandoning the greater Albanian dreams, to give their own contribution towards the development in real good-neighbourly relations?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I do believe! I have already cited several names of such young scientists. I can also give you names of young politicians unburdened of the greater Albanian yearnings. But they still don’t have the power for that, except their pens and good intentions, with which they can’t act freely because the Albanian print media is strictly censured by the greater Albanians, and the streets of the cities, unfortunately, are still patrolled by gangsters who, in the service of the social-fascist band, are ready to hit anyone with a brick on the head or with a bullet in the forehead!

    VD: - For ten years, as a political emigrant, You have been living in Geneva, Switzerland. Do you have an impression that the so-called democratic Europe and the West, generally, understand our Balkan situations?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Democratic Europe, I’m afraid, at least in respect of us, does not exist at all. The antidemocratic one, on the other hand, hand never understood them, nor wants to understand our Balkan difficulties. Europe was and still is in the service of The Capital. Its “democracy” is only an _expression of that Capital. It uses our Balkan peoples and situations for penetration (expansion) and for ruling the world, for its own battle against the true, real democracy and its carriers.

    VD: - Concordant with Your rich life experience, after all that in the past period happened on the Balkan, and which, sadly, culminated with several bloody wars, are You of the opinion that all of that, simply, had to happen?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - No! Absolutely not! All of that could and can, even needs to be solved without blood. Let the Albanians prove that even Moscow is theirs, thus give them even it. But until they prove that, they should not be given even one stone from our fatherlands, not only to prevent them from desecrating it, but also in order to prevent them from smashing their own heads with it.

    VD: - To conclude, I believe it would be interesting to hear Your prediction how the things could be developing in the near future?

    Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The Americans have reached their aim – on the Balkan, they have installed their military bases. Let us hope that they will not support the terrorism and to use the Albanians as cannon fodder. And the Albanians, certainly, in the meantime will wake up and will not allow either the Americans or whoever else to use them as such. For that, understandably, with self criticism, all of us need to assist them. I hope that for this will also contribute this interview, for which I most sincerely thank you, not as a foreigner, but as your brother, because I have always thought of Skopje as my second birth town and Macedonia as my second, true fatherland. I use this opportunity to send my greetings to my school friends from the Skopje gymnasium “J. B. Tito”, also the personnel from the Macedonian embassies in Geneva and Tirana with whom I have met many times and keep wonderful memories from the discussions with them, especially with the recent (former) ambassador in Albania, Risto Nikovski. Understandably, special greetings to my friends and “comrades” from KPD “Idrizovo”.

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  • Carlin
    Although Normans have nothing in common with modern Albanians, you will see in this post how ethnic names, terms, descriptions, identities can evolve, change in meaning, or interchange and attach themselves to new ethnic groups.

    1) Evolution Of Norman Identity: 911-1154 - By Nick Webber
    A close examination, through original sources, of the Norman self-image. During the period 911-1154, a newly-constituted people came to control not only a Frankish duchy, but also the kingdoms of England and Sicily. This people, composed of Scandinavian settlers and Frankish natives, came to be known as the Normans. This book examines the growth of the concept of the Norman people (gens Normannorum), through the self-perception of group members (Normanitas or "Norman-ness") and the perceptions of "others". Using identity models which deal with the interaction of various types of communities, it examines narrative sources (both internally and externally produced) in order to establish what it meant to be a Norman, both to the Normans themselves, and to those with whom they had contact. Beyond these perceptions of self and otherness, examination focuses in particular on the role of the Norman leaders (as the embodiment of Norman identity), the effects of language, the importance of conquest and the sense of homeland, up until the significant change in rulership in both England and Sicily in 1154.

    Please go to pages 87 and 88.

    You will find the following:

    - It was the Normans who first appeared under the heading Albanoi (foreigners).
    - In Byzantine documents, the people to whom Albanoi referred were the Normans.
    - Albanoi was not purely an ethnic term, but in fact it is a common noun which corresponds to the medieval Latin albanus, meaning "aliens" or "men from a different jurisdiction".
    - According to Lucio Melazzo, when the Normans settled in southern Italy they used the name albani for a certain time to refer to themselves.

    2) Anglo-Norman Studies - By Marjorie Chibnall

    Go to Pages 244-248:

    - The "Latinoi" of whom Michael Attaleiates speaks are the old inhabitants of Italy whom Scylitzes calls "Italoi", namely the Lombards or Longobards. The Normans, the "Fraggoi" (Franks) of Scylitzes, are named "Albanoi"/"Alvanoi" by Michael Attaleiates. [So - the Lombards, a Germanic people, were being called Latins or Italians, while the Normans were called Franks or Albanians.] This term corresponds to the well-known word of medieval Latin 'albani', meaning "aliens" and denoting those who, as foreigners, were not subjects of the country in which they had settled.

    - It is highly probable that the Normans, who began to appear in the south of Italy from 1017 and obtained their first permanent possession in 1030 were considered aliens. From the facts under discussion, however, we can draw inferences of considerable interest. To begin with, the noun Albanoi, being a word of Latin origin, must have arrived in Byzantium from Southern Italy, where it undoubtedly applied to the foreigners from Normandy; otherwise Michael Attaleiates could not have applied it as a correct denomination for the Normans either in the passage mentioned above or in another where, saying that George Maniaces rose against Emperor Constantine IX Monomachos with his Byzantine and Norman soliders, he calls the former Romaioi and the latter Albanoi.

    Romaioi (Byzantines) = Romans
    Albanoi (Albanians) = Normans

    - Albanoi can have come only from a Latin albani stressed on the last syllable. Such a form uttered with a particular foreign accent can have flowed only from the mouths of people who had spoken Old French from birth and transferred the habit of stressing the last syllable of all words from their native language to any other language they had to speak.
    Last edited by Carlin; 12-08-2012, 06:09 PM.

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  • Carlin
    Mardaites/Mirdites (Albanians):

    1) "Les uns furent établis en Thrace, en Epire (où les Mirdites sont leurs descendants) et dans le Péloponèse; le plus grand nombre fut installé dans le thème cibyrrhéote..."

    2) Resettlement of Mardaites into Asia Minor and the Balkans (Justinian II's policy).

    3) M. Sathas says that they were divided into two bodies, of which one was scattered throughout Hellas, especially Epirus, where to the present day their descendants are called Mirdites, while the other division was ultimately settled in the Cibyraiot theme.

    4) "...certainly there was a coast-guard of Albanians in Cyprus under Venetian rule.."

    Sir George Francis Hill (1867-1948) was perhaps best known as a numismatist, although his scholarly interests and accomplishments included a range of time periods and subjects. A classicist by training, Hill built his career at the British Museum's department of coins and medals. In his forty-three years there he produced volumes on coins of antiquity; Greek history and art; coins, heraldry, and iconography of medieval and Renaissance Italy; and treasure troves. In 1931 Hill became the Museum's director and principal librarian, the first archaeologist to hold this post. His four-volume History of Cyprus (1940-1952) ranged from Cyprus' earliest years to the twentieth century, and became the standard text on the subject. It is a valuable resource for scholars of the country, of antiquity and of the Mediterranean world. Volume 1 describes the land of Cyprus before unravelling its history from the Stone Age to the Crusades.

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  • Carlin
    Originally posted by Nexus View Post

    I read somewhere that Albanians are Mardaites (from Asia Minor) and theses "Mardaites" were settled in the Balkans by the Roman-Byzantines.
    Any informations about this theory?
    Hi Nexus,

    Go to page 30 of this very same thread. You will find more info about Mardaites there (..although I am working on additional sources). Did you know that there were Albanians living in Cyprus during Venetian times? Also, and I may have mentioned this already, but -- A. Rambaud identified the Mardaites as the Albanian Mirdites.

    Here is another interesting quote -

    "Albanian race designates itself by two general names: the name of Mirdites, derived from Persian Mardaites (braves), now applies to the noblest part of the population, and seems like the words German, Slav, Frank, having been originally a title of honor; name Shkipetars (inhabitants of the rocks) designates the people in general."

    Revue des Deux Mondes - 1842 - tome 31. page 358.

    Unrelated, but here is something about "Bagenetia".

    The sack of Butrint, c. AD 800
    Richard Hodges, Solinda Kamani, Matthew Logue & Joanita Vroom

    Butrint, ancient Buthrotum, located 3km from the Straits of Corfu on the Vivari Channel at the south end of Lake Butrint in Albania (Figure 1), is a typical illustration of an ancient city that declined in late antiquity before experiencing a Mid Byzantine revival that endured until the later middle ages (Hodges et al. 2004). Occupying a fertile coastal niche extending 10km into a mountainous valley and with access to legendary amounts of fish in Lake Butrint, the seaport of Butrint - on a major artery through the central Mediterranean - was a weathervane of geo-political changes in the region. Recent excavations at Butrint have thrown light on a significant if previously unknown historical episode in its post-Roman history that, in turn, begs questions about the settlement history, ethnicity and geo-politics of this region in the eighth and ninth centuries AD.

    Butrint lies in a region known by the thirteenth century as Bagenetia or Vagenetia, a term that can be traced back to the Slavic tribe known as the Baiounetai (Chrysos 1997: 184-5; Soustal in Hodges et al. 2004: 20-22; Curta 2006: 103) and which survived until the sixteenth century. The so-called Partitio Romaniae, a document of 1204 describing the division of the Byzantine Empire, records the chartularaton de Bagenetia.

    Between the seventh and tenth centuries the few sources make it difficult to judge whether Butrint was in Byzantine or Slavic hands. Occasional finds of so-called Komani jewellery from the region point to contacts with post-Roman tribes from inland Albania (see Bowden 2003; Curta 2006: 103-4). However, a lead seal found in the Lower Danube region, belonging to a certain Theodorus who was the imperial spatharios and archon of Vagenetia, suggests the region and perhaps Butrint's allegiance was to Byzantium (Curta 2006: 103; see also Chrysos 1997: 184-5). In the so-called Notitia of the Iconoclasts, compiled after AD 754, Butrint - Bythipotu - is listed as the fourth and penultimate city of Old Epirus, subject to Nikopolis. In 880-884, St. Elias the Younger and his pupil Daniel were accused of being Hagarenes (foreigners) and spies, and imprisoned at Butrint (polis epineios) by a man presumed to be a Byzantine official. In 904 the relics of St. Elias, who had died in Thessalonika, were brought to Butrint to be taken from there to Calabria. Little more is known about Butrint as a town at this time. Arsenios of Corfu (876-953), who apparently visited Epirus to plead with Slav pirates, recorded that Butrint was rich in fish and oysters, with a fertile hinterland. In sum, between the seventh and ninth centuries Butrint lay in a territory controlled by a local tribe - possibly of Slavic affinity or origin - that intermittently maintained official connection with Constantinople and adhered to a Byzantine administrative ethos (Soustal in Hodges et al. 2004).

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  • Nexus
    Thanks Epirot, it's interesting.

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  • Epirot
    Originally posted by Nexus View Post
    I have a question: Could the peoples who carrying the name arnautovic, arnautov, arnautovski, arnautovska, arnautoff have an albanian descent?

    And I want to know if the peoples labelled as "Arnaut" during the Ottoman times were exclusively albanians? I read somewhere that it can also refers simply to a muslim, ottoman soldier or not.
    Because a lot of persons in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia/Montenegro even in Macedonia bear this surname, and the albanians said that they are in fact slavisised albanians, it catchs my attention.

    How the "Arnaut" during Ottoman occupation got this surname? By the turks? In which circumstances?


    EDIT: A last question, did surnames with "Arnaut" exist amongst the albanians?
    Ottomans got such a name from Greeks who used to call Albanians 'Arbanites' or 'Arvanites'. Initially, Ottomans adopted it as 'Arnavud', as can be seen in their chronicles. Later, they switched that name by formalizing as 'Arnaut'. This comes probably because they were acquainted by a similar word which existed already in Persian "Arnaut". Its original meaning was 'those who did not turn back'. probably referring to the Albanian soldiers who were hired as mercenaries of Ottomans. With the drift of time, Arnaut was closely associated with stubbornness and bravery. I don't have any clue if such an appellation was given to Slavs too. Judging from its usage, it seem that 'Arnaut' referred exclusively to the Albanians. In the folklore of Montenegrins, Serbs and Macedonians, Albanians are called constantly as 'Arnaut'. I've heard many times some cases when Serbs quarrel with one another. They call their opponent as having 'Arnaut blood'. The same goes even for Turkey...

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  • Nexus
    I have a question: Could the peoples who carrying the name arnautovic, arnautov, arnautovski, arnautovska, arnautoff have an albanian descent?

    And I want to know if the peoples labelled as "Arnaut" during the Ottoman times were exclusively albanians? I read somewhere that it can also refers simply to a muslim, ottoman soldier or not.
    Because a lot of persons in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia/Montenegro even in Macedonia bear this surname, and the albanians said that they are in fact slavisised albanians, it catchs my attention.

    How the "Arnaut" during Ottoman occupation got this surname? By the turks? In which circumstances?


    EDIT: A last question, did surnames with "Arnaut" exist amongst the albanians?
    Last edited by Nexus; 12-04-2012, 05:13 PM.

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  • Nexus
    From a post by Delodephius :

    The Position of Albanian

    The genesis of the Balkan Peoples

    VIII. Albanians and Rumanians

    Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians, although there are no other data supporting such a claim. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.

    But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.

    Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.

    1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

    2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

    3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

    4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

    5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

    6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:

    Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
    Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
    Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. luptǎ, Arum. luftǎ, Alb. luftë
    Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.

    7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazǎre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.
    I read somewhere that Albanians are Mardaites (from Asia Minor) and theses "Mardaites" were settled in the Balkans by the Roman-Byzantines.
    Any informations about this theory?
    Last edited by Nexus; 12-04-2012, 03:49 PM.

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  • Nexus
    I delete my previous message because i think that it was not very understandable. The translation with google was not very successful, so i will translate myself the parts of the text that cought my attention. Here's the original link in French :

    L'origine illyrienne de l'albanais ont été graduellement abandonnées par les linguistes et notamment les indo-européanistes modernes. Le fait que l'albanais ne peut descendre phylogénétiquement en ligne directe de l'illyrien est admis aujourd'hui par l'ensemble des linguistes aptes à se prononcer sur la question.
    The illyrian origin of the albanian language was gradually abandonned by the linguists and in particular by the modern specialists of the indo-european (languages and peoples). The fact that albanian language cannot descend phylogenetically directly of the illyrian is accepted by the whole linguists who are able to give an opinion about the question.

    Ce consensus parmi les linguistes n'est contesté aujourd'hui que par des historiens albanais.
    This consensus among the linguists is contested only by albanian historians (and by other hisorians like the pro-albanian Serge Métais).

    Les arguments favorables à l’hypothèse des historiens sont contredits par la plupart des linguistes :

    (1) les lieux albanais ayant conservé leur appellation antique ont évolué selon des lois phonétiques propres aux langues slaves; ce qui conduit à envisager une occupation slave des piémonts et des plaines avant l'arrivée des Albanais;
    (2) l'albanais a emprunté tout son vocabulaire maritime au latin et au grec; ce qui pourrait être une indication que les ancêtres des Albanais vivaient à l'intérieur des terres, les régions côtières (thème du Dyrrhacheion) restant gréco-latines ;
    (3) les emprunts les plus anciens de l'albanais aux langues romanes proviennent du diasystème roman oriental et non de l'illyro-roman (qui était la langue romane anciennement parlée en Illyrie suite à la disparition de l'illyrien); ce qui fait supposer une implantation albanaise antérieure plus orientale qu'aujourd'hui, tout au moins à la période où les Albanais sont entrés en contact avec des populations parlant une langue romane.
    The favourable arguments for the hypothesis of the historians are contraticted by the most of linguists :

    (1) The albanian places who have preserved their antic naming/designations have evolved according to phonetic laws proper to slavonic languages; it leads to envisage a slavic occupation of the piedmonts and the plains before the arrival of the albanians;
    (2) The albanian language have borrowed all his maritime vocabulary to the latin and greek languages; it might be an indication that the ancestors of the albanians lived inside the lands, the coastal regions (Dyrrhacheion Theme) stayed latin-greek (origin of the presence).
    (3) The most ancient borrowings of the albanian language to the romance languages came from the oriental/eastern romance languages (, and not from the illyrian-romance languages (which was the romance language spoken in Illyria after the disparition of the illyrian in the ancient times); it leads to suppose an anterior implantation/etablishment of the albanians more oriental than today, at least at the time when the albanians entered in contact with the populations who spoke a romance language.

    To remind you, the oriental romance languages are also know under the name of Vlach languages ...

    Le tout est indicatif d’une origine géographique albanaise à l’est de l’antique Illyrie, dans le Kosovo et la Serbie actuelle. Au-delà de ce consensus, les perspectives théoriques sont divergentes:

    (1) Les correspondances observables parmi les langues de l’ensemble thraco-illyrien s’expliquent plus facilement comme phénomènes d’emprunts et de convergence dans un contexte de contacts linguistiques, à l’image de ce qui se passe dans les Balkans de la modernité, où toutes les langues de la région convergent dans leurs structures vers un modèle typologique prédominant, le "Sprachbund des Balkans". Dans cette perspective, les langues de l'ensemble thraco-illyrien appartiennent à des branches distantes les unes des autres dont la divergence est très antérieure au développement des caractéristiques communes, celle-ci résultant d'un phénomène de convergence linguistique plutôt que d'un héritage ou d'un substrat ancien commun.
    (2) Dans la perspective où le rapprochement illyrien-messapien est hypothétique en raison de la rareté des données sur l’illyrien et où les faits du messapien sont mieux connus que ceux de l’illyrien, les faits linguistiques du messapien ne s’expliquent d’aucune façon comme proche de l’albanais.
    (3) Le messapien appartenant indubitablement au groupe centum des langues indo-européennes, une parenté avec l’albanais, langue satem, doit être exclue.
    (4) Les faits linguistiques de l’albanais s’expliquent mieux dans un ensemble phylogénétique daco-thrace (groupe satem de l’ensemble thraco-illyrien).
    The whole is indicative of a geographical origin of the albanians in the east of the antic Illyria, in the actual Kosovo and Serbia. Beyond this consensus, the theorical perspectives are divergent :

    (1) The observable correspondances amongst the languages of the Thracian-Illyrian family are easily explained by a phenomenom of borrowing and of convergence in the context of linguistic contacts, like what is happening in the modern Balkans, where all the languages of the region converge in their structures on a predominant typological model, the "Sprachbund" of the Balkans. In this perspective, the languages of the Thracian-Illyrian family belonged to distinct branches, wich the divergence is anterior of the development of common characteristics. This divergence was resulted by a phenomenom of linguistic convergences rather than an heritage or a ancient common substrat.
    (2) In the perspective of an illyrian-messapian rapprochement is hypothetical because of the rarity of data about the illyrian and where the facts about the messapian are better well-know than the facts of the illyrian, the linguistic facts of messapian cannot be explained in no way at all like close to the albanian language.
    (3) The messapian belongs indisputably to the centum group of the indo-european languages. A relationship with the albanian, wich belongs to the satem group, must be excluded.
    (4) The linguistic facts of the albanian can be explained better in an daco-thracian phylogenetical ensemble (satem group of the thracian-illyrian).

    En conclusion, s'il y a consensus, c'est pour rejeter tout lien de l’albanais avec le messapien et l'illyrien; un courant majoritaire pour laisser la position de l’albanais dans l’ensemble thraco-illyrien indéterminée, et un courant minoritaire pour rattacher l’albanais au groupe daco-thrace des langues thraco-illyriennes.
    In conclusion if there is a consensus, it's for rejecting any links of the albanian languages with the messapian and illyrian; a majority trend for leaving the albanian in the thracian-illyrian group in a undetermined place, and a minority trend to attach the albanian in the daco-thracian group of the thracian-illyrian family (like the conclusion of Vladimir Georgiev).

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  • Chiche
    Not without trying, I can not find any Kings or remnants of a "SLAVIC" Nation- I hate this term as much as the fyrom label. These Mythical people came from the Imaginations of those who have no facts to prove an Idea.

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  • George S.
    Slav is a nother label they put on people.Supposedly slavs were from the caspian area towards russia.Different kinds of slavs were around.Originally all people came from mesopatamia.Some were from the sumerians.The point is the greeks,albanians are all slavs & just as much slav influence in macedonia.But the macedonians still exist & they are still macedonian.

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