Greece, History, Truth

[Soldier of Macedon]

Excellent source TM.

[TrueMacedonian]

page 115

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have a book that provides examples of when the Turks provided different types of assistance to vlach bands, Greek bands, Macedonians etc.

It's called Ethnic Rivalry in Macedonia, pretty interesting, also interesting to note that in the book it also mentions how Greek bands also were against Vlach bands.

Sounds very interesting mate, can you scan and post the relevant pages, it would be beneficial to have some further detail recorded with regard to this matter.

[Pelister]

“But a history that does not change, that reduces all the complexities of social, political, and cultural change, to a single, eternal moment, isn’t history at all.”

No, its not history and its not a freak of nature, its a mad scientific social and cultural experiment on a mass scale. Erasing and/or altering the last 1000 years or so, then molding that with ones, one way interpretations of ancient history and bringing it forward with all its complexities into the modern day. Isn’t history.

However acknowledging the complexities of human history and accepting social, political and cultural changes that have transpired (or least known to have transpired) throughout mankinds history, that is at least to me history and one that can't or at least shouldn't be ignored.



Good post TM

Its taking some abstract ideal - for instance, a highly sanitised European interpretation of the ancient Greeks and their culture - and projecting it onto the town of Athens and immediate surroundings in 1830. It constructed this 'New Greek' through the institutions of the nation state, and of course condemning everything else for it.

[VMRO]

That's true VMRO, at least to some degree, but I am pretty certain that during Macedonia's struggle for freedom the Turks were, aside from the odd exception, as a rule, on the side of the Patriarchists.

I have a book that provides examples of when the Turks provided different types of assistance to vlach bands, Greek bands, Macedonians etc.

It's called Ethnic Rivalry in Macedonia, pretty interesting, also interesting to note that in the book it also mentions how Greek bands also were against Vlach bands.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That's true VMRO, at least to some degree, but I am pretty certain that during Macedonia's struggle for freedom the Turks were, aside from the odd exception, as a rule, on the side of the Patriarchists.

[VMRO]

Thanks Onur.

It is a shame though, that the Ottomans eventually sided with the Greek bands against the Macedonian revolutionaries. I guess both had different motives, but the aim was the same, to stop the Macedonian movement for liberation.

The Ottomans played all bands, when one group became too strong, the ottomans would help out the other band, whether it be Greek, Macedonian or Vlach band, they Ottomans viewed this as a signal to the West that the people in Macedonia are not fit to govern themselves in a separate state.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Coastal, read the first post, it will help you with clearing up your misconceptions about the modern Greeks.

[TrueMacedonian]

Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500-1250 By Florin Curta

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks Onur.

It is a shame though, that the Ottomans eventually sided with the Greek bands against the Macedonian revolutionaries. I guess both had different motives, but the aim was the same, to stop the Macedonian movement for liberation.

[Onur]

Guys, i found a PDF document in Turkish state archives web site. It includes a total of 153 reported incidents done by Greeks in Macedonia between the years 1850 to 1913.

All of them are from Ottoman Empire archives. I checked some of them. It includes all kinds of oppression, beatings, religious conversion by force, rape and murders on Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Pomaks, Jews, Albanians etc. and protestant Greek community.

It seems like they tried to convert Macedonians by using methods of terrorism, to speak Greek language, be the member of Greek orthodox patriarch and/or Greeks. There are testimonies and statements of the victims and detailed reports.

You can even write a book with this document because it contains evidences with witness statements.


This is the original file but its in Turkish;
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/source.cms.docs/devletarsivleri.gov.tr.ce/docs/Yayinlar/20_Yunan3.pdf




These are some of the headlines;

Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904

It mentions about one Greek individual in Florina-Vesetran, forcing local people of Bulgarian patriarchy to sign false papers about a church belonging to the Greek patriarchy and he organize a Greek gangs of 30 men to force the inhabitants of a village named Prekopan to be the member of Greek patriarchy. This Greek gang also murders 2 men, one being a Bulgarian patriarchy cleric. October 4th, 1904

Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904

Armed Greek gangs comes to the village named Zehlince in Florina while local Macedonian inhabitants doing wedding ceremony and murders 10 people, leaving 6 injured. November, 29th 1904

Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905

60-70 armed Greek gangs injures a Macedonian cleric around the village of Osince and same gang goes to the village of Drenova and burns lots of books and papers inside a church. August 2nd, 1905...

Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905

Greek gang with 70 men goes to the church in a village named Gorice-Plas where mostly Vlach people lives and gathers everyone in the village at the church. They forcing them to quit praying in Vlach language and speaking Greek only. They threatens Vlachs that if they don't accept Greek identity and continue to use Vlach language, they will kill them. After the incident, they take few animal, some food and 2 men as a hostage and leaves the village. Local villagers demands Turkish government to build a local police station with soldiers in the village to protect them against never-ending oppression of Greek gangs. August 5th, 1905

[Makedonetz]

my apologies

[osiris]

[QUOTEYou're reading the sentence wrong. 'Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of prince Otto of Bavaria as a King of Greece' i.e. Kolokotronis supported prince Otto in becoming the King of Greece.[/QUOTE]
otto was only 17 when he became a hellene and was appointed king of the whatever they were in greece in 1824 and such did not rule directly.

the real rulers were the regents appointed by his father ludwig who was such a philhellene he had built a replica of the parthenon in bavaria.

my grandmothers sister became a greek when she was in her late 20s

its easy to become a greek, if you are white, not so easy if your parents were born in africa or the phillipines.

in fact in greece a maid is not called a maid anymore its called a filipina.

[TrueMacedonian]

Yes here it is......

After the war Kolokotronis became a supporter of Count I.A. Kapodistrias and a proponent of alliance with Russia. When the count was assassinated 8 October 1831, Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of Prince Otto of Bavaria as a king of Greece. However, later he opposed the Bavarian-dominated regency during his rule. He was charged with treason and on 7 June 1834 sentenced to death; but he was pardoned in 1835.
Theodoros Kolokotronis died in 1843 in Athens.

After the war Kolokotronis became a supporter of Count I.A. Kapodistrias and a proponent of alliance with Russia. When the count was assassinated 8 October 1831, Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of Prince Otto of Bavaria as a king of Greece. However, later he opposed the Bavarian-dominated regency during his rule. He was charged with treason and on 7 June 1834 sentenced to death; but he was pardoned in 1835.
Theodoros Kolokotronis died in 1843 in Athens.

Brewer, David L. The Greek War of Independence: The Struggle for Freedom from ottoman Oppression and the Birth of the Modern Greek Nation. Woodstock & New York, Overlook Press: 2001.

Kolokotronis, Theodoros. trans. Elizabeth M. Edmonds The Old Man of the Morea: An Autobiography. Reprint. Boston, Holy Cross Orthodox Press: 1984.

You're reading the sentence wrong. 'Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of prince Otto of Bavaria as a King of Greece' i.e. Kolokotronis supported prince Otto in becoming the King of Greece.

[Makedonetz]

Yes find the source and get back to us when you do.

Yes here it is......

After the war Kolokotronis became a supporter of Count I.A. Kapodistrias and a proponent of alliance with Russia. When the count was assassinated 8 October 1831, Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of Prince Otto of Bavaria as a king of Greece. However, later he opposed the Bavarian-dominated regency during his rule. He was charged with treason and on 7 June 1834 sentenced to death; but he was pardoned in 1835.
Theodoros Kolokotronis died in 1843 in Athens.

After the war Kolokotronis became a supporter of Count I.A. Kapodistrias and a proponent of alliance with Russia. When the count was assassinated 8 October 1831, Kolokotronis created his own administration in support of Prince Otto of Bavaria as a king of Greece. However, later he opposed the Bavarian-dominated regency during his rule. He was charged with treason and on 7 June 1834 sentenced to death; but he was pardoned in 1835.
Theodoros Kolokotronis died in 1843 in Athens.

Brewer, David L. The Greek War of Independence: The Struggle for Freedom from ottoman Oppression and the Birth of the Modern Greek Nation. Woodstock & New York, Overlook Press: 2001.

Kolokotronis, Theodoros. trans. Elizabeth M. Edmonds The Old Man of the Morea: An Autobiography. Reprint. Boston, Holy Cross Orthodox Press: 1984.