Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

[Carlin]

Not only did French travel writer Olivier (end of 18th century) consider the entire population of Macedonia to be "Greek" but many other European nations, including Russians, did not know the ethnic composition of Macedonia.

Before the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-1829, according to Milan Prelog, a Russian journalist was amazed that in European Turkey there exist people of Orthodox faith, who still speak a language that's close to Church Slavonic (Milan Prelog, Slovenska renesansa 1780-1848, Zagreb 1924, 159).

Even Victor Grigorovich, as related to us by D. Miladinov, during his visit to Ohrid in 1844 wondered how in these distant parts of the Balkans, where previously it was believed only Greeks lived, there is a Slavic-speaking population.

-- Page 74 of Dragan Taskovski's book "The birth of the Macedonian nation"

From the same book ^^ page 106.

The Bulgarian writer St. Salgandzhiev writes ironically about a Salonica teacher as being a "mixture of nationalities", because the teacher's father was a Vlach and his mother Macedonian.

When asked whether he was "Bulgarian" or Vlach the teacher replied: "I am neither Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Vlach, but a pure Macedonian - same as Philip and Alexander and Aristotle the philosopher."



Elsewhere in the same book, 1871 source relates how there are such people in Macedonia who think and talk about how they are not Bulgarians, but Macedonians and these are mostly Graeco-Vlachs (= 'Greeks') and Graecophile "Bulgarians" (List Pravo, Tsarigrad, March 1871).



According to Enicherev, year 1874, the Bitola Vlachs used to sing: "The Pan-Slavist scab will not infect the Macedonians."

[Carlin]

Not only did French travel writer Olivier (end of 18th century) consider the entire population of Macedonia to be "Greek" but many other European nations, including Russians, did not know the ethnic composition of Macedonia.

Before the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-1829, according to Milan Prelog, a Russian journalist was amazed that in European Turkey there exist people of Orthodox faith, who still speak a language that's close to Church Slavonic (Milan Prelog, Slovenska renesansa 1780-1848, Zagreb 1924, 159).

Even Victor Grigorovich, as related to us by D. Miladinov, during his visit to Ohrid in 1844 wondered how in these distant parts of the Balkans, where previously it was believed only Greeks lived, there is a Slavic-speaking population.

-- Page 74 of Dragan Taskovski's book "The birth of the Macedonian nation"

[Carlin]

URL:

http://www.rastko.rs/rastko-al/zbornik1990/pvlahovic-sloveni.php

"The process of Albanization of Slavs was long. Slavic groups (villages, parts of villages), however, maintained themselves for a very long time. Such groups were in the east, closer to Macedonia, and in the northwest, closer to the Serbian regions. In the 16th century, the Opar area, for example, was completely Slavic. In the 17th century, the episcopes of Gora and Mokra are mentioned southwest of the Ohrid Lake. Today, this is completely an Albanian-Muslim region..."

[Carlin]

Carlin, as you mentioned earlier, the Greek-speaking (bilingual) Vlachs in Bogatsko settled there from Epirus sometime in late 18th century. I don't have a problem with that but would you agree that, originally, the village was founded by ethnic Macedonians? I think it has been established that during the 1500's, the Bogatsko natives pretty much spoke, what is now Standard Modern Macedonian which is based on the central Macedonian dialects of Bitola, Lerin and Prilep.

Karposh, all of what you said is correct.

[Karposh]

According to 19th-century Belgian testimonies that refer to the villages of Korca (Gorica) and Devol, inhabited by ethnic Macedonians, but under Albanian pressure accepted the Albanian language, that is, they Albanized or Islamized in order to receive Ottoman protection.

It is noted that massively, the Macedonian peasants from Korca and Devol, who spoke Macedonian as their mother tongue, adopted the Albanian language around 1870. The leaders of the villages in these areas pledged not to speak their mother tongue and to not speak it to their children.

- Magazine "Albania" Bruxelles, 15–30 June 1898, p. 32.

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8...B5%D1%82%D0%B8

That's actually quite upsetting. A whole section of Macedonian society wiped away of their own accord. We are truly our own worst enemies. Can you just imagine the leverage these Macedonians would have had in the context of today's Macedonian/Albanian demographic power struggles in Macedonia. What an absolute shame and disgrace.

Now, 150 years later, history is repeating itself. The whole country has renounced its identity, history and culture in the hope of gaining some kind of advantage with the powers that be.

[Karposh]

In the book by Dragan Taskovski, "The birth of the Macedonian nation" (in Serbian), Bogatsko is explicitly called a Vlach village. Ultimately it appears to be a source from 1839, Ami Boue. The 500 Vlach households of Bogatsko have declared themselves as Greeks for many many decades.

Carlin, as you mentioned earlier, the Greek-speaking (bilingual) Vlachs in Bogatsko settled there from Epirus sometime in late 18th century. I don't have a problem with that but would you agree that, originally, the village was founded by ethnic Macedonians? I think it has been established that during the 1500's, the Bogatsko natives pretty much spoke, what is now Standard Modern Macedonian which is based on the central Macedonian dialects of Bitola, Lerin and Prilep.

[Carlin]

According to 19th-century Belgian testimonies that refer to the villages of Korca (Gorica) and Devol, inhabited by ethnic Macedonians, but under Albanian pressure accepted the Albanian language, that is, they Albanized or Islamized in order to receive Ottoman protection.

It is noted that massively, the Macedonian peasants from Korca and Devol, who spoke Macedonian as their mother tongue, adopted the Albanian language around 1870. The leaders of the villages in these areas pledged not to speak their mother tongue and to not speak it to their children.

- Magazine "Albania" Bruxelles, 15–30 June 1898, p. 32.

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8

[Carlin]

Nope Bill, I’m with you in this.

I have argued in dozens of cases when Carlin presents an apparently non-Vlach village as a Vlach one.

Many Greek-speaking (bilingual) Vlachs from Epirus settled in Bogatsko.

Traditions from Bogatsko indicate that, in the late 18th century, Castorians had prevented the settlement of some Epirote refugees in their city. Thus, about 70 families from different places, mainly from Moschopole, Fourka, Souli and Parga, eventually settled in Bogatsko. In 1889 according to the Serbian Spiridon Gopcevic's statistics, Bogatsko is reported to be inhabited by 3,000 Greek-speaking and Vlach-speaking Christians.

URL:
http://www.vlachs.gr/el/various-arti...-tis-kastorias

I really wish we had information on the other villages, (and maybe if we dig hard enough we'll find it), but I think the information we have on Bogatsko is a good "sample" or representative for the rest of the Greek speaking villages.

In the book by Dragan Taskovski, "The birth of the Macedonian nation" (in Serbian), Bogatsko is explicitly called a Vlach village. Ultimately it appears to be a source from 1839, Ami Boue. The 500 Vlach households of Bogatsko have declared themselves as Greeks for many many decades.



PDF:

http://kok.memoryoftheworld.org/Dragan%20Taskovski/Radanje%20makedonske%20nacije%20(728)/Radanje%20makedonske%20nacije%20-%20Dragan%20Taskovski.pdf

[Carlin]

"Immediately after his decisive victory over the Persians in 626 the emperor Heraclius turned his attention to the former Balkan provinces of the empire. Certain of the measures then taken had a lasting effect upon the history of the north-western Balkans. The Croats, a people probably of Sarmatian origin and living among Slavonic tribes in Bohemia and Silesia, were encouraged by the Byzantines to revolt against the Avars and to settle in the region south of the Save and behind the Dinaric Alps, where they speedily established themselves as the dominant power. Their rulers accepted Christianity from Byzantium, though they later lapsed, and it was from Rome, via the surviving Dalmatian cities, that the later conversion of the Croat people proceeded. Another half-Slavicised Sarmatian people, the Serbs, also revolted against the Avars, left their home somewhere in Saxony and were settled by Heraclius in the neighbourhood of Thessalonika... They were later, perhaps at their own request, moved to the area south of Singidunum and settled among the Slav tribes there as allies of Byzantium."

-- Byzantium and Bulgaria. A comparative study across the early medieval frontier, Robert Browning

[Carlin]

Gardīzī told about the territory of Hungarians: "The Hungarians' country is situated between the territory of bulkars and eskils, who date back to the bulkars. (...) Their country reaches the Rum-sea [Black Sea]. (...) The two rivers, which flow into the Rum-sea, are called Atil [Volga] and Danube."

He wrote the following text about the Hungarian people and their culture: "These Hungarian people are pretty and handsome. Their clothes are made of brocade. Their weapons are decorated by silver and gold. In the time of proposal they have to pay for the girl, mainly they give animals. But it can be the fur of ermine, squirrel, mart or fox."

The records of Gardīzī are similar to the records of Ahmad ibn Rustah. Both of them used the notes of Ibn Harrudadbhi, called Roads and Countries as their sources, but Ahmad ibn Rustah used an older and Gardīzī used a newer one, so Gardīzī's texts contain additional information as well. For instance: "On the left [=western] side of the territory of the Hungarians near the river of Slavs there is a Christian tribe of Rum, and they are known as Wonondur."

URL:

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Abu_Sa'id_Gardezi.html

"Wonondur" seems to refer to Onogur-Bulgars.

[Carlin]

The Islamization process is held to have occurred in Golo Brdo relatively late in Ottoman times. In 1519, the region was still entirely Christian.

Some authors have held that the Islamization process in Golo Brdo to have occurred in the late 18th century, whereas others asserted that the impetus to mass Islamization in the region was the bedel tax, imposed only on Christians because they were not drafted and initiated in the region in the year 1832. According to this second theory, this tax was particularly harsh and caused many families to turn to Islam as a means of avoiding it. During the same period, a mass emigration process occurred, and many Muslim families settled elsewhere, including in Debar, and in Struga's Drimkol region.

The families that settled in Debar became Albanized, but retain memory of their origins which are denoted by their last names, including Klenja, Trebishta, Ostreni, Torbaçi, Serpetova, and others.

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gollobord%C3%AB

[Carlin]

- In the year 358 AD the servile Sarmatian tribe the Limigantes came in revolt against the leading tribe, the Argaragantes in an internal Sarmatian war and they expelled their masters. These warrior nobility received a warm welcome in the Roman Empire and got settlements for them and their families in different provinces in the heartland of the Empire in Thracia, Macedonia and Northern Italy.

- Emperor Valentinian II (375-392) strengthened the borders of Pannonia by concluding new treaties foedera with the Sarmatians and Goths and offers them settlements on the Roman side of the Danube in Pannonia. It is mentioned that the majority of the Sarmatians was still living east of the Don. Sarmatians stayed in the Pannonian Plane still after the time of the Hun invasions.

- 450, in the time of the raids of the Hun Attilla groups of Sarmato-Alans were installed under their leader Candac as Foederati in the Danube valley in Little Scythia, now Bulgaria.

https://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm

PS: In August 358 a series of earthquakes, accompanied by at least one tsunami, hit Asia, Macedonia (only the coastal areas/towns were likely affected), and Pontus and devastated numerous cities. The most notable casualty was the city of Nicomedia (in what is now Turkey) on 24 August. The earthquake caused extensive devastation to Nicomedia which was followed by a fire which completed the catastrophe. Nicomedia was rebuilt, but on a much smaller scale.

[Carlin]

Sarcophagus dating from the Roman era found during road work in Skopje

URL:

https://english.republika.mk/news/culture/sarcophagus-dating-from-the-roman-era-found-during-road-work-in-skopje/

A burial sarcophagus dating from the 2nd century AD was found during road work on Skopje’s main boulevard Partizanski Odredi, in the western part of the Karpos district. The sarcophagus was made in the Roman period.

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

MPO publication from 1964.