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Dimko-piperkata
01-25-2009, 04:24 PM
YouTube - Sam Vaknin - Greece behaves like a CHILD ! (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8tFWlsCRqZc)

Risto the Great
06-03-2009, 10:07 PM
http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2959
03 Jun 2009

On August 26, 2008, I published an article titled Greek-American Plan to Resolve Macedonia's Name Issue?. In it, I described an American plan to resolve the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece (see note at the bottom of the first section of this article).

The Plan included five elements: (1) Macedonia will change its constitutional name to Northern Macedonia ("The Republic of North Macedonia"); (2) Macedonia will be granted a transition period to amend its constitution and to alter its registered name with various international and multilateral institutions; (3) Macedonia will be issued an invitation to join NATO; (4) Both countries will be allowed to use the adjective "Macedonian" (both commercially and non-commercially); (5) The parties will renounce any and all claims to each other's territory.

Sure enough, weeks later, Matthew Nimetz, the UN mediator in the name issue published essentially the very same plan. It was promptly rejected by both parties.

Macedonia has hitherto been literally invisible on the Obama's Administration's list of priorities. But this is fast changing. Obama and Clinton still regard the Balkans as essentially a European problem. But, as they tackle the Middle-East head-on, the last thing they need is a "second front" with restive minorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or Macedonia. Additionally, countries like Macedonia and Israel are now bound to pay the price for having been staunch supporters of Republican administrations in general, and George Bush in particular.

The Obama Administration will shortly appoint a Balkans Envoy, a person well-known and little-liked in Macedonia for his coarse interference in its internal affairs. His job will be twofold: to calm passions down in Bosnia, if necessary through well-timed and much-publicized arrests and to force both Macedonia and Greece to accept the above-mentioned five-points plan. The USA will not take "no" for an answer and will set a strict timetable for the resolution of the name issue and a NATO invitation by yearend.

Macedonia doesn't stand a chance of resisting such an onslaught. It will be forced into a humiliating retreat. Prime Minister Gruevski can use the country's new President, Gjorge Ivanov, as a scapegoat and "blame" him for any painful compromises Macedonia may be forced to make. But this gimmick won't work: Macedonian s widely (and wrongly) perceive Ivanov to be Gruevski's puppet.

Gruevski will go to a referendum on any compromise struck with Greece. It would be an unwise move, though: If the citizenry rejects the suggested deal, Gruevski will be faced with two stark alternatives: (1) To be the Prime Minister of a disintegrating country (as the Albanians will surely seek to secede from Macedonia or to federalize it, one way or the other); or (2) To lose his job altogether (as the Americans will surely seek to change the regime and depose him, as it has done in 2001-2 when it actively and successfully sought to unseat Ljupco Georgievski).

Following the country's ill-advised early elections in June, 2008, the right-wing VMRO-DPMNE was coerced by the international community (read: the EU and the USA) into joining forces with DUI, the political incarnation of erstwhile Albanian insurgents in the northwest of Macedonia, hitherto an anathema as far as Gruevski was concerned.

Hopping to bed with DUI will likely restrain the government's freedom of action. Every concession to Greece will be portrayed by jingoistic nationalists in Macedonia as capitulation and the consequence of blackmail by the Albanian parties. To the great consternation of the Macedonians, Albania, Macedonia's neighbor, has been invited to join NATO and its economy is growing even in the face of the global crisis. The restive Albanians of Macedonia would like to accede to the Alliance as soon as practicable and at all costs. Understandably, they are less attached to the country's constitutional name than the non-Albanian (Macedonian) majority.

Venom
06-04-2009, 12:04 AM
Is Sam still around?

Does anyone care what Sam has to say?

Sam if you were so smart and such a great economist, you wouldn't have been booted from your job. We all understand sour grapes mate, but now you're just boring.

Rogi
06-04-2009, 12:52 AM
Honestly, I think everything he has written above is just about spot on to what is happening.

I think in the end the 5 point plan above will be what happens (perhaps without point 2, or without the requirement to change the name in the Constitution - as a ploy to trick the people and help it pass in a referendum).

Maxim
06-04-2009, 05:32 AM
north macedonia is ok

Rogi
06-04-2009, 08:42 AM
To whom? Not to me. I'm just a Macedonian, that's what I intend to go buy for the rest of my life and, if memory of me survives, beyond my life.

Daskalot
06-04-2009, 09:04 AM
North Macedonia is not OK, because then the Greeks can continue their negation of the ethnic Macedonians in and outside of Greek borders by calling them North Macedonians thus Slavs whom have no connection to Ancient Macedonia which is "Greek" because today's inhabitants in Greek annexed Macedonia are Greeks which then justifies their right to the land.

Simple isnt it? :devil::devil:

Maxim
06-04-2009, 12:55 PM
as long as there are people like you macedonia will stay small poor and shall be conquered

Daskalot
06-04-2009, 02:25 PM
as long as there are people like you macedonia will stay small poor and shall be conquered

I think you should watch your mouth, what kind of Macedonian would say such a stupid thing? No real Macedonian but rather a importer.:stupid: Vasco are you taking your medication?

MapleLeaf1
06-04-2009, 05:22 PM
Its sad too see someone say that, and if you truly live in Macedonia its even sadder:no:

Risto the Great
06-04-2009, 06:49 PM
north macedonia is ok
Why is it ok?
I look forward to your reply.

King Makedon
06-04-2009, 09:33 PM
As I posted earlier only if ever a namechange will happen.
Only "The Free Republic of Macedonia" not more.

Jankovska
06-05-2009, 04:14 AM
I have a weird feeling that this is what is going to happen. With a goverment like ours and a diaspora who can't agree on anything I think we are lucky to be left with Severna Makedonia/

palatica
06-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Why not rename our Country into Vardar Macedonia, but the kalimeros must rename their part into Egej Macedonia.
Even it makes no difference to the kalimeros if we change our name or not, they will never recognise us macedonians, but we can use the "Egej" and "Vardar" prefix to solve some problems with the tatars, if they make some trouble with their "party" RATKO.

Risto the Great
06-09-2009, 08:10 PM
None of these name changes are necessary until the Macedonian part of Greece secedes from Greece. Any other talk of compromise is silly.

Soldier of Macedon
10-21-2009, 02:45 AM
I am sure plenty of people will contribute with examples of when this clown has been producing lies.

Shmuel, from myself I wish to thank you for producing your most recent set of lies about Macedonians and this forum in particular. It has now given us the platform to expose you for what you are, and all in the one place.

Feel free to jump in anytime and correct any misconceptions, even if it is with a pretend ID. For everybody's perusal:

http://samvak.tripod.com/cv.html

Nice CV, Shmuel.

Soldier of Macedon
10-21-2009, 02:56 AM
http://www.ce-review.org/99/23/vaknin23.html
Sam Vaknin

I am often accused of writing excoriating, biased diatribes of the Balkans.
Have you ever wondered why, Shmuel?
I often do.
And he admits it! I wonder, Shmuel, was that a diatribe full of lies about our forum or what? Or was that you telling the 'truth' (whatever that means in your deluded head)?

Funny how in this particular article he sort of supports Macedonia, but then again this was written 10 years ago. Shmuel has done many a backflip since then.

Soldier of Macedon
10-21-2009, 03:02 AM
Here is Shmuel ten years later in 2009, with his lie about this forum:

http://groups.google.com/group/narcissisticabuse/browse_thread/thread/54e8998b3a86e9ea?pli=1

The title is "Macedonian Antisemitism Online" - How pathetic. Why not, "Macedonians defend rights of Jews among their own people", or something that isn't biased? Wait a sec, you admitted 10 years ago that you are biased. Oh well......

Dejan
10-21-2009, 06:54 PM
I've felt for a long thime that there is something about this Sam Vaknin that doesn't sit right when it comes to Macedonia and Macedonians.

TrueMacedonian
10-21-2009, 07:47 PM
Sam Vaknin you dirty the name of the MTO because of a few opinions from SOME of its members, not all. Your simplistic, boring, unprofessional article (if one should even call it that) should have acknowledged the fact that people like SoM had stated the following unbiased opinion about Jews;

I have a few good Jewish friends, they are as shifty and/or honest as the next person, regardless of their origin. I know some Macedonians that I would trust as far as I can throw them.

Sam Vaknin you're a pathetic creature to write what you did about Macedonia. As far as I am concerned you're a spineless piece of trash that fears the information this forum has generated in such a short span of time.

TrueMacedonian
10-21-2009, 07:55 PM
Sammy the liar stated the following;

Like the vast majority of the peoples of Europe (with a few notable exceptions), the Macedonians sat back and did not lift a finger to help. Only a few brave Macedonian individuals bucked the trend. The silent majority simply took over the possessions and property of the exterminated Jews and looked the other way.

Where's the proof of your venomous diatribe Vaknin? Is it possible you can provide an unbiased piece of solid evidence Vaknin?

Are you just tired of having 6 readers that you decided to use this forum as a venture to acquire more readership to your unprofessional articles?

Soldier of Macedon
10-21-2009, 08:21 PM
Quite a pathetic fellow ain't he...
.......the Macedonians sat back and did not lift a finger to help....
What a slap in the face for all of those Macedonians that DID help. In case you didn't notice Sammy boy, Macedonia was also under severe occupation, it was a war, everybody was trying to help themselves, and in Macedonia it was the Bulgar invaders who rounded the Jews up, not the Macedonian locals.

I wonder, Shmuel, what did the the Jews do for Macedonia during the Ilinden Uprising, the Balkan Wars and WWII? Tell me, did they help the Macedonians when we were going through our own turmoil against our greedy neighbours, or did they just sit back and not lift a finger to help?

Contradictions, double-standards, lies, etc - The qualities of Shmuel Vaknin. People like you taint the image of good Jews.

TrueMacedonian
10-21-2009, 10:01 PM
i wonder, shmuel, what did the the jews do for macedonia during the ilinden uprising, the balkan wars and wwii? Tell me, did they help the macedonians when we were going through our own turmoil against our greedy neighbours, or did they just sit back and not lift a finger to help?

exactly!!!!

Bij
10-22-2009, 12:52 AM
it is sad uninformed individuals like this get the forum and recognition they do, yet so much about macedonia has been uncovered in the last 10 years and goes seemingly unnoticed.

Soldier of Macedon
10-24-2009, 02:27 AM
Not to worry Bij, people like Shmuel are peripheral, they come and go like a bad smell whenever their most recent wife has divorced and taken them to the cleaners, when their boyfriends break up with them, when they have one too many pipes (of whatever he is on in 2009), etc. Shmuel's value as a historical source of any sort concerning Macedonia is zero. He knows it, that is why he grabs on to anything he can to make something from nothing, otherwise, without his measly little website and 6 readers (pulja being one of them obviously) he would drop off the radar completely.

At least when people search about Vaknin on the net they will also eventually come across this thread and forum, so they can see what Shmuel is really about, a contradicting opportunist.

George S.
10-24-2009, 05:19 AM
I have read his articles & all i can say from being independent with no axe to grind that it's a piece of crap .Why it is written by someone who is an armchair critic withdrawn from reality.Sam the liar because that;s what you are you have written a pile of shit & trash & you change your belly more than a cut snake.Hey man get a life your a clown of the highest order.SOM& the true macedonian are deeply offended & so is the rest of the macedonians on the MTO forum , an apology would not go astray & grow up & tell the truth for a change.

Soldier of Macedon
12-25-2009, 07:35 AM
Here is some more of Shmuel's diatribes.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2313

Phoenix
12-25-2009, 08:57 AM
The thing that strikes me about the big 'V' is his vindictive streak, he seems to have a petty spitefulness in his opinion pieces about Macedonia since he was terminated from his advisory position with the Macedonian Government all those years ago...maybe theres some unresolved renumeration issues at hand and our little Shylock is demanding his pound of flesh...?

Soldier of Macedon
01-18-2010, 01:50 AM
It is well known that some months ago, Shmuel 'Sam' Vaknin, the hypocrite and renegade racist who is disgruntled with Macedonia since the Macedonian Government told him to take his 'paid advice' elsewhere, spewed up a diatribe against the Macedonian Truth Organisation due to comments made by some of its members related to the Jewish people. Typically, he fails to cite the examples of the administrators and others at the MTO who spoke out against anti-Semitism, preferring instead to povide unsuspecting readers of his deluded webiste only one (his) side of the story.

In an effort to stimulate some sort of interest about anything at all, this opportunistic fool has continued with his anti-Macedonian statements, and his anti-MTO attitude. No sane Macedonian would support this individual, who has behaved little better than a dog towards the Macedonian people. However, there is one person in the Macedonian community willing to give this manipulative propagandist a platform, as ridiculous as it sounds. Maknews is now, not only providing this compulsive liar a platform, but is actually promoting Shmuel's point of view, giving it an artificial and false credibility that in actual fact does not exist.

http://www.maknews.com/forum/general-discussions/sam-vaknin-claims-lectures-cancelled-by-hate-and-threats-t18226.html

Either Maknews has an unhealthy friendship with this anti-Macedonian jester, or, he enjoys posting up emails that (falsely) paint the MTO in a negative light. Whatever it is, it's pathetic, and is testament to what levels some individuals are now prepared to descend to.

This is what Shmuel is about, and these are responses to his rabid attack against the MTO:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2040&highlight=vaknin
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2313goto=newpost

The MTO is proud to declare that anybody who is an enemy of Macedonia and the Macedonian people, is an enemy of the MTO. We won't be posting up emails of anti-Macedonian racists, pretending to lend a sympathetic ear like Maknews, with whom it seems there are 'other goals' to achieve, in light of such a public display of contradictive stupidity.

Risto the Great
01-18-2010, 01:53 AM
Vaknin and/or his cronies were unable to reply sensibly to us.
Maknews decided this news of a few months ago was somehow newsworthy??
It is odd and entirely inappropriate.

Soldier of Macedon
01-18-2010, 01:57 AM
Perhaps it is entirely appropriate with regard to the vision of the 'promoter' of this despicable email.

Prolet
01-18-2010, 02:00 AM
Risto, When i asked Maknews why he doesnt post on this forum he advised that he didnt have enough time to do so.

Soldier of Macedon
01-18-2010, 02:06 AM
Isn't that nice, lol.

I am glad he still has time to read emails from anti-Macedonian racists and promote them on his website.

Risto the Great
01-18-2010, 02:12 AM
I wonder how Pelister/Paul reconciles Maknews' defense of Vaknin with his treatment:

You can take him or leave him, but don't bully him into silence or force his voice to be censored. (Maknews in relation to Vaknin)

Particularly after Pelister/Paul's recent banning on Maknews.

I would suggest real and passionate Macedonians appear to be a problem for Maknews and the Vaknins of this world are to be admired over there.

Risto the Great
01-18-2010, 02:13 AM
Risto, When i asked Maknews why he doesnt post on this forum he advised that he didnt have enough time to do so.
We are all busy Prolet.
I don't believe that reason though.

Bill77
01-18-2010, 02:23 AM
Now if anyone does not black ban Maknews over this, it would sugest they condone the anti Macedonian by Vakin, and Maknews for giving him a voice. Then these so called Macedonians that are members at Maknews, are not much better than all our Macedonian haters and have a good hard look at your selves.

Risto the Great
01-18-2010, 02:27 AM
I don't think Maknews (the forum) will suffer too much for this Bill.
Maknews (the poster) has his own brand of "political correctness" that is starting to really be questioned by many people at the moment.

Prolet
01-18-2010, 02:31 AM
Risto, According to this thread, Maknews doesnt want to see anymore forums.

http://www.maknews.com/forum/general-discussions/a-new-macedonian-forum-t17872.html

Soldier of Macedon
01-18-2010, 03:19 AM
Who cares what he wants to see? If it were up to him, the MTO would not exist. Maknews and Vaknin should continue their private liaisons and affairs behind closed doors, the stench is becoming unbearable in public.

Soldier of Macedon
01-19-2010, 12:55 AM
To the Maknews administrator, I know you're reading this you vindictive fool, keep posting your attacks against the Macedonian Truth. Perhaps the reference to this place may again get you some normal people reading the threads in that 2-man circus you have over there. We are happy to help.

Prolet
01-19-2010, 02:02 AM
SOM, I have nothing but respect for this forum, i can only hope that it grows bigger and better.

Soldier of Macedon
01-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Thanks Prolet.

Risto the Great
01-19-2010, 07:25 PM
i can only hope that it grows bigger and better.
They are really nice words. But it has to be said we are HUGE! If you look at Google links for some very important searches in relation to Macedonia, you will see the MTO giving the True Macedonian perspective. We are also getting a ridiculous number of hits per day.

To put it simple, we are doing very well because people like what is going on here.

Prolet
01-19-2010, 07:54 PM
Spolaj Ti Risto

How many hits are we talking about here?? 2000?

Pelister
01-19-2010, 10:55 PM
Perhaps it is entirely appropriate with regard to the vision of the 'promoter' of this despicable email.

I'm not surprised.

Maknews can be bought for nothing.

Generally I thought of him being fairly reliable when it came to our defence, but his relationship with Vaknin is new to me.

He's an old style Yugo-commie by the looks of things, although I never would have thought so.

The censorship at Maknews is old Commie behaviour. Everyone who has criticized UMD at Maknews (Vangelovski, Phoenix, Myself) have been banned for it. The forum guidelines have been thrown out ! Its amazing that UMD have had to perform a coup det ta at Maknews, to stop the criticism of just a small number of us.

Anyway, I sense that Maknews likes Vaknin's work alot.

Soldier of Macedon
01-19-2010, 11:12 PM
Either he likes Shmuel alot, or he is as opportunistic as he is, I suspect a combination of both, leaning more towards the latter.

Rogi
01-19-2010, 11:12 PM
For those of you who are unaware, Dr. Sam Vaknin is a member of the Steering Committee for the Advancement of Healthcare in the Republic Macedonia. In fact, it was his idea.

Here is the website on the Steering Committee:
http://www.sc-healthreform.org.mk/

Here is an article by Sam Vaknin about the Healthcare system in Macedonia:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/25688-healthcare-osmani-macedonia-who-reforms

Soldier of Macedon
01-19-2010, 11:14 PM
Thanks Rogi. He a friend of yours too? Should I post some of his other articles that are cited in the links previously submitted?

Rogi
01-19-2010, 11:27 PM
He's no friend of mine. I don't know the guy, I don't like the guy, I doubt (in fact, I am certain) I would not get a long with the guy if I knew him.

I'm not sure why you would ask that. Is it because I posted some information as to what he is up to / meddling with now in Macedonia?

That said, I do read his articles and I think they have a lot of insights into the Macedonian economy and internal politics. I don't think anyone could really deny that.


I despise his views, comments and opinions and try to skip through them and ignore them, they're just like those of any other person who couldn't care less about Macedonia and the Macedonians and only talks about 'political reality' from a Machiavellian viewpoint. I just try to get facts out of his articles (specifically, figures relating to the economy).

Soldier of Macedon
01-20-2010, 01:12 AM
It appeared that you were trying to show the 'other side of the coin' so to speak, by posting articles about what this donkey has done 'for' Macedonia. If this is not the case, then apologies for the confusion.

Rogi
01-20-2010, 01:50 AM
The man is a narcissist and practically a mercenary. He hasn't done, and doesn't do, anything for anyone, other than himself.

Phoenix
01-20-2010, 07:45 AM
He's no friend of mine. I don't know the guy, I don't like the guy, I doubt (in fact, I am certain) I would not get a long with the guy if I knew him.

I'm not sure why you would ask that. Is it because I posted some information as to what he is up to / meddling with now in Macedonia?

That said, I do read his articles and I think they have a lot of insights into the Macedonian economy and internal politics. I don't think anyone could really deny that.


I despise his views, comments and opinions and try to skip through them and ignore them, they're just like those of any other person who couldn't care less about Macedonia and the Macedonians and only talks about 'political reality' from a Machiavellian viewpoint. I just try to get facts out of his articles (specifically, figures relating to the economy).

Rogi, how can anyone trust Vaknin, he's a scorned little man. How can Vaknin be trusted to seperate his spiteful views, comments and opinions from his alleged area of expertise, the economy...surely this little shylock taints his economic 'commentary' with his general hatred of most things Macedonian...

Risto the Great
01-20-2010, 07:49 AM
Call him a Macedonian hater and he will say you hate Jews.

Phoenix
01-20-2010, 07:54 AM
Call him a Macedonian hater and he will say you hate Jews.

It's their first line of defence, the Jews are masters of turning the tables and they're absolutely relentless when screaming about discrimination...

Prolet
01-20-2010, 08:16 AM
Phoenix, Israeli Ambassador to Macedonia David Cohen recently stated in an interview that Macedonia was one of the very few countries that was not anti-semitic towards the Jewish People and Israel in general.

There are no boundaries for idiots and haters, Sam Vaknin hasnt got a leg to stand on its as simple as that.

Phoenix
01-20-2010, 08:31 AM
Phoenix, Israeli Ambassador to Macedonia David Cohen recently stated in an interview that Macedonia was one of the very few countries that was not anti-semitic towards the Jewish People and Israel in general.

There are no boundaries for idiots and haters, Sam Vaknin hasnt got a leg to stand on its as simple as that.

Prolet, the Macedonian people are Gods own children, we tolerate everybody, unfortunately we get screwed by everybody as a result of that same tolerance...because its a sign of weakness.

We tolerate clowns like Vaknin, Georgievski, Crvenkovski and a thousand other motherfuckers...instead of cutting their fuckin' heads off...

Risto the Great
04-18-2010, 06:38 PM
http://globalpolitician.com/26368-macedonia-greece-name-issue

Second Ohrid Framwork Agreement: Resolution of the Greek-Macedonian Name Dispute

Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. - 4/18/2010

Proposed on April 11, 2010 in preparation for a simulation-game initiated by the author and conducted under the auspices of A1 TV in Ohrid, April 23-25, 2010.
The only way to resolve the seemingly intractable name dispute between Greece and Macedonia is to internationalize it. The negotiations should openly include Ė besides the primary parties and the hapless UN negotiator, Nimetz Ė the USA, the EU, and, possibly, Russia. The final Agreement should be signed by Macedonia and Greece with the USA, EU, and, possibly Russia as witnesses and guarantors. Such an arrangement is not unprecedented: the Ohrid Framework Agreement of 2001 included international assurances and guarantees. It is a common practice in international relations, too: Israel and Egypt signed a series of agreements in 1982 only after the USA issued side letters with guarantees and assurances to both parties.

What should such a guarantee include as a minimum? Clearly, it should cater to the needs and assuage the anxieties of both parties, the Greeks and the Macedonians. It should not be too rigid: constructive ambiguity is essential for the final resolution of the name dispute in the future.

The main elements of such an assurance side letter should be:

1. Both parties renounce all claims on each otherís territory and recognize the current borders between them as final. These borders are guaranteed by the USA, EU, and Russia;

2. The USA, EU, and Russia support the use of the term ďMacedonianĒ to describe the ethnicity and language of the citizens of Macedonia who so choose to define themselves;

3. Article (2) above notwithstanding, the USA, EU, and Russia, together with the United Nations, will continue to collaborate with the parties to find an appropriate and lasting solution;

4. Greece will support Macedoniaís accession to NATO and the EU and will not veto its admission, nor will it obstruct negotiations with Macedonia;

5. Macedonia will terminate all legal proceedings against Greece brought by it in international or other courts.

The "name issue" involves a protracted dispute over the last 18 years between the two Balkan polities over Macedonia's right to use its constitutional name, "The Republic of Macedonia". The Greeks claim that Macedonia is a region in Greece and that, therefore, the country Macedonia has no right to monopolize the name and its derivatives ("Macedonian").

The Greeks feel that Macedonians have designs on the part of Greece that borders the tiny, landlocked country and that the use of Macedonia's constitutional name internationally will only serve to enhance irredentist and secessionist tendencies, thus adversely affecting the entire region's stability.

Macedonia retorts that it has publicly renounced any claims to any territory of any of its neighbors. Greece is Macedonia's second largest foreign investor. The disparities in size, military power and geopolitical and economic prowess between the two countries make Greek "fears" appear to be ridiculous. Macedonians have a right to decide how they are to be called, say exasperated Macedonian officials.

The Greek demands are without precedent either in history or in international law. Many countries bear variants of the same name (Yemen, Korea, Germany until 1990, Russia and Byelorussia, Mongolia). Others share their name with a region in another country (Brittany in France and Great Britain across the channel, for instance).

In the alliance's Bucharest Summit, in April 2008, Macedonia was not invited to join NATO. Macedonia was rejected because it would not succumb to Greek intransigence: Greece insisted that Macedonia should change its constitutional name to cater to Greek domestic political sensitivities.

Point 1, irrelevant. Only Greece needs to do this as Macedonia has amended its constitution to reflect this already. Greece can do the same to its constitution to avoid dealing with this issue.

Point 2, fine.

Point 3, what was the purpose of this guaranteed agreement again? What else do Macedonians need the Russians, USA etc for? Can't we have hot Brazilians women helping with the decision as well? Perhaps we should just have Macedonia speaking for itself.

Point 4, only if Macedonia really wants it.

Point 5, stop the ICJ thingfor sure. It is demeaning to us. But do not even think about putting a stop on all and sundry claims against Greece for the injustices it has perpetrated against Macedonians.

Spartan
04-18-2010, 07:08 PM
edit........

makedonche
04-19-2010, 03:37 AM
Item 1/. No
Item 2/. No
Item 3/. No
Item 4/. No
Item 5/. Fuck off!

Risto the Great
04-19-2010, 03:44 AM
Ummm, 2 = yes Makedonche.
Stop being so angry.

makedonche
04-19-2010, 04:06 AM
Ummm, 2 = yes Makedonche.
Stop being so angry.
RTG
We don't need anyone to tell us it's ok or to back it or to approve it, that's been the problem all along, as soon as we took heed of any other opinions, then the rest of them came out of the woodwork with what we should or shouldn't call ourselves and that we should respect our neighbours and encourage good neighbourly relations by agreeing to negotiate, and agreeing to a UN mediator to help us be good neighbours in solving the name issue! NAME ISSUE????? WTF...... There is no name issue! - we don't need approval,support,agreements or mediators - the simple answer to all of the questions posed and any other they wish to pose is "NO" there is no name issue, no name negotiation, nothing to discuss, wev'e chosen already!

If the USA, EU & Russia had an ounce of Integrity and the balls to back it up this "name issue" that Greece has, wouldn't exist.

fyrOM
04-19-2010, 06:33 AM
RTG do you know the story of the man standing in the middle of a city a bit dumbfounded. Another person walks up to him and asks him what are you looking for. He says people. The second guy say there are people all around you. He says there not people. Do you really think the eu usa Russia or any of them are lujge. If they were there would be no name issue to discuss. The devil is in the detail. In point 2 the citizens of which Macedonia can so choose to define themselves - the Macedonians in Macedonia the Macedonians in Greek Macedonia or the Greeks in Greek Macedonia who want to call themselves Macedonians. Then does this agreement preclude other people say in Bulgaria or Albania from choosing to define themselves as Macedonian. Iím with makedonce. It sounds like document cooked up at 3am in a bar after a night out drinking. Whenever a sales person comes to you if its too good to be true it probably is and just say no.

Risto the Great
04-19-2010, 06:42 AM
The pre-condition in this silly little exercise is that some super powers drive this process. And that those super powers are to acknowledge Macedonians as Macedonians. Not that difficult fellas. I have no problem with that starting assumption.

Rogi
04-19-2010, 06:55 AM
I'm sorry, what is this all about?

Since when is the Macedonian ethnicity up for negotiation or discussion? That is outside of the illegal Interim Accord and outside of the jurisdiction of any party mentioned above.

It is purely about the name of the State, and the State's right to the name. There's nothing else beyond that. Sam may be confusing a clear legal argument with his tendency to politicise a clear issue, or allow the politicisation (as Greece is doing) of some very clear legal issues.

Why is ethnicity up for discussion here? If anything is to be raised and 'internationalised', it is Greece's horrific treatment of its' ethnic minorities and in particular the Macedonian minority in Greece.

Prolet
04-19-2010, 07:43 AM
Sam Vaknin is just repeating the same stuff over and over again, he's like a broken record.

We dont need to listen to his shit, he has nothing good to offer.

julie
04-19-2010, 07:58 AM
makedonche, am with you brother

negotiation , a definition by Julie.

To the next person, animal, thing that uses the term negotiation and Macedonia in the same breath

I would take great delight in removing their testicles if they have any and feeding it to them . females will suffer another fate

And to those UMD Titoist bottom lickers, get lost.

Prolet
04-19-2010, 10:39 AM
http://sitel.com.mk/node/13426

zadan
06-21-2010, 03:00 AM
for fairness you should read vaknin response:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/rebuttal.html

vaknin is member of frckoski group platforma and apaer many times with frckoski, buckovski, mehmeti, ismail, beleli and many albanians and komunijari. vaknin is frend of gruevski. vaknin work with osmani from dui. what is going on with vaknin the oktopod????? what vaknin and frckoski doing with vleje and jurnalist jovanovski in "simulation" of name issue in ohrid that vaknin is calling second ohrid agreement???? vaknin is every were and in every ting!!!


what happen to the health comitee that vaknin and bujar osmani made? vaknin made many promises and then disapaer completly with this health project!!!!! why did he start and why sudenly stop? what is vaknin doing in our country?what dark plans he has for us?


see vaknin on vo centar with vasko evtov? he is confirming everything i write here!


macedonia is very interesting for mosad and izrael because of islamists and
wahabists and terrorist mujahidin here in kosovo and albania and bih. this
is normal.

everyone know vaknin is mosad spy. his sister is general in izraeli army and
chief censor. see this article about VAKNIN SISTER:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/03/world/la-fg-israel-censor-qa-20100503

another mosad spy gidion sandel is back in izrael now after he was in prison
here for fake credit cards.

but why vaknin is here exactly all the time? what he wants from our poor
tatkovina? why he is connected to GRUEVSKI? he is planing to destroy
macedonia for sure. but why?

1. GEORGIEVSKI sad in vo centar (vasko eftov) that vaknin convince him to make GRUEVSKI minister

2. vaknin initiate simulation game of name negotiations in ohrid with VELJE
(and "jurnalist" borjan jovanovski)

3. KERIM is repeating vaknin plan for direct negotiation with greece

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26368-macedonia-greece-name-issue

why respectable man like kerim is promoting agenda of big hater of
macedonia, enemy of macedonians, bigamist, criminal escaped from izrael, and psicopat like fake "doctor" vaknin?

why no macedonian television is showing this movie documentar about vaknin? what are they afraid of?

see this interntaional movie about the true vaknin:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/

vaknin made donkys and monkys out of macedonian journalists and is calling them prostitutes in this article:

http://samvak.tripod.com/pp43.html

they always interview him as expert, but he has fake "doctorate" and is
izmamnik in jail in izrael and escaped from there, living wife and childrens
behind him with no mony, nothing.

why not to make him persona-non-grate, to throw him out of macedonia?

for fairness you should read vaknin response:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/rebuttal.html

makedonche
06-21-2010, 03:13 AM
Golem spion! Frli go nadvoor ot makedonija otma!

Prolet
06-21-2010, 03:32 AM
1. GEORGIEVSKI sad in vo centar (vasko eftov) that vaknin convince him to make GRUEVSKI minister

Georgievski said that he liked an article that Gruevski wrote and he was promoted.

It was Mane Jakovleski who suggested that Nikola Gruevski become President of the VMRO party, Nikola Gruevski said he would only accept if he had the support of the senior VMRO leaders which he did and he hasnt looked back since.

Bratot
06-21-2010, 03:48 AM
for fairness you should read vaknin response:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/rebuttal.html

vaknin is member of frckoski group platforma and apaer many times with frckoski, buckovski, mehmeti, ismail, beleli and many albanians and komunijari. vaknin is frend of gruevski. vaknin work with osmani from dui. what is going on with vaknin the oktopod????? what vaknin and frckoski doing with vleje and jurnalist jovanovski in "simulation" of name issue in ohrid that vaknin is calling second ohrid agreement???? vaknin is every were and in every ting!!!


what happen to the health comitee that vaknin and bujar osmani made? vaknin made many promises and then disapaer completly with this health project!!!!! why did he start and why sudenly stop? what is vaknin doing in our country?what dark plans he has for us?


see vaknin on vo centar with vasko evtov? he is confirming everything i write here!


macedonia is very interesting for mosad and izrael because of islamists and
wahabists and terrorist mujahidin here in kosovo and albania and bih. this
is normal.

everyone know vaknin is mosad spy. his sister is general in izraeli army and
chief censor. see this article about VAKNIN SISTER:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/03/world/la-fg-israel-censor-qa-20100503

another mosad spy gidion sandel is back in izrael now after he was in prison
here for fake credit cards.

but why vaknin is here exactly all the time? what he wants from our poor
tatkovina? why he is connected to GRUEVSKI? he is planing to destroy
macedonia for sure. but why?

1. GEORGIEVSKI sad in vo centar (vasko eftov) that vaknin convince him to make GRUEVSKI minister

2. vaknin initiate simulation game of name negotiations in ohrid with VELJE
(and "jurnalist" borjan jovanovski)

3. KERIM is repeating vaknin plan for direct negotiation with greece

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26368-macedonia-greece-name-issue

why respectable man like kerim is promoting agenda of big hater of
macedonia, enemy of macedonians, bigamist, criminal escaped from izrael, and psicopat like fake "doctor" vaknin?

why no macedonian television is showing this movie documentar about vaknin? what are they afraid of?

see this interntaional movie about the true vaknin:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/

vaknin made donkys and monkys out of macedonian journalists and is calling them prostitutes in this article:

http://samvak.tripod.com/pp43.html

they always interview him as expert, but he has fake "doctorate" and is
izmamnik in jail in izrael and escaped from there, living wife and childrens
behind him with no mony, nothing.
why not to make him persona-non-grate, to throw him out of macedonia?

for fairness you should read vaknin response:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/rebuttal.html

Could you state the opposite about the most of our journalist and media than Vaknin?

Beside the personal distortion of Vaknin in many occassions where he is insultive and respectless toward us and directly suggesting anti-macedonian solutions, who do you suggest is behind his role in Macedonia?

I'm not sure if we should give him more attention than he deserve really, but I would like to hear more argumentated analysis than presumption of his "intentions" and purposes in Macedonia. I'm not interested in "zhuta shtampa" debate.

Georgievski said that he liked an article that Gruevski wrote and he was promoted.

It was Mane Jakovleski who suggested that Nikola Gruevski become President of the VMRO party, Nikola Gruevski said he would only accept if he had the support of the senior VMRO leaders which he did and he hasnt looked back since.

Could you give any reference to this and tell us more about it?
How did you find out Prolet?

zadan
06-21-2010, 03:59 AM
Georgievski said that he liked an article that Gruevski wrote and he was promoted.

It was Mane Jakovleski who suggested that Nikola Gruevski become President of the VMRO party, Nikola Gruevski said he would only accept if he had the support of the senior VMRO leaders which he did and he hasnt looked back since.

no, georgievski clear says in interview vo centar that vaknin recomend him gruevski to be minister. it is on youtube, no problem to see. gruevski become minister after he and vaknin publish book of dialogs (also publish first in the papers). this made gruevski famos as ekonomist:

http://worldcat.org/oclc/52239639&referer=brief_results

gruevski now delete this chapter from his official history in goverment page sight - no vaknin there ...:o))

http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/958

but he wrot this biographia long ago on vaknin website (tripod), so he cannot lie to history:

http://samvak.tripod.com/cvng.html

also den donchev tell everyone in australia that vaknin made gruevski, he was nothing without vaknin, no knolege, etc. vaknin was the brain, gruevski just fasada and that vaknin give idea for gruevski to be head of vmro. donchev know because he was generalen sekretar of vmro. this is also very know in public in macedonia and papers there say it all the time; with out vaknin there was no gruevski, he is marioneta of vaknin.

zadan
06-21-2010, 04:09 AM
I'm not sure if we should give him more attention than he deserve really,

he deserve many more atention than he recive. he is with gruevski, frckoski, osmani and he deserve no atention? dont u see that he is kind of oktopod that someting very bad is goin with him? he is not normal jurnalist or nobody foreiner - he is involved in history of our tatkovina in very deep way!

Simply Macedonian
06-21-2010, 07:25 AM
I believe Eftov should also be declared persona non grata..or at the very least-OFF THE AIR..for his anti Macedonian rantings.

Prolet
06-21-2010, 08:34 AM
Could you give any reference to this and tell us more about it?
How did you find out Prolet?


Bratot, This information has already been posted why havnt you been paying attention?

Mane Jakovleski mentions it for the very first time.

From 1:20

YouTube - –Ę—Ä–ł–Ī–ł–Ĺ–į-–ě—Ā—É–ī–Ķ–Ĺ–ł –∑–į –í–ú–*–ě (30.04.2010) –ī–Ķ–Ľ 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omPLxtaTm1g)

Volk
06-21-2010, 11:09 AM
I believe Eftov should also be declared persona non grata..or at the very least-OFF THE AIR..for his anti Macedonian rantings.

For instance?

Pelister
06-21-2010, 08:38 PM
Vaknin has edited a number of books, I believe, on Greek history and society.

zadan
06-22-2010, 03:30 AM
Vaknin has edited a number of books, I believe, on Greek history and society.

no, but he write catastofa book anti-macedonia:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16621049/Macedonia-A-Nation-at-a-Crossroads

also here (better copy, no registration requird):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/macedonia.pdf

another books about kossovo, eu, etc:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/freebooks.html

zadan
07-01-2010, 09:59 AM
http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?itemID=7458CAF1704C684E8F13308AC6CABB6C&arc=1

in dnevnik of velje. vaknin invent the simulation "game" with name issue in ohrid, playing with the sudbina of macedonian people with a1, another velje media.

VOTE TO THRO VAKNIN OUT OF MAKEDONIJA!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3829

zadan
07-03-2010, 12:35 PM
more poison from vaknin, big hater of macedonians:

http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=124914

and macedonians mediums keep to present him as expert and to give him time and space. stupids.

Rogi
07-03-2010, 01:39 PM
This is an absurd claim with a completely baseless constatation.

Macedonia has reaffirmed its' "One China" policy numerous times over the last 5+ years and relations with China have been excellent.

If any of the Balkan nations are being shunned by China and Chinese investors, it is Albania, having (as recently as 2006) upset the Chinese after they took the five Uighurs detainees sent to Albania from Guantanamo Bay in the United States; those five Uighurs remain in Albania today.

The reasons for Chinese companies not investing in Macedonia are the same as those of any other company and range from corruption and insecurity in investment, to infrastructural and energy deficiencies leading to the high operating costs (and thus lower gross profit margins / lower returns) and high initial overhead costs.

zadan
07-04-2010, 04:51 AM
vaknin himself is saying it all the time that macedonia is not good place for investments from foreigners:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/dont-hurry-to-invest-in-macedonia.html

but he hate macedonians so much that he will say things contra to his self just to make a damage to macedonia.

real question is why macedonian mediums continue to give him time and space as t.n. "expert"? why they are not showing the dokumentar film that he is psicopat and fake "doctor"? what they are and who they are afraid of? why they are working against national interest of our tatkovina? he is paying them money? what? what is with this f**n jew that is sucking the blod of macedonia so many years?

VMRO
07-04-2010, 08:51 AM
Shmuel makes assumptions hoping that one out of the thousands of stupid statements he releases on the internet turn out to be true.

Shmuel boasts that he has such a high iq, having a high iq must also make you a tight arse with his crappy free tripod website

http://samvak.tripod.com/

Seriously Shmuel, if you're going to have a website, at least pay an annual fee and make a proper one, you're a joke!

zadan
07-07-2010, 03:12 AM
if we going to thro this SOB out from macedonia we need to stick to facts. facts are enoug, belive me! we must be appear serios and with reserch!

for instance, samvak.tripod.com is vaknin very old website. he has paid website long time now: http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com and http://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/narcissism-narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd/menu-id-1469/

Bratot
07-07-2010, 04:00 AM
Less we mention him better for everyone and worse for him. Don't give him the promotion he seek and satisfaction of provocating us.

zadan
07-11-2010, 08:53 AM
i understand you, brat, believe me but i also disagree. we ignore him but the stupid macedonian mediums are not! for example:

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=1&EditionID=2065&ArticleID=144314

we should thro him out of macedonia maybe with petition to mvr (??) why is everyone so afraid of him? why they not showing the dokumentar about him?

this dirty jew made enogh damage to out tatkovina.

zadan
07-11-2010, 08:56 AM
http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=1&EditionID=2065&ArticleID=144314

stupid macedonian mediums give this dirty jew space to atack the tatkovina all the time and even call this fake doctor "expert". i am disgust.

julie
07-11-2010, 08:56 AM
Shmuel is a tool, I suggest we dont promote self serving wankers

julie
07-11-2010, 08:57 AM
zadan, could you put thi piece of crap on the other thread, I dont suggest posting new threads for the same tool is in the best interests of the Macedonian cause by providing him with free advertising

Bill77
07-11-2010, 09:04 AM
zadan, could you put thi piece of crap on the other thread, I dont suggest posting new threads for the same tool is in the best interests of the Macedonian cause by providing him with free advertisingAnd while you're at it, take some other crap with it such as posts from the other tool (Mastika) :yes:

slovenec zrinski
07-11-2010, 03:45 PM
zadan ask yourself why the f'cking, dirty macedonians give him space to spread his opinions...oh...I guess itīs called democracy ;)

zadan
07-12-2010, 05:38 AM
julie, he is geting the advertising in the macedonian mediums. with all the respect for this forum, he doesnt need this forum for advertsing, the stupid macedonian media are giving this to him.

bill, i dont understand what you say can you be more clear please?

also, what do you think about the article in vreme, the contents?

zadan
07-12-2010, 06:14 AM
look what this dirty f***n jew is writing about jesus:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/jesus-christ-narcissist.html

sometime i am angry to hitler that he didnt finish the job with this people the jews that are puting their big ugly noses where they dont belong!

Bill77
07-12-2010, 06:41 AM
look what this dirty f***n jew is writing about jesus:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/jesus-christ-narcissist.html

sometime i am angry to hitler that he didnt finish the job with this people the jews that are puting their big ugly noses where they dont belong!Batka, pazi tro so shto gi vikash evrejte. ovie vremina e budalo i sa sve mozat da te sudat ili nekoj druga bela da se piknish. nali toa nejkam lujge da mislat deka ove forum e nejkoj neo natzi sme. i drugo ne si vo pravo da gi napajgash site evrej zbog eden chojek.

as for your question towards me, ignore it i was just having a go at someone else that i have been having a personal war with recently.

Bratot
07-12-2010, 07:35 AM
julie, he is geting the advertising in the macedonian mediums. with all the respect for this forum, he doesnt need this forum for advertsing, the stupid macedonian media are giving this to him.

bill, i dont understand what you say can you be more clear please?

also, what do you think about the article in vreme, the contents?

You don't seem to get it right.

Don't pay attention to him, ignore him, who do you think really takes him for real or what kind of influence he does?

With ignoring him he will become another marginalized szchizo and will stop exist.

look what this dirty f***n jew is writing about jesus:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/jesus-christ-narcissist.html

sometime i am angry to hitler that he didnt finish the job with this people the jews that are puting their big ugly noses where they dont belong!


Stop being primitive in reactions on cheap provokations.

This kind of behavior shouldn't be allowed here.

fyrOM
07-12-2010, 09:02 AM
Ignoring a lie is not always an option nor is jumping into a baited argument. This is why the government cannot itself get into every argument.

Instead the best course of action is for other organisations or individuals to shout down this idiot in the media while making it appear as an exercise in logic and economics and not of politics or nationalistic passion only. A degree of separation the government can enjoy while their opponents are clobbered in the media. The simplest action is to have the so called counter expert and a government friendly media outlet to preorganise their questions and answers to flow.

Local organisations or individuals to start with are best as it personalises the response to the local people and if need followed up by external organisations or individuals particularly ones with a respected reputation.

Its great to ignore idiots and sometimes this is the best course of action but monitoring them is absolutely necessary.

sf.
07-12-2010, 11:14 PM
look what this dirty f***n jew is writing about jesus:

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/jesus-christ-narcissist.html

sometime i am angry to hitler that he didnt finish the job with this people the jews that are puting their big ugly noses where they dont belong!

Any good you may have tried to accomplish has been undone by your vile racist attitudes and language. As such, I believe if allowed to continue, this would do damage to the MTO's reputation and I would highly recommend that the MTO administrators censure you over this aspect of your postings.

Risto the Great
07-12-2010, 11:28 PM
The MTO has its own opinion of Shmuel Vaknin and it has absolutely nothing to do with his religious persuasions. Zadan's opinion of Vaknin is his own and reflects on him, not this forum. Having said that, this kind of talk is inappropriate due to its racist connotations. Zadan, if you cannot refrain from using talk like "dirty jew", we will have no choice but to ban you from this forum.

Should you wish to call him a dirty meddler in Macedonian affairs who should have nothing to do with nor be entertained by Macedonia, we would be much more supportive.

sf.
07-12-2010, 11:40 PM
Thank you RTG. Otherwise, any case that would be built here against Vaknin could be dismissed as motivated by racism or worse, we could be dismissed as racists. Especially bad when we are fighting for the rights of Macedonians.

Edit: Pragmatism aside, I believe that most here don't condone such racist attitudes regardless.

Risto the Great
07-13-2010, 12:41 AM
Edit: Pragmatism aside, I believe that most here don't condone such racist attitudes regardless.

As a child, I never heard a bad word from my grandparents talking about the "Evrejtsi" in Macedonia. They were hard working and fair people according to them.

Bill77
07-13-2010, 01:00 AM
As a child, I never heard a bad word from my grandparents talking about the "Evrejtsi" in Macedonia. They were hard working and fair people according to them.There is a video Dimko posted a while ago regarding the deportation of the Jews from Bitola by the Nazis. The locals spoke highly of the Jews and how friendly and loyal they were who loved Macedonia. Its a shame about vaknin.

They were also very united and still are. Its something we can learn from them.

zadan
07-16-2010, 05:35 AM
of course, this is your forum and i will play with your rules. my sorry if i maker a mess, will not hapen again.

but, just for you to know:

1. vaknin is not only jew that is making big damage to macedonia. gidion sandel was falsifing credit cards; eitan oren made dokumentar about isac adijes in this movie adijes atacking macedonians that they stole jews property and only the albanians were helping them; owner of svedmilk steal all the mony of the poor milkmen and escape; jenni lebel write a book about holocast in macedonia and acuse macedonian that they were hapy about jews death and take all their property imediatly. examples only.

2. vaknin has big influence in macedonia especialy on the young students and in the stupid mediums. to put our heads under the blanket like children afriad of monsters is not solution. solution is to make petitia to thro him out of here.

3. israel as country think that macedonia is weak and canot fight islam and mujahedin. that is why israeli mosad want macedonia destroy and another state to fight islam in balkans.

Prolet
07-16-2010, 06:18 AM
Zadan, What about Macedonian Jew Iljas Spic who is having a movie made about him called treto poluvreme? Croatian Jew Branko Lustig will also be part of the film production.

We get along very well with the Macedonian Jews, they have done done alot for our country.

Bratot
07-16-2010, 09:06 AM
3. israel as country think that macedonia is weak and canot fight islam and mujahedin. that is why israeli mosad want macedonia destroy and another state to fight islam in balkans.

I think this was the most unfounded thinking and pretty much silly.

I'm on a feeling about your effort to generate negative attitude towards Isreali and Jewish people because of your personal impuls and pretty much unfounded conclussion.

Bettering Macedonian - Jewish collaboration it could streinghten both countries positions in respect to all threats, which is the only logical outcome.
If one would go against it without any solid logic or with your kind of silly unfounded thinking than I would be very doubtful of his intentions.

Soldier of Macedon
07-18-2010, 09:57 PM
Macedonians in general have nothing against Jews, it is only a few ignorant people (probably on both sides) that give such an impression from time to time, nothing could be further from the truth. Like RtG, I have never heard of the Jews being 'insulted' during discussions with my Macedonian family and friends, it is simply a non-issue, we certainly don't consider them enemies of any sort.

Where it concerns Vaknin, he is an idiot and therefore a disgrace to the Jews.

zadan
08-20-2010, 05:14 AM
ИАКО ВЛАДАТА ВЕТИ ДЕКА НЕМА ДА ЈА ПУМПА АДМИНИСТРАЦИЈАТА
Масовно вработување на државен товар

http://www.vreme.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1&EditionID=2100&ArticleID=146876

zadan
08-20-2010, 05:15 AM
http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=126431

Серија поскапувања ја тресат Македонија. По бензините и парното се зголемија и цените на прехранбените производи.

Frank
08-20-2010, 05:23 AM
Utility and Food increase every year at least in any Western Nation. Not to mention every 6 months prices will jump once Macedonia is part of the EU fold

Prolet
08-20-2010, 05:56 AM
From September the prices will go up, however Macedonia still has the cheapest food in Europe.

George S.
08-20-2010, 11:01 AM
prices is another thing not to join the EU.That;s why the greeks are buying stuff from macedonia it's cheaper.

Frank
08-21-2010, 06:12 PM
Macedonains are so un prepared are they they have no idea what awaits them being a member in the EU

George S.
08-22-2010, 03:10 AM
Well allready housing prices have gone up because everyone thinks of eu dollars.I think
macedonia's food prices are still attractive as a lot of people come over the border.Even albania's prices were cheaper when i was there a couple of years ago.

Buktop
08-22-2010, 05:02 AM
So prices go up, we say thank god they arent in EU, but salaries stay the same outside of EU... So actual cost goes up, and expendable income goes down

julie
08-22-2010, 06:14 AM
They cross the border from Lerin to Bitola to do their shopping and stock up with food, the citizens in the Republic have a mentality that once the Eu grants them golden entry, heaven will descend with riches upon them, even to the detriment of changing the Macedonian name. They dont realise the food prices will jump ten fold, and the heaven sent EU will cripple them to the point of starvation. The old man told me the last few months was there, the mentality is the EU are the golden saviours for RoM, may God help them.

Buktop
08-22-2010, 06:27 AM
They cross the border from Lerin to Bitola to do their shopping and stock up with food, the citizens in the Republic have a mentality that once the Eu grants them golden entry, heaven will descend with riches upon them, even to the detriment of changing the Macedonian name. They dont realise the food prices will jump ten fold, and the heaven sent EU will cripple them to the point of starvation. The old man told me the last few months was there, the mentality is the EU are the golden saviours for RoM, may God help them.

Do you have exact numbers on how many actually cross the border for shopping?

Do you know what the cost of food is compared to the average salary in Macedonia currently?

I am by no means advocating EU as the savior of Macedonia, but I want people to have an acurate picture of the situation now, and the potential situation in the future.

julie
08-22-2010, 06:35 AM
My old man has come back home from a very long holiday in RoM, he went over with my brother to show him our mothers birthplace in Dolno Kotori, he said prices were through the roof, went into the cafana for a drink and said 4 times as much for a drink then in RoM in Bitola. The people in the kafana, on hearing they are from Aus, apparently we stand out like sore thumbs stared at them both. "kako ste brakja" from dad and they started talking in Maco. He heard from them they cant afford to buy basic necessities in Aegean Macedonia, that they go over the border some 20 km away into Bitola and Tuesdays and Fridays in Bitola, dad said it is full from people over the border stocking up on food. I will ask him comparative prices, they were only there for the day so my brother would be able to see where his maternal bloodline is from

julie
08-22-2010, 06:44 AM
Buktop, my old man BEFORE he left early May to go for his trip was crossing himself with the Holy Trinity on the wonders of the EU, with me trying to argue the point with him to no avail.
He has returned from Rom after almost 4 months away saying the EU will cripple RoM, Macedonia will lose its name for entry, and they will not be able to eat out at the local restaurant for the equivalent of $8 Aus with drinks, and 3 courses.
The citizens hava an apathy where the name negotiations are, they dont seem to be bothered as long as the saviour EU and NATO is there.
they dont understand the financila and severe economic ramifications of this, nor repaying Hellarses debt.
They are also angry with the diaspora, they say we should have no right to be involved with anything to do with Macedonia.
Dad argued the point with them, they say we should be sending money from our money trees here, they need to be up to date with every piece of technology and have anger , that we should be living in RoM if we consider ourselves Macedonian
The old man, God Bless him, said the diaspora have worked very hard to establish Macedonian communities throughout the world so that the culture and language would be maintained and we have eery right to have a say, he obtained a Macedonian passport whilst there and was incredibly proud, he is quite elderly.

RoM does not care for the diaspora nor care for assistance, so we need to work even harder to convince them that our identity is non negotiable, that if they think life is tough now, it is paradise compared to what will happen if EU and NATO are their crowning glory

George S.
08-22-2010, 07:33 AM
I've just spoken to relative who runs a kitchen installation business in struga.They said due to the low prices they are getting heaps of interborder requests from neighbouring countries.Apparently it's like half price.

Risto the Great
08-22-2010, 05:23 PM
I've just spoken to relative who runs a kitchen installation business in struga.They said due to the low prices they are getting heaps of interborder requests from neighbouring countries.Apparently it's like half price.

That Is the point George. If Macedonia was in the EU, this would not happen. It is an excellent opportunity.

zadan
09-02-2010, 02:50 AM
Global Politician: Greek-Macedonian Name Issue Myths Debunked

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26576-macedonia-greece-name-dispute-albanians

fyrOM
09-02-2010, 07:51 AM
He is quite accurate on a lot of points.

zadan
09-02-2010, 12:41 PM
http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=126980

zadan
09-02-2010, 12:52 PM
Sitel TV Vaknin demystifies name issue

http://www.sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedonija/sem-vaknin-go-demistificiral-sporot-za-imeto

Makedonska_Kafana
09-02-2010, 01:56 PM
Sammy Vaknin is a Branko Crvenkovski mouth piece and ANYTHING he says about the name issue is coming straight from his financial sources .. Branko, MaNGO and Soros. Disregard this person when possible because his voice is not the official one of most Macedonians in the world and he has a personal interest in the bigger picture - a paid job.

Really hard to believe that he's Jewish and PRO ethnic cleansing - bolen e

- Samual Vaknin - Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), $elf-love

Venom
09-02-2010, 06:35 PM
This guy is still bitter about getting fired. Sam, it's been years mate. Let it go.

Risto the Great
09-02-2010, 08:19 PM
Greek-Macedonian Name Issue Myths Debunked

Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. - 9/2/2010

In the absence of the glare of the global media, its coverage and exposure, the fourth-rate diplomats that stand in for the International Community in Macedonia ineffectually cajole its government with thinly veiled threats, Cassandra-like apocalyptic scenarios, and verbal bribery. To achieve their aims, they propagate three myths (not to say deceptions):

Myth number 1: The conflict initiated by Greece is “normal” and not intractable

The truth is that the “Name Issue” cannot be resolved because the diametrically-opposing positions of the parties occupy the same semantic and geopolitical space. Both fear for their cohesion and identity should they compromise.

The Greek demand - that Macedonia and, consequently, the Macedonians change their collective (national) name - is unreasonable ab initio. Unreasonable demands cannot be rendered reasonable by being modified or amended. Greek “flexibility” and “reasonableness” are, therefore, smokescreens behind which lurk irrationality and extremism.

Sovereign polities should never succumb to blackmail and extortion: not because of ethical or moral considerations or matters of national pride, but because concessions only tend to enhance the insatiability of blackmailers and extortionists. Macedonia gave in to Greek blackmail once (with regards to its flag), yet this did not slake Greece’s thirst for more.

The name issue negotiations consume vast and scarce resources, especially in terms of human capital. Macedonia is a poor country and this Greek diversion is proving to be lethal as far as its economic development and geopolitical prospects go.

In truth, Macedonia is winning the diplomatic and public opinion battle the world over. More than 120 members of the United Nations recognize it by its constitutional name and not a week passes by without a commiserating op-ed in some prime medium in the West. Greece looks bad: an extortionate bully in the throes of economic mayhem and domestic terrorism. Faced with such an asymmetry in global sympathy, why should Macedonia be the one to throw in the towel?

Myth number 2: A lack of progress (read: Macedonian capitulation) on the name issue will foster inter-ethnic unrest and worse

Ardent, well-choreographed protestations aside, the Albanians in Macedonia ought to be delighted with the lack of progress on both NATO and EU accession. The overwhelming majority of Albanians in Western Macedonia are enmeshed in activities which can only be charitably described as “informal”. The Albanians are the engine that runs the grey and black and criminal economies in Macedonia. EU accession will put an abrupt stop to all these lucrative endeavours and unravel networks that took decades to build and maintain.

Furthermore, the Albanian insurgency in 2001 was the outcome of copious nods and winks (and dollops of materiel) on the part of the United States and, to a lesser extent, the EU. No such support, implicit or explicit, is to be found today: the International Community is firmly and irrevocably committed to the Ohrid Framework Agreement and will not allow the Albanians to use weapons to try to alter its generous terms.

Albanian posturing concerning the Macedonian procrastination with regards to the Name Issue has to do with internecine strife between the two big Albanian parties: DUI and DPA. They both leverage the name issue and threaten civil war in order to re-divide the spoils of government on all levels.

Myth number 3: EU Accession is Macedonia’s ticket to instant and sustained prosperity

The EU is in the throes of a life-threatening crisis and the entire enlargement project is in ever-growing doubt. Even if the EU were to emerge unscathed from this predicament, its harried officials still regard the Western Balkans as a cesspit, an Ottoman-Byzantine-Oriental Muslim-infested relic in the heart of an otherwise civilized, genteel, and Christian Europe (read: West). The more bigoted of the EU members are going to drag the negotiations with the likes of Macedonia as they have been doing with Turkey for decades now.

Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.

In the long-term, accession will bring with it sizable benefits in the transfer of technological knowledge and management skills and in encouraging foreign direct investment. But these welcome side-effects and by-products of EU membership depend crucially on an all-pervading internal transformation. Macedonians lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective. Their rampant individualism is malignant and they all perceive the state and any form of authority as potential and actual enemies.

So, why are Macedonians so keen on joining the EU?

Some of them hope to turn a quick profit as asset prices (shares, real-estate) react to the good news. Others can’t wait to abandon ship and join the throngs of economic immigrants from Bulgaria and Poland. Not one Macedonian I have met realizes the full implications of EU accession and not one of them gives a fig. They all perceive the EU as a “get-rich-quick” scheme.

A very reasonable article from Vaknin indeed.
I dispute one item:

Macedonians lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective. Their rampant individualism is malignant and they all perceive the state and any form of authority as potential and actual enemies.

What kind of "cultural background" deserves a state of its own? This is an absurd observation. The rest I probably agree with.

George S.
09-02-2010, 08:50 PM
the greeks are hoping the macedonians sell their soul or name for the eu dollar.

indigen
09-02-2010, 09:09 PM
A very reasonable article from Vaknin indeed.
I dispute one item:

Macedonians lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective. Their rampant individualism is malignant and they all perceive the state and any form of authority as potential and actual enemies.

What kind of "cultural background" deserves a state of its own? This is an absurd observation. The rest I probably agree with.
IMO, he has a point and if we had normal attributes of a MATURE NATION, which countless foreign ideological forces and their DOMESTIC VASSALS have worked hard to undermine and destroy via all the means available of state, religious, educational, cultural and media institutions and instruments, Macedonia and Macedonians would NOT find themselves in the political quagmire they are in. What MATURE NATION would allow a "Ramkoven dogovor" (2001 FA), amongst all the other capitualtions, to be a reward for armed terrorist action by, in the main, external TERRORISTS and their internal treasonous accomplices? Instead of applying the law of sedition to these enemies of the State and Macedonian Nation, we have them firmly established in all the institutions of the sate and in complete charge of between 25-33% of Macedonia (Republic of).


I think the following are good points, especially the first one:

1. Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedoniaís sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.



2. So, why are Macedonians so keen on joining the EU?

Some of them hope to turn a quick profit as asset prices (shares, real-estate) react to the good news. Others canít wait to abandon ship and join the throngs of economic immigrants from Bulgaria and Poland. Not one Macedonian I have met realizes the full implications of EU accession and not one of them gives a fig. They all perceive the EU as a ďget-rich-quickĒ scheme.

sf.
09-02-2010, 10:41 PM
This is the second time you've posted this sort of thing. Since these type of things are not unusual in Macedonia, do you have a purpose for these postings? Do you have any significant comment to make?

fyrOM
09-03-2010, 02:13 AM
Maybe items which crop up at intervals could have one thread each and updated accordingly as time goes by without proliferating the forum for the sake of neatness. I have tried to do this with a number of threads and people seem to use them.

Minor topics like this need not be bad in themselves as I find them usefull to keep up-to-date when I may not have had time to read online newspapers and as such the MTO has rapidly become my first port of call. As a mini online community with a shared interest we can each keep the MTO abrest of developments but like all information if unstructured becomes unwieldily.

fyrOM
09-03-2010, 02:37 AM
This topic is in

News and Politics
Greek-Macedonian Name Issue Myths Debunked
http://www.globalpolitician.com/2657...pute-albanians

Strange guy.

zadan
09-04-2010, 06:46 AM
finaly, global media not afraid of vaknin like the macedonian kukavici "jurnalist"

Financial Times: When narcissism becomes pathological

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/5ff67be2-b636-11df-a784-00144feabdc0.html

Download the article in PDF - click on this link:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/ftnarcissism.pdf

slovenec zrinski
09-04-2010, 08:24 AM
Yeah like he has tried to hide the fact that he is a narcissist????

Makedonska_Kafana
09-04-2010, 09:24 AM
If they ever publish his little black book of lies there will be some interesting names and telephone numbers.

Kurva za pari

Risto the Great
09-04-2010, 06:59 PM
Anyone else willing to critically evaluate this piece by Vaknin?

Frank
09-04-2010, 08:08 PM
Anyone else willing to critically evaluate this piece by Vaknin?

I would like to but hope a Forum member from the Republic can contribute to our debates. are the fuckers out there?

This is for them not us we dont need confincing.

julie
09-05-2010, 06:50 AM
the old man on his visit to RoM asked why is it so important to them to enter the EU, they have a misguided perception of great wealth with no effort, he explained to them prices would sky rocket and the standard of living wold drop further, he was told as a stranec to keep his nose out of it which made him livid, so he obtained a Macedonian passport to afford him the rights to vote to uphold our identity

ArMakedon
09-05-2010, 07:13 AM
I would like to but hope a Forum member from the Republic can contribute to our debates. are the fuckers out there?

This is for them not us we dont need confincing.

Sam Vaknin is a Jewish piece of shit.

Soldier of Macedon
09-05-2010, 07:38 AM
What does his nationality or ethnicity have to do with it? I suppose you're one of God's chosen 'Aryans' as opposed to the 'Jew', is that it?

julie
09-05-2010, 07:42 AM
ArrMakedon RTG asked for a critique of the analysis, and there are some ciritcal points which are aligned to the Macedonian cause, not a character crucifixion, and who cares if he is Jewish? What does that have to do with anything.
You dont seem to have much tolerance for many people

ArMakedon
09-05-2010, 10:25 AM
What does his nationality or ethnicity have to do with it? I suppose you're one of God's chosen 'Aryans' as opposed to the 'Jew', is that it?

Зошто не кажав нешто за Мартин Бернал или за Виктор Фридман? И тие се евреи нели? Последен пат на англиски: Aryans are mostly atheists. Christianity is a semitic religion.

ArrMakedon RTG asked for a critique of the analysis, and there are some ciritcal points which are aligned to the Macedonian cause, not a character crucifixion, and who cares if he is Jewish? What does that have to do with anything.
You dont seem to have much tolerance for many people

Точно, не сум толерантен кон најголем дел од грците, бугарите, србите, шиптарите и нивните платеници. Сем Вакнин е еден од нив.

George S.
09-05-2010, 10:34 AM
that's it kurva za pari is right,it goes hand in hand with all the high levels of corruption going on in macedonia.

Mr Brandy
09-05-2010, 01:24 PM
Sam Vaknin is a Jewish piece of shit.

What a stupid and irrelevant comment! No matter what he may or may not of done there is no need to say anything shameful like this.

Makedonska_Kafana
09-05-2010, 01:34 PM
What a stupid and irrelevant comment! No matter what he may or may not of done there is no need to say anything shameful like this.
Mr. Brandy tell that to the Jewish people who's families were slaughtered .. ti si budala kako Sammy. You DISGRACE human rights and should NEVER be involved again - stick with UMD zaspan.

SAM VAKNIN IS A RACIST PIG ALONG WITH PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM

Frank
09-05-2010, 06:36 PM
Sam Vaknin is a Jewish piece of shit.

Well 9/10 Mr Vankin speaks baloney and I am sure under our breaths we all think that of a Black and Jewish person inate Racism we all have so dont play the higher moral upper ground

Just best not to demostrate feelings in a crude manner like the quaote above that I think

Mr Brandy
09-05-2010, 07:18 PM
Mr. Brandy tell that to the Jewish people who's families were slaughtered .. ti si budala kako Sammy. You DISGRACE human rights and should NEVER be involved again - stick with UMD zaspan.

SAM VAKNIN IS A RACIST PIG ALONG WITH PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM

MK - nice of you to be defending AryanMakedon - that's all Macedonia needs more fucking racists.

Nobodies supporting Sam Vaknin - bre tikva - it's just bullshit to allow Macedonian white supremicist bullshit on a legitimate forum. That was my point.

Soldier of Macedon
09-05-2010, 09:26 PM
Sam Vaknin is a Jewish piece of shit.

Well 9/10 Mr Vankin speaks baloney and I am sure under our breaths we all think that of a Black and Jewish person inate Racism we all have so dont play the higher moral upper ground

Just best not to demostrate feelings in a crude manner like the quaote above that I think
Frank, are you normal? Or are you just a closet racist? I have friends who are Indian, Samoan, Sri Lankan and Ghanaean, do you think I walk around saying "black" this or "black" that insults under my breath? Fuck no. If you do, then you should be ashamed of yourself.

Soldier of Macedon
09-05-2010, 09:28 PM
White supremism, just like any other racism, has no place here. Anybody trying to push such an agenda at the MTO will be shown the door.

Prolet
09-05-2010, 10:04 PM
Frank, are you normal? Or are you just a closet racist? I have friends who are Indian, Samoan, Sri Lankan and Ghanaean, do you think I walk around saying "black" this or "black" that insults under my breath? Fuck no. If you do, then you should be ashamed of yourself.

SOM, I think Frank tried to quote ArMacedon but forgot to press the quote button as you can clearly see these were the same words used.

He even says its a quote:

Just best not to demostrate feelings in a crude manner like the quaote above that I think

Soldier of Macedon
09-05-2010, 10:32 PM
Prolet, keep your deliberate idiocy out of the discussion. ArMakedon didn't say:
am sure under our breaths we all think that of a Black and Jewish person inate Racism we all have so dont play the higher moral upper ground

From now on, your irrelevant and time-wasting interjections will be deleted.

Soldier of Macedon
09-05-2010, 10:36 PM
Зошто не кажав нешто за Мартин Бернал или за Виктор Фридман? И тие се евреи нели? Последен пат на англиски: Aryans are mostly atheists. Christianity is a semitic religion.
Sho posleden pat more, sho se inaetish badiala?

Rogi
09-05-2010, 11:35 PM
ArMakedon, you are a disgrace. I see there is nothing humane in you for the moderators to believe you may change your views and posts.

Frank, I'm trully disappointed to read that you have innate racist views toward 'Blacks and Jews', racism in all forms is nothing less than disgusting and no human, particularly no Macedonian should ever be the propagator of racism especially given the plight of the Macedonians because of it.

stravdziger
09-05-2010, 11:46 PM
Mr. Brandy tell that to the Jewish people who's families were slaughtered ..


So, what are you talking about? What did Vaknin have to do with the Holocaust?

stravdziger
09-05-2010, 11:49 PM
ArMakedon, you are a disgrace. I see there is nothing humane in you for the moderators to believe you may change your views and posts.

Frank, I'm trully disappointed to read that you have innate racist views toward 'Blacks and Jews', racism in all forms is nothing less than disgusting and no human, particularly no Macedonian should ever be the propagator of racism especially given the plight of the Macedonians because of it.

BRAVO!

Macedonians are the most tolerant people in the Balkans, and I hope they remain that way.

indigen
09-06-2010, 01:10 AM
BRAVO!

Macedonians are the most tolerant people in the Balkans, and I hope they remain that way.

And Macedonians are on the verge of extinction because the WORLD does NOT even accord them the basic right to self-determination. But what they are most TOLERANT of is their OWN NEGATION, i.e. slave/vassal mentality!!!

As for being "the most tolerant', I doubt it very much! How do you think a Black-American ("African-American") or someone, e.g. a male, of Black (Bantu) African racial heritage would be "TOLERATED" (in itself a racist concept vis-a-vis mutual racial and cultural respect) if married to a Macedonian and living in Ohrid, Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Shtip, and etc.? I am pretty sure they would be subject to the most extreme crude intolerant racism imaginable, without a doubt!

Secondly, IMHO, if anyone is racist it is the Jewish ZIONISTS (almost all Jews in the world) that are one of the most EXTREME examples of practising racists and national/religious chauvinists on this planet! Have a close look at the state of Israel and the apologist Jewish Diaspora that backs ALL (99.9% for 99.9% of the time) its policies against the Palestinians blindly.

indigen
09-06-2010, 01:16 AM
ArMakedon, you are a disgrace. I see there is nothing humane in you for the moderators to believe you may change your views and posts.

Frank, I'm trully disappointed to read that you have innate racist views toward 'Blacks and Jews', racism in all forms is nothing less than disgusting and no human, particularly no Macedonian should ever be the propagator of racism especially given the plight of the Macedonians because of it.

Rogi, please don't overreact mate and put things in perspective! Would you have responded in same way if someone said Dimitar Dimitrov is a Bulgar piece of shit or that Ali Ahmeti is a Shiptar piece of shit, which they certainly are?

Rogi
09-06-2010, 01:21 AM
As for being "the most tolerant', I doubt it very much! How do you think a Black-American ("African-American") or someone, e.g. a male, of Black (Bantu) African racial heritage would be "TOLERATED" (in itself a racist concept vis-a-vis mutual racial and cultural respect) if married to a Macedonian and living in Ohrid, Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Shtip, and etc.? I am pretty sure they would be subject to the most extreme crude intolerant racism imaginable, without a doubt!



You think so?

Here is one example of Simon Polikarp - Jimmy...

First black candidate for Macedonian Parliament
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/1357/52/


To be honest, it is becoming less and less uncommon as well - in fact a number of people from all over Africa have come to Macedonia and have married Macedonian men/women and have children with them, live in the villages and towns with them and are treated the same as everyone else.

I can attest to this with a further example, because I saw it for myself in my father's town where a Macedonian man had married a Nigerian woman and have a beautiful daughter, in her 20's, who was raised in Macedonia.

Rogi
09-06-2010, 01:30 AM
Rogi, please don't overreact mate and put things in perspective! Would you have responded in same way if someone said Dimitar Dimitrov is a Bulgar piece of shit or that Ali Ahmeti is a Shiptar piece of shit, which they certainly are?

I wouldn't care in the slightest how those individuals are referred to, in fact I'd even say that would be too generous of a description.

But I don't think that saying all Greeks, or all Bulgarians, or all Serbs, or all Albanians or all [Insert Nation Here] are [Insert Derogatory Term Here] is right at all. I certainly don't feel that to be true.

indigen
09-06-2010, 01:43 AM
I wouldn't care in the slightest how those individuals are referred to, in fact I'd even say that would be too generous of a description.

But I don't think that saying all Greeks, or all Bulgarians, or all Serbs, or all Albanians or all [Insert Nation Here] are [Insert Derogatory Term Here] is right at all. I certainly don't feel that to be true.

I agree about all that but I don't think ArMacedon stated that and Frank was just trying to rationalise what we may think, and to a certain extent he is correct when relating to the general mak population. Correct me if I missed something posted in this thread (or elsewhere).

Secondly, one should allow for certain amount of venting room against our enemies from time to time and overlook non-PC terminology or designations.

So pochit,
I.

indigen
09-06-2010, 02:14 AM
You think so?

Here is one example of Simon Polikarp - Jimmy...

First black candidate for Macedonian Parliament
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/1357/52/
That may be so, him being a candidate and whatever else he is, but I stand by what I said. I remember a recent case where black members of a European (I think English?) football team were subject to open and very crude racist abuse (vocal racist taunting) at a match played either in Skopje or one of the provincial stadiums and I also remember an interview (in the last 10 years or so) with an African man married to a Macedonian woman (it may even have been this same guy) who was explaining his experiences with the ingrained racism in provincial Macedonia (or Macedonia in general).


To be honest, it is becoming less and less uncommon as well - in fact a number of people from all over Africa have come to Macedonia and have married Macedonian men/women and have children with them, live in the villages and towns with them and are treated the same as everyone else.
I like to believe you but I still think racism against non-Europeans, and especially blacks/Africans, would be rampant in Macedonia, and more so in provincial towns and villages.

I can attest to this with a further example, because I saw it for myself in my father's town where a Macedonian man had married a Nigerian woman and have a beautiful daughter, in her 20's, who was raised in Macedonia.
Mate, racism is rampant in Australia and the rest of the West but ones needs to know how to identify it. About 10 to 15 years ago there was a Black female news presenter on the ABC (English father and either African or Jamaican/West Indian mother) who grew up thinking she was white (she looked black) and Australians made her realise she was not white and she ended up having a nervous breakdown because of it. If subtle racism was not so pevalent in the West/USA, IMO, you would not see so many African-American women, especially ones aspiring to some status in their society, using damaging chemical to have UNNATURAL-LOOKING straight hair, which infuriates Africanists and adherents of Black Consciousness.

Rogi
09-06-2010, 02:34 AM
I think you're perhaps talking more about self-denigration / self-racism and conformism in the above.

In any case, this brings me to the story of 'When the Axe came into the Forest', a story that I believe is so profound and wish everyone, particularly Macedonians, would read it... I posted it here some time ago:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=24427

indigen
09-06-2010, 02:52 AM
I think you're perhaps talking more about self-denigration / self-racism and conformism in the above.

You can do your own research on the cause and effect of that phenomena but I doubt that many of those career black women would get the chance to succeed if they started wearing dreadlocks and Afro and other traditional African hairstyles, which many are absolutely stunning! :-)

As for Macedonian racism at its worst, see the following:


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/30/article-0-0A9F14EF000005DC-763_468x332.jpg
Liverpool's Europa League win over FK Rabotnicki tainted by racist taunts
By Sportsmail Reporter Last updated at 9:51 AM on 30th July 2010

Liverpool's Europa League opponents FK Rabotnicki could face action if UEFA authorities are alerted to an incident of racist crowd behaviour.

Pictures have emerged from Liverpool's 2-0 over the Macedonian side in Skopje of supporters directing monkey taunts towards the English side's players.

Liverpool started the third qualifying round tie at the Philip II Stadium with two black players in their side in double goalscorer David Ngog and 19-year-old winger David Amoo.

Macedonian football has had a problem with racist behaviour in the past. In September 2003, England players Emile Heskey, Sol Campbell and Ashley Cole were all the subject of abuse in an international against Macedonia at the same stadium.

An English flag was also burned and European governing body UEFA later fined the Football Federation of Macedonia £10,730.


At the double: Ngog scored either side of half-time in Liverpool's 2-0 win


Meanwhile Daniel Agger lauded the performance of double goalscorer Ngog.

'We have got to give David credit for the two goals. He took them very well Ė it was a very good performance,' the Liverpool defender said.

'He was there in the right place at the right time, which is what all good strikers do. He is a good player and has the qualities but he knows that he still has a bit to learn.

'I know that he works hard every day but if he continues to work hard then he will come on a long way. But he has to keep working hard, as every one of us is doing, if he wants to get there.'

http://www.redcafe.net/f7/liverpools-europa-league-win-over-fk-rabotnicki-tainted-racist-taunts-304029/

Soldier of Macedon
09-06-2010, 03:00 AM
..........in Ohrid, Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Shtip, and etc.? I am pretty sure they would be subject to the most extreme crude intolerant racism imaginable, without a doubt!
What on earth are you talking about? What evidence, aside from isolated cases, do you have? You make it sound like people will hurl stones at them as they walk on the street, is that what you think will happen? Where are your statistics? On what do you base your opinion, football hooligans? Don't try and justify this pathetic view based on your own xenophobia, and don't look for excuses to cover up the racism of others. If you are one of those people that utters racial slurs under their breath, then you're a sad little weasel and a huge disappointment.

I hate racists. One's race should never be the determining factor on how they are perceived.

indigen
09-06-2010, 03:19 AM
What on earth are you talking about? What evidence, aside from isolated cases, do you have? You make it sound like people will hurl stones at them as they walk on the street, is that what you think will happen? Where are your statistics? On what do you base your opinion, football hooligans? Don't try and justify this pathetic view based on your own xenophobia, and don't look for excuses to cover up the racism of others. If you are one of those people that utters racial slurs under their breath, then you're a sad little weasel and a huge disappointment.

SOM, you don't know me, so don't make presumptions or assumptions about how racist I may or may not be. I am pretty sure my anti-racist deeds and credentials are as good, if not better, than most or any MTO member here!

Repeated crude racist taunting at international sports matches is a good indicator, IMO, of the general malaise inflicting Macedonian society. Crude ignorant racist attitude amongst Macedonians in regards to Africans is present even amongst the ruling circles. Talk to people and see what they say about Africans and how they perceive them. I did not say anything about physical attacks or refusing service to anyone.

Prolet
09-06-2010, 03:45 AM
You think so?

Here is one example of Simon Polikarp - Jimmy...

First black candidate for Macedonian Parliament
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/1357/52/


To be honest, it is becoming less and less uncommon as well - in fact a number of people from all over Africa have come to Macedonia and have married Macedonian men/women and have children with them, live in the villages and towns with them and are treated the same as everyone else.

I can attest to this with a further example, because I saw it for myself in my father's town where a Macedonian man had married a Nigerian woman and have a beautiful daughter, in her 20's, who was raised in Macedonia.

Rogi, During the SFRJ era Tito formed a partnership with the African nations and there were many students who came to Macedonia to study and there were some who stayed, got married and live in Macedonia even till today. Jimmy is a good example, he works in a hospital with under privileged and handicapped children. In Skopje there are still people from Africa mainly Nigeria,Cameroon and Egypt who speak perfect Macedonian.

Bratot
09-06-2010, 04:08 AM
Repeated crude racist taunting at international sports matches is a good indicator, IMO, of the general malaise inflicting Macedonian society.

You must be joking!

How can a football hooligan represent a standard of a general society?

This is not your first such appearance on this Forum, regardless of who you are behind this forum.

Bill77
09-06-2010, 04:46 AM
Repeated crude racist taunting at international sports matches is a good indicator, I don't think so. Look at the local sporting clubs such as Pelister and Vardar. Pelister supporters sing a song, where they pray to god another earth quake hits Skopje i cel grad da se rushi. While Vardar supporters probably have their own chant towards Bitola. The end of the day, i am sure they are not anti Macedonian or truly wish for these things to happen. Its mob mentality and sporting events momentarily brings out the worst in people. This sort of stuff happens in every country in the world and hooligans should not be an example to use in smearing a nationality's name.

Talk to people and see what they say about Africans and how they perceive them.On a lighter side,
Girls have the same perception of me, but i would modestly say its only average size realy :40:

julie
09-06-2010, 06:56 AM
FRANK
"black"
My first husband Sri Lankan, we are great mates now and split many years ago
I dont like you.
I have 3 sons, my 14 year old baby is dark skinned
go to hell

How can I have intolerance to my flesh and blood born of me he calls himself Macedonian?
What right do you have to speak in that manner? My boys are half Sri Lankan

I dont HATE Greeks , bulgarians, or anyone.
My mums sister married a Bulgarian, my beautiful 1st cousins are half/half, how can I hate them?

You should think, and incidentally, I have Greek friends who love ma and respect me, its the grkomani and MPO bugorami that we need to watch

As for ArMakedon, YOU are a disgusting piece of shit, a rascist intolerant white supremacist who does not belong here, how dare you

How is it Macedonians should be seen as intolerant of minorities when they are fighting for recognition, you are one rotten apple, we are not like that on this forum, go burn in your neo nazi hell

za stramota

Risto the Great
09-06-2010, 07:17 AM
Anyway .... I give Vaknin 9 out of 10 for his observations in this particular piece of text.

julie
09-06-2010, 07:19 AM
RTG, regardless of who or what Sam is, I agree with what I have read in that text

Bratot
09-06-2010, 07:52 AM
Sam likes to play, as he used to call it, an "intelectual flirt" to have you disapointed after he gets your attention.

Don't be easily fooled, we have seen his role in the "open society" media propagating a name change.

Let's wait for the next article of his.

Prolet
09-06-2010, 09:02 AM
You must be joking!

How can a football hooligan represent a standard of a general society?

This is not your first such appearance on this Forum, regardless of who you are behind this forum.

That was the British Media having a go because in 2003 when Macedonia played England our fans burned an English Flag and it was the first time their flag has even been burned in a stadium so from there on they always accuse us of racism. Rabotnicki has 3 black Brazilian players in their side and Wandair Dos Santos who is also Brazilian (Dark Skinned) is their captain, its not like our people havnt seen a dark skinned person before and if that was racism then surly UEFA would have punished the club for racism which they didnt, they didnt even investigate the matter the English Media like to have a go at us and tag us as racists which is not the case.

zadan
09-06-2010, 09:41 AM
belive me i have real doctorat in vaknin. he is not wanting mony, he give lectchures, advises, seminars, articls, everyting free, he never take mony in makedonija. he even work for minister of helth free for one year with no taking of any mony! this is why many peoples here suspicious he that he is a spion. his game is not mony, he love poewer, he want to have poewer and he hate makedonians very much even he is maried to a makedonoka. he is wanting to use the poewer to destry makedonia, such very big hate he has, i don't kno why. his last article was very big positiv suprise to me but even in this aricle he is saying that makedonians shud not have country. in sitel tv that made him the bel bumbar!!!

Makedonska_Kafana
09-06-2010, 09:56 AM
that's it kurva za pari is right,it goes hand in hand with all the high levels of corruption going on in macedonia.
He's ANTI VMRO and Gruevski and FULLY supports Atina on ethnic cleansing Macedonians - dusman e Sammy Vaknin - a jew missing a few

Daskalot
09-06-2010, 12:38 PM
belive me i have real doctorat in vaknin. he is not wanting mony, he give lectchures, advises, seminars, articls, everyting free, he never take mony in makedonija. he even work for minister of helth free for one year with no taking of any mony! this is why many peoples here suspicious he that he is a spion. his game is not mony, he love poewer, he want to have poewer and he hate makedonians very much even he is maried to a makedonoka. he is wanting to use the poewer to destry makedonia, such very big hate he has, i don't kno why. his last article was very big positiv suprise to me but even in this aricle he is saying that makedonians shud not have country. in sitel tv that made him the bel bumbar!!!

Zadan, it looks like you are on purpose writing/speaking bad English, why do you do it?

ArMakedon
09-06-2010, 01:42 PM
ArMakedon, you are a disgrace. I see there is nothing humane in you for the moderators to believe you may change your views and posts.

Frank, I'm trully disappointed to read that you have innate racist views toward 'Blacks and Jews', racism in all forms is nothing less than disgusting and no human, particularly no Macedonian should ever be the propagator of racism especially given the plight of the Macedonians because of it.

Си ја имаш мувата на капата и не можиш да ми одговориш на Македонски. Не си го познаваш мајчиниот јазик :oops: а се осудуваш да ме наречиш "disgrace". :fuk2:


Sho posleden pat more, sho se inaetish badiala?
Како очекуваш да комуницирам со Македонци освен на македонски? Кој си има проблем со мајчиниот јазик нека си земи часови.

stravdziger
09-06-2010, 02:52 PM
And Macedonians are on the verge of extinction because the WORLD does NOT even accord them the basic right to self-determination. But what they are most TOLERANT of is their OWN NEGATION, i.e. slave/vassal mentality!!!


Macedonians have been in much worst spots in our history than today, and now we are actually winning. Of course, now is a dangerous time, but presenting it as being "on the verge of extinction" is a big lie used to fan the flames of ultra-nationalism and hatred of other people. Actually, this is the real threat to Macedonia, a slippery slope. Racism, intolerance... no, these are not the answers. These are actually traps.



As for being "the most tolerant', I doubt it very much! How do you think a Black-American ("African-American") or someone, e.g. a male, of Black (Bantu) African racial heritage would be "TOLERATED" (in itself a racist concept vis-a-vis mutual racial and cultural respect) if married to a Macedonian and living in Ohrid, Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Shtip, and etc.? I am pretty sure they would be subject to the most extreme crude intolerant racism imaginable, without a doubt!


Ok, I can buy that to some degree. But remember, I said that Macedonians are the tolerant people in the Balkans, not the whole world. Your black friend who went to live in a Balkan town practically anywhere else on the Balkans would likely have a harder time of it, I suspect.



Secondly, IMHO, if anyone is racist it is the Jewish ZIONISTS (almost all Jews in the world) that are one of the most EXTREME examples of practising racists and national/religious chauvinists on this planet! Have a close look at the state of Israel and the apologist Jewish Diaspora that backs ALL (99.9% for 99.9% of the time) its policies against the Palestinians blindly.

Hmm.. so does that mean we should act more like Jews, in your humble opinion? Or are you saying we should be more careful about backing racist policies in Macedonia?

Being racist or hateful of other peoples is not going to help our situation, sorry.

Prolet
09-06-2010, 02:56 PM
ArMakedon, I can assure that Rogi speaks Macedonian very well infact both of you are from the same city. There is no need to say such things, you dont need to flex your muscles here. Some of us here are 2nd and 3rd generation Macedonians, so its not easy to adapt to the language, but you are right we should be putting more effort in speaking our mother tongue.

Risto the Great
09-06-2010, 06:29 PM
Sam likes to play, as he used to call it, an "intelectual flirt" to have you disapointed after he gets your attention.

Don't be easily fooled, we have seen his role in the "open society" media propagating a name change.

Let's wait for the next article of his.

There is no doubt we have been more than disappointed with other articles from him. Having said that, we should not ignore text of relevance. We will see whats new from the Shmu next time.

Rogi
09-06-2010, 07:28 PM
ArMakedon, ti mene ke mi solis pamet? Nemas so sto da mi se sprotivstavis pa si tropna nekoja glupost za majciniot jazik?

Jas ne si imam rabota so nerazbrani tvrdoglavci 'ko vas, ti pretstavuvas se koe nie Makedoncite se borime protiv. Istorijata, duri i zivata memorija a i segasnosta ni pokazuva, i ni dokazuva, kolku sme bile maceni kako narod, od tie so tvoite glupavi i gadni ideali.

zadan
09-07-2010, 05:02 AM
find this more on vaknin:

SUNDAY TIMES

SUNDAY TIMES The monster in the mirror

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/relationships/article2439812.ece

i am not insult you for your catastrofa makedonski jazik, dont insult me for my bad english.

zadan
09-08-2010, 04:23 AM
even vaknin hate the jews, see this:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/jews.html

http://www.youtube.com/vakninmusings

zadan
09-08-2010, 04:32 AM
vaknin inform on his list that Sonce TV, the big patriotic televizija in makedonija is invited him for half hour (!) intervie in "muabeti".

SHAME OF YOU, SONCE TV!!!!

DUBL SHAME OF YOU, SLAVKO MANGOVSKI!!!!!

how you invite hater of makedonijan people, bigest enemy of makedonija to be on patriotic televizija like you????

how you invited psicopat to talk to public? you did not see the movie about him i, psychopath????

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/

you dont kno that this prevarant and izmamnik "doctorat" is falsificat from diploma mill? even he admit it on the film and here:

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/rebuttal.html

you dont kno that he is righting against the tatkovina and is geting mony from greeks?

you dont kno that he is ex-criminal and was in prison in izrael for izmama?

you don't read the financial times - see in this forum the link???

you kno eveyting. how much he pay you to put him on your televizija?

PREDAVNICI!!! PRODADENI DUSI!!! NOT SONCE TV BUT SONCOGLEDI TV!!!

ArMakedon
09-08-2010, 05:01 AM
armakedon, ti mene ke mi solis pamet? Nemas so sto da mi se sprotivstavis pa si tropna nekoja glupost za majciniot jazik?

Jas ne si imam rabota so nerazbrani tvrdoglavci 'ko vas, ti pretstavuvas se koe nie makedoncite se borime protiv. Istorijata, duri i zivata memorija a i segasnosta ni pokazuva, i ni dokazuva, kolku sme bile maceni kako narod, od tie so tvoite glupavi i gadni ideali.

Баш затоа бе Роги, баш затоа. До кога ќе ја наведнуваме главата да не не пресечи јатаганот. Наведната глава Сонце не гледа а знајш шо е Сонцето за нас Македонците.

Phoenix
09-08-2010, 07:18 AM
perhaps some of your concerns will be addressed in the interview...

Makedonska_Kafana
09-08-2010, 09:54 AM
Phoenix, how do you even know why they invited him? They may expose him for being a racist Jew? Sammy, has been famous for pulling out of PRO MACEDONIAN EVENTS at the last minute if he gets spooked and then will post "i received death threats" BS

I hope they rake him over HOT coals twice - hypocrite bastard!

NOTE

Sammy put the "Q" in the word Queen .. what a drama he is

Risto the Great
09-08-2010, 05:42 PM
I would much prefer he is interviewed and subjected to the scrutiny of the viewers than simply getting paid by the Macedonian government as a consultant. I look forward to the interview, and I hope the tough questions are asked.

Makedonska_Kafana
09-08-2010, 06:25 PM
I would much prefer he is interviewed and subjected to the scrutiny of the viewers than simply getting paid by the Macedonian government as a consultant. I look forward to the interview, and I hope the tough questions are asked.
This is a great chance to put an end to Brankoff and his puppets once and for all - attack mode, a non Macedonian has ZERO say in this entire matter and he must be treated like the "dusman" he is.

Makedonska_Kafana
09-08-2010, 06:33 PM
perhaps some of your concerns will be addressed in the interview...
Where did you find the information, link?

Phoenix
09-08-2010, 06:35 PM
Phoenix, how do you even know why they invited him? They may expose him for being a racist Jew? Sammy, has been famous for pulling out of PRO MACEDONIAN EVENTS at the last minute if he gets spooked and then will post "i received death threats" BS

I hope they rake him over HOT coals twice - hypocrite bastard!

NOTE

Sammy put the "Q" in the word Queen .. what a drama he is

That was exactly my point...
I don't know why he was invited but I have faith that the hard questions will be asked, I think your beef should be with zadan, not me...

Makedonska_Kafana
09-08-2010, 06:59 PM
Samual Vaknin

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2332/samualvaknin.jpg

Big Bad Sven
09-09-2010, 02:12 AM
I agree with a lot of the points that Vankin makes, but obviously not all of them.

I agree with Sam that Greases demand on Macedonia to change its name and identity is all a smokescreen, that is really hiding more sinister and evil motives. But then again all sane and self-respecting Macedonians already knew this.
He makes a very good point when using the flag changing debacle, and how grease wanted more from Macedonia. As I have said many times on this forum, Macedonia has already made enough ďconcessionsĒ. Its time for Grease to be reasonable and give something up (which it hasnít).

I agree with Vankin that slowly we are winning the ďname gameĒ. Every year it seems like a country recognizes Macedonia. All Macedonia has to do is keep on improving and continue to forge strong ties internationally and it will win eventually. Right now the useless countries like Grease, Albania, Serbia or Bulgaria cant touch Macedonia. They can only win by doing the things that work in the past, infiltrate Macedonia and brainwash Macedonians into sell outs or self-haters that think they are doomed. Right now Macedonia/Macedonians are their own worst enemies. No one can force Macedonia to change its identity, only the Macedonians can do this. Thatís why its important that Macedonians stay strong and not fall for cheap lies of prosperity and quick wealth of joining the EU.

I strongly agree with point 2, and had to have a bit of laugh when I read that point. The shiptars are THE ďblack and grey marketsĒ in Macedonia. Every one knows this, but the PC brigade in the west wont allow people to state this or Macedonians to make this public. Have to give credit to vankin for stating this. But the puzzling thing here is that the shiptars are putting extreme pressure on Macedonia to do give up what ever it takes to join the wonderful and magical entity called the EU. Looks like the shiptar peasants are just as dumb and confused as the Macedonians and donít realise what they loose when they get into the EU. Perhaps joining the EU would be a good thing as it would force shiptars to give up a life of crime and actually work for once, and if they still want the life of crime they could always move to Kosovo (hopefully).

I agree with most of point 3 as well. The EU doesnít respect or want the remaining Balkan countries, and most importantly it doesnít even respect Macedonian people, but we have all known this. I also agree that Macedonians are doing better living out of the EU then some countries living in the EU. Just look at all the grks coming to Macedonia to get cheaper foods and products. The ironic thing here is that if Macedonia was a EU member today, it would be forced to support its number one enemy grease both financially and economically. I would rather have Macedonian money spent in Macedonia thank you very much, not sent to a bunch of floggers that donít even respect as equals.

Finally the sad truth Vankin states is that a lot Macedonians are still eager to sell out there souls to join the broke and corrupt EU. He is 100% correct in saying Macedonians are only thinking short term, and chasing the ďquick moneyĒ. It has been a problem that has unfortunately affected Macedonians for last 100 years. Why cant Macedonians open their eyes and see the pathetic state of Grease, or that Bulgarians or Romanians are still leaving their countries in droves even after EU membership. The Croatians are the smart ones to realise the price of joining the EU is not worth it, when will the Macedonian people wake up?

zadan
09-09-2010, 05:01 AM
vaknin has "secret" list and i am lurking with diferent name, he dont kno that i am geting al the mesages. few days ago he right that he had intervie with sonce tv and it was very friendly and with out censura and he atack makedonian mentality and caracter and say that makedonija has no elite, everyone is teski seljaci, that makedonians not redy to have own state (drzava) and are very primitive and that slavko mangovski tell him this is the trut. plus vaknin publish almos everyting in his twitter facebook friendfeed:

http://www.twitter.com/samvaknin

http://www.friendfeed.com/samvaknin

http://www.facebook.com/samvaknin

zadan
09-09-2010, 05:02 AM
btw, these fotos of vaknin in prison are falsificated: izrael do not use latin script, only hebrew letters. also he is definatly more than 166 cm, i see him in lecture. no need to use falsificat against vaknin, he is enoug stupid to destry himself with own words.

zadan
09-09-2010, 05:34 AM
http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2010/september02_e.asp

"Macedonains lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective. Their rampant individualism is malignant and they all perceive the state and any form of authority as potential and actual enemies."

also

"Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is."

zadan
09-09-2010, 05:37 AM
you dont understan this guy, he want poewer and to be famos, not mony. he never take mony, not even from goverment. now he work 1 yer for ministerstvo za zdravstvo for no mony!!! just to be in the media.

Makedonska_Kafana
09-09-2010, 08:03 AM
btw, these fotos of vaknin in prison are falsificated: izrael do not use latin script, only hebrew letters. also he is definatly more than 166 cm, i see him in lecture. no need to use falsificat against vaknin, he is enoug stupid to destry himself with own words.



The prison photo is straight from CBC television so speak to the producers. (CBC logo bottom right)
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/

zadan
09-09-2010, 08:16 AM
why you react so agresive, makedonska kafana? i didnt do anyting bad to you.

i see the movi maybe ten times, but the fotos are fotoshop, not real. i see vaknin in realty. plus he was arest in 1990, not 1995, etc. this are falsificats. many information in the movi is complet bulshit (vaknin iq, that he was rich, have his own airoplane, and other gluposti).

Makedonska_Kafana
09-09-2010, 08:23 AM
why you react so agresive, makedonska kafana? i didnt do anyting bad to you.

i see the movi maybe ten times, but the fotos are fotoshop, not real. i see vaknin in realty. plus he was arest in 1990, not 1995, etc. this are falsificats. many information in the movi is complet bulshit (vaknin iq, that he was rich, have his own airoplane, and other gluposti).
My point is that they were used by CBC and I have no doubt that he's a criminal, they research first.

Rogi
09-09-2010, 09:49 AM
I generally and most always quite vehemently disagree with what Sam Vaknin has to say, or write.

However, in many respects, I find it difficult to disagree with the above two quotes when considering the amateurish nature of Macedonian politics and Government, corruption and privatisation over the last 20 years and some of the despicable things that the Macedonians have brought upon themselves (Flag change, Interim Accord, Framework Agreement, modification of electoral boundaries to give the Albanian minority the balance of power, inability to recognise when an unattainable carrot is being dangled, etc) - I however disagree with the assessment that the Macedonians lack the cultural background to have a state of their own, I think that is an absurd statement in every aspect.

Though, I also particularly agree with the second quote, Macedonia is not ready for EU accession, in fact EU accession would make Macedonia so uncompetitive that it would destroy most industry and the entire agricultural sector.

MHRMI
09-09-2010, 10:40 AM
It was put on the site by mistake. It was removed.

zadan
09-09-2010, 10:57 AM
i always say he is criminal, what is new? but he was arest in 1990 and the fotos are falsificat. i kno more about vaknin then cbc and you together. you canot hate vaknin more then me and you didnt invest 7 yers of reserch about him like i did. you can believ what i tell you more then cbc or any other else.

zadan
09-09-2010, 11:01 AM
MHMRI, pleas talk to yor frend slavko mangovski not to show intervie with vaknin on sonce tv. please, please read this:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4277

vaknin is ataking makedonija and makedonian pepol, call them teski seljaci and mangovski say yes this is the trut!!! what hapen to this patriot and to soncogled tv??? pleas, please stop this katastrofa!

ArMakedon
09-09-2010, 02:12 PM
Ние на ја сакаме ЕУ, си ја сакаме сам обединета Македонија

Makedonska_Kafana
09-09-2010, 02:53 PM
i always say he is criminal, what is new? but he was arest in 1990 and the fotos are falsificat. i kno more about vaknin then cbc and you together. you canot hate vaknin more then me and you didnt invest 7 yers of reserch about him like i did. you can believ what i tell you more then cbc or any other else.
Want to be on CBC to expose Samual Vaknin? Just because he's married doesn't mean ANYTHING .. it's only for "show" and he may really be a VERY confused homosexual.

People have been known to hide behind other's, not news.

SAM VAKNIN - ONE LIE AFTER ANOTHER (SEE CRVENKOVSKI & GLIGOROV)

slovenec zrinski
09-10-2010, 01:19 AM
What a nazified macedonian sun, Arian Macedonian, pretty ugly if you ask me. I canīt for the life of me understand Macedonians, or Slovenians, or Poles, or Russians that are nazis. It so... contradictory.

Phoenix
09-10-2010, 02:18 AM
What a nazified macedonian sun, Arian Macedonian, pretty ugly if you ask me. I canīt for the life of me understand Macedonians, or Slovenians, or Poles, or Russians that are nazis. It so... contradictory.

It makes more sense to me that the Catholics are involved but I don't understand the involvement of the Orthodox Christians...just take a look over at 'stormfront', some of the most vile characters are the serbs and the 'greeks'...

Daskalot
09-10-2010, 02:31 AM
What a nazified macedonian sun, Arian Macedonian, pretty ugly if you ask me. I canīt for the life of me understand Macedonians, or Slovenians, or Poles, or Russians that are nazis. It so... contradictory.

I find disgusting, ArMakedon are you a nazi?

zadan
09-10-2010, 02:56 AM
vaknin is be in nigeria in 1983 (coup), russia 1998 (rubel colapse), makedonija 1996-7 (invent gruevski who is be zero before vaknin find him and publish with him dialogs), grate britan and usa 1983-5 (iran-contra afair), 1991-5 serbia (advisor to mks and beobanka, milosevic tools). in his articl he admit to work with mossad, shbtai kalmanovic. he is dark figure. all international media write about him and intervie him and even stupid makedonian media. dont try to understand vaknin like some other peoples.

zadan
09-10-2010, 03:03 AM
vaknin also say in intervie to sonce tv makedonijans are not nation and have no future as drzava, they only take never give. big hate and mangovski and sonce tv will publish this gjubre!

zadan
09-10-2010, 03:04 AM
vaknin also say in intervie to sonce tv makedonijans are not nation and have no future as drzava, they only take never give. big hate and mangovski and sonce tv will publish this gjubre!

slovenec zrinski
09-10-2010, 04:17 AM
Actually it makes no sense at all regardess of religion. Poles and Slovenians were victims of Germany and Nazism as well as the Russians.

julie
09-10-2010, 05:32 AM
zadan, I dont believe the EU will achieve anything positive for RoM aside putting them in massive debt to pay for Grk debt, and cause a further erosion on their living standards.

Makedonska_Kafana
09-10-2010, 07:30 AM
vaknin also say in intervie to sonce tv makedonijans are not nation and have no future as drzava, they only take never give. big hate and mangovski and sonce tv will publish this gjubre!
Did the Sonce interview take place? If not, when is it?

ArMakedon
09-10-2010, 11:19 AM
i find disgusting, armakedon are you a nazi?

Дефинирај наци?

actually it makes no sense at all regardess of religion. Poles and slovenians were victims of germany and nazism as well as the russians.

Словенците? Не би рекол. И зошто се враќате пред 65-70 години?

vaknin also say in intervie to sonce tv makedonijans are not nation and have no future as drzava, they only take never give. Big hate and mangovski and sonce tv will publish this gjubre!

Јас кажав што мислев за тоа ѓубре

Daskalot
09-10-2010, 04:07 PM
Дефинирај наци?


Eve ti edna definacija; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Dali veruvash vo "bela sila"?

Makedonska_Kafana
09-10-2010, 04:09 PM
Toj e mnogu golema zena .. 357lbs

Once I arrive ANYWHERE she goes into her alias mode

Pelister
09-13-2010, 12:22 AM
You know it is hard for Macedonians to be geniunely tolerant all the time while the memories of their dead ancestors are being erased, or worse, denied.

The whole thing can be very poisonous, but that is the lot many of us have been given.

Vaknin is just another cog in the colonial machine that has been bent on our anhialation by degrees, for over a century now.

I can't blame Macedonians for wanting to feel pride and power in their name and their heritage - its not an invented heritage, its not an appropirated heritage that rightly belonged to someone else - we did not appropriate the term 'Macedonian' in the same way that the New Greeks had appropriated the term 'Hellene'. I hate the whole thing to be honest - Let Macedonians say what they want, and if they feel pride let them - hell, we have been silenced, we have been shut down, our grievances blocked, and wishes and demands ignored. My fault is that I probably cut Macedonians too much slack - but I am not prepared to say they are racists, because they have never hurt anyone and are not hurting anyone.

indigen
09-13-2010, 12:49 AM
http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2010/september02_e.asp

"Macedonains lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective. Their rampant individualism is malignant and they all perceive the state and any form of authority as potential and actual enemies."

also

"Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is."

I may be wrong but I will take a punt and say that "Zadan" is a likely candidate for provocateur designation, with either a Bulgar/Bugaroman or Greek/grkoman connection. Slavko Mangovski and his patriotic work DEFINITELY attracts a large "following" amongst our "friends" from the east and south and now that he is posting here and heading an internal campaign that is gaining wide support, it is no surprise to me to see masked attacks popping up here on MTO.

Secondly, there has been an increase of weird and wonderful new members joining MTO and I urge the Admins to be on higher alert for some very, very tricky operators that may be active now or will be in future.

Lastly, Slavko Mangovski and his media crew are ideologically seasoned operators and I trust his judgement calls (in most cases) and urge other Macedonians to do the same and show some respect, too!

ArMakedon
09-13-2010, 02:11 PM
eve ti edna definacija; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nazism

dali veruvash vo "bela sila"?

Даскале тоа бела сила прај си муабет со америте. Јас сум Македонец а не амер.

toj e mnogu golema zena .. 357lbs

once i arrive anywhere she goes into her alias mode

А ти меанџијо прашај го даскалот од каде ми е ip па после сери и да не бидам вулгарен па да ти спомнувам нешто женско во фамилијата.
Ние македонците маса мериме во килограми а ти самиот ја потврдуваш мојата констатација.

zadan
10-11-2010, 01:10 PM
slavko mangovski of sonce tv decide not to show intervew with sem vaknin, the hater and enemy of makedonijan peple.

BRAVO TO YOU! you make the write decision, slavce!!!

aleksandar momiroski is again puting vaknin in his reportages:

Numerous Beginnings, Few Completed Projects http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=128578

booh to momiroski and a1 that colaborat with enemy of makedonija.

Prolet
10-11-2010, 08:09 PM
This is fantastic more doom and gloom from Sam Vanknin, he must be the most positive guy in the world.

zadan
10-20-2010, 03:40 AM
Nikola Gruevski, my friend: Time to Start the Revolution!

Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. - 10/20/2010

Nikola Gruevski, Macedoniaís Prime Minister, is the most popular politician his country has ever had. Yet, instead of leveraging this overwhelming mandate to transform Macedonia and reform it from the roots up, he opted for ďchange by a thousand cutsĒ, a gradualist, incremental approach to the fundamental rot at the basis of this polity he oversees.

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26625-gruevski-macedonia-reforms-institutions-eu

fyrOM
10-20-2010, 05:17 AM
Sam Vaknin is a treacherous dog and should be made to leave the country.
Like when two people who are wrestling if one feels they are not strong enough to push back the he can lean back and to the side to allow the force ie strength of the second to fling the second off balance and hopefully to the ground.

Vaknin makes a point of Gruevskis strength ie massive popularity and repeats it several times as a backhanded complement that he is not doing enough with it. A revolution as he suggests is tempting for it is plain for everyone to see Macedonia needs a tear down an rebuild in some parts but this is exactly what the governments enemies both internal and external want to then be able to brand the government nationalistic racist mad and out of control and needing to be thrown out to make room for more stable government.

In addition to temptation Vaknin also uses slurs like change by a thousand cuts to belittle the government in the eyes of the reader and hence the people in a vein attempt to both push and pull the government into action while all along knowing that treaturouse types lurk at all levels in government institutions hiding in the shadows lest they be removed waiting to pounce at any moment the government be labelled negatively in some major stumble or even perceived error.

Vakin belittles the reader and hence the Macedonian public by thinking his simpletons tactic of push and pull cannot be seen through from a mile away. He is a simple mind because regardless if he truly thinks the Macedonian people will fall for such a simple trick or it is the best he can come up with he betrays his own ineptness. He should be told his simple push pull tactics blow and suck at the same time and shown the door as quickly as possible. He is no friend of Macedonia and the Macedonians and certainly has no right to call Gruevski friend.:devil2:

Rogi
10-20-2010, 05:22 AM
Whatever the view of the person, there's not much to be argued with this particular article by Vaknin, in my opinion. Perhaps other than his purpose.

Though he has ignored the corrupt Constitutional Court's decisions to end some of the more substantive reforms and policies that were introduced, he has also ignored many of the arrests for corruption that have taken place at various Government institutions and the Administration, though granted there is much to do in this area and we're yet to see any arrests in the upper echelons of Government and Administration, where it no real secret how rife the level of corruption really is.

I would like to see that list of 310 reforms again, I'm sure I had it saved somewhere.

Surely cutting in half the size of the Administration, albeit over time, has to be among them. Sure it will lose votes, but it's necessary if Macedonia wants to progress.

Indigen made an excellent point in another thread about the costs of the Ohrid Agreement, if they cannot be brave enough to end the Ohrid Agreement, then they should consider at least commissioning an evaluation of the costs carried due to the Ohrid Agreement (i.e. translation services even in Parliament, at local councils, etc) and what costs can be eliminated, because they are out of hand and a real burden to the tax-payer.

fyrOM
10-20-2010, 05:58 AM
Iím sure you are familiar with the saying the pen is mightier then the sword. The ethic Albanians seized some power at a time when Macedonia was weak both militarily and emotionally and even then only because backed by a threat from the usa to bomb Macedonia back to the stone age. The Macedonians are not naturally a mad blood thirsty type and it is a weakness for it makes them slow to stir but one should never be tempted to try a second time lest it be to ones peril. The army and police weaponry was modernised for rapid reaction and the peoples slow to stir mentality used up last time. A repeat of 2001 will end very differently.

In a place of power Iím sure the Macedonians would know how to use that power like Alexander not wasting his time with the Gordian Knot but faced with a different situation the change by a thousand cuts will not only be righteous but have its desired effect and be very legal. All god thing in good time. The enemies of Macedonia know time is on our side and hence forces are tickling Crvenkovskis ball sack to jump up and down with his rants and threats of a riot in a hope the government will overreact and trip up.

julie
10-20-2010, 06:29 AM
Vaknin is a tool. Nikola may be his best friend in his wettest dreams, I doubt Gruevski even knows who this disgraceful Macedonian is.

Prolet
10-20-2010, 08:03 AM
Rogi, Do you know that there are Ethnic Albanians employed in the administration yet they are not working (Officially there is no work for them) but they are getting payed anyway?

Even the head of OSCE criticized the Government for having too many ramkovni vrabotuvanja, but who enforces this? The EU ofcourse because if they dont then these same people will seek asylum in the EU countries just like those Albanians from the Lipkovo region.

I cant believe you are buying Sam Vaknin's crap, he says how Nikola Gruevski is blaming everything on the Global Recession but look at whats going on. I wont even mention Greece, Bulgaria was declared the poorest EU country and now Bojko Borisov is looking for every way to get money by chasing those who havnt payed their taxes, France is in chaos the Petrol Stations are empty there are riots on the streets, UK for the very first time its forced to make major cuts by cutting their defense budget by a whopping 8% which means they have to sack over 40,000 people.

makedonin
10-20-2010, 08:20 AM
Do you know that there are Ethnic Albanians employed in the administration yet they are not working (Officially there is no work for them) but they are getting payed anyway?


Yep, you can see them how they go to "work" in the cafťs with their cunts around them.

They are good paid for their "hard work". What a disgrace for R. of Macedonia.

zadan
10-20-2010, 09:46 AM
i think he mean this:

http://samvak.tripod.com/0conpar.html

it was realy publish in Nova Makedonija. I check.

julie, before you wright gluposti, lern some fact: vaknin is izraeli and is tru that he and gruevski are once best frends. they even wright book together:

http://worldcat.org/oclc/52239639&referer=brief_results

he is evil enemy of makedonijans but all media in makedonija are afraid to show the movi about him:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/

sonce tv the big patriot tv show long intervie with vaknin calling makeonijan peopl teski seljaci that have no right to have own state becuse they are not ready for it.

julie
10-20-2010, 12:20 PM
I will retract my comment zadan , apologies, they once knew each other. Gruevski would have had to stroke his ego, I have heard of Vaknin. He is Jewish, yes, calls himself MAcedonian (unless he has Israeli citizenship)
He is a disgrace and an embarrassment

they should show the link - http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/ in Macedonia.

Prolet
10-20-2010, 08:53 PM
Vaknin and his long-suffering but ever-loyal wife, Lidija, embark on a diagnostic road trip.

If his wife's name is Lidija there is a good chance that she is Macedonian, it would make more sence why he is in Macedonia.

zadan
10-23-2010, 03:24 AM
he is izraeli with izraeli pasport. he hate makedonijans very much. to call him makedonijan is for him big insult. he say all makedonijans are teski seljaci and shuld not have own country, they too primitiv and stupid for that. lidija is makedonka, tru. he live in makedonija but spit on makedonia and makedonijans all the time. no one want to thro vaknin out of makedonija like persona non grate. no media have courag to show the dokumentar film about vaknin. even patriot tv like tv sonce show intervie with vaknin. sramota. i meet him many times (he don't kno i am zadan). he is horible man, disgusting, ugly and very very stupid and sadist.

Risto the Great
10-23-2010, 06:26 PM
sonce tv the big patriot tv show long intervie with vaknin calling makeonijan peopl teski seljaci that have no right to have own state becuse they are not ready for it.

I think the majority of Macedonians in Macedonia have accepted the new flag and certainly voted in a referendum FOR the Ohrid Agreement. I am quite sure they have much to learn about having their own State.

fyrOM
10-24-2010, 01:42 PM
Gruevski and Ivanov riding Macedonia to safety as Vaknin and his eu friends cheer them on.

http://lolsnaps.com/?media_id=993&cat_type=all&order_type=latest&pagenum=1

fyrOM
10-24-2010, 01:49 PM
Macedonians showing they are not afraid of eu paper tigers.

http://lolsnaps.com/?media_id=996&cat_type=all&order_type=latest&pagenum=1

zadan
10-25-2010, 01:13 AM
vaknin is completly against eu. in 1997 he publish this in nova makedonija:

http://samvak.tripod.com/nm04.html

Also, a few week ago this:

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26576-macedonia-greece-name-dispute-albanians

Myth number 3: EU Accession is Macedoniaís ticket to instant and sustained prosperity

The EU is in the throes of a life-threatening crisis and the entire enlargement project is in ever-growing doubt. Even if the EU were to emerge unscathed from this predicament, its harried officials still regard the Western Balkans as a cesspit, an Ottoman-Byzantine-Oriental Muslim-infested relic in the heart of an otherwise civilized, genteel, and Christian Europe (read: West). The more bigoted of the EU members are going to drag the negotiations with the likes of Macedonia as they have been doing with Turkey for decades now.

Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedoniaís sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.

In the long-term, accession will bring with it sizable benefits in the transfer of technological knowledge and management skills and in encouraging foreign direct investment. But these welcome side-effects and by-products of EU membership depend crucially on an all-pervading internal transformation. Macedonains lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective. Their rampant individualism is malignant and they all perceive the state and any form of authority as potential and actual enemies.

So, why are Macedonians so keen on joining the EU?

Some of them hope to turn a quick profit as asset prices (shares, real-estate) react to the good news. Others canít wait to abandon ship and join the throngs of economic immigrants from Bulgaria and Poland. Not one Macedonian I have met realizes the full implications of EU accession and not one of them gives a fig. They all perceive the EU as a ďget-rich-quickĒ scheme.

Onur
10-25-2010, 05:39 AM
Also, a few week ago this:

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26576-macedonia-greece-name-dispute-albanians

Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel and access to regional development funds and EU tenders.

The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire;environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector,

such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions.


If thats the situation, then i agree to that. Want me to compare this with Turkey`s position in the EU?

Supposedly Turkey has free trade too because of EU customs union agreement but since Turkish citizens need visas and 20+ documents to be able to get a permit to enter any EU country, it`s working against our advantage but at the same time, Europeans enjoys full benefit of this cuz they don't need visas to come, work and travel in Turkey.

Because of Cypriot, Greek blockages, Turkey cannot get much benefit from EU funds either.

Turkey`s judiciary and legislature already buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire since 15 years and our parliement worked hard for it to make Turkey`s system to be compatible with EU`s. AND for what? for nothing cuz we wont be a member of EU and we need to reverse all these modifications done to our every system because of EU impositions.

Some of our small sized private sectors already crushed by the huge EU companies like Ikea, 3M, Carrefour, Tesco etc.

Brain drain was big issue for us in 1990s too. They were simply stealing our most brilliant people by using educational EU programs in Turkish universities like Erasmus and so on. They still do that but we were able to stop most of the brain drain after 2000. Hopefully, people are not stupid enough anymore to go to France and/or Germany to contribute their development just to be labeled as islamo-terrorist, gypsy, filthy turk in there. Fortunately, most of our brilliant people stays in Turkey anymore and they work for the progress of their own country, not for Nazis.

fyrOM
10-25-2010, 05:49 AM
Zadan this is old news even if Vaknin repeats it tomorrow it will still be old news. His style is backhanded compliments. I think you can see through this.

In the long-term, accession will bring with it sizable benefits in the transfer of technological knowledge and management skills and in encouraging foreign direct investment. But these welcome side-effects and by-products of EU membership depend crucially on an all-pervading internal transformation. Macedonians lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective.

So in the long term according to him the eu will be good thing but are dependent on transformation in Macedonia which the people

lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own.

Could he mean the maturity to put our stuck-up pride about being Macedonians aside and be pragmatic and say a Kind of Macedonian with lots of money is better than being a THE Macedonian and poor especially if we had the ability to understand education we would already know real Macedonians are long gone but in any event were different from us newcomers and get up-to-date with reality and stop dreaming and move on. A standard Slavic migration argument which the Greeks and all the other neighbours and SDSM have been saying all along.

Vaknin should be reminded that todayís Macedonians are smarter than his stupid old style being called a stupid weakling will make you say no Iím not and make you act harder style of motivation technique. This is old school Yugoslav days style but he deludes himself to think this style ever worked with the Macedonians when in fact the real reason Macedonians ever did anything in Yugoslavia was because armed soldiers stood by at the ready while peoples farms and stock were confiscated and the secret police took away for questioning anyone who so much as had the finger pointed at them of speaking out regardless if they did or didnít say a word and the people who were questioned came back as cripples and died within a few years no matter how young they were. Vaknin should stop dreaming of the good old days and any Macedonians tempted to listen to his stupidity and that of SDSM should ask their grandparents what they went through.

zadan
10-25-2010, 06:51 AM
steve, my frend from canada wright this today. please you also wright to norway embasy and gew to tel them not to invite vaknin:

mesage steve send today:



Subject: (from Steve) in his own words, Sam Vaknin - invited to the GEW - is an open enemy of Macedonia (as well as an ex-criminal)

From: Liran Shem <[email protected]>

To: Marija Armenski PSM Fondacija <[email protected]>; [email protected]

Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]


Respected Mrs. Maria,

My name is Steve and I am a Macedonian living in Canada. My friend Zadan is a Macedonian journalist and wishes to apologize for his English skills.

He asked me to help him with this as he intends to write to the Norwegian Embassy and to the media regarding your invitation of Mr. Vaknin to the event.

It is your affair that you are inviting a self-confessed psychopath (see the movie "I, Psychopath") and an ex-convict ( Vaknin is a criminal who served time in Israeli prisons - just read his own CV!!!). In the documentary film he even admits that his Ph.D. is fake and he bought it from a diploma mill. Zadan and many others think that you should not dignify such people with an invitation to participate in a panel.

But this is not the point.

The point is that Vaknin wrote recently that Macedonia should not exist because the Macedonians are primitive and don't know how to run a country.

Read his own article:

http://www.globalpolitician.com/26576-macedonia-greece-name-dispute-albanians

" Macedonains lack the skills, the knowledge, the emotional maturity, and the cultural background to have a state of their own, let alone a democracy. They have yet to develop a sense of being part of a cohesive collective."

Vaknin openly admits that he hates Macedonia and the Macedonian people. Why invite such a person to an event that is supposed to be pro-Macedonian?

You are a public body in Macedonia. As such you should welcome input from the population. We just wanted to bring these facts to your attention. If - after all this - you still believe that Vaknin should be invited, is up to you. We intend to make your invitation to him public.

Steve N., MD, Canada
Concerned Macedonian

From: Marija Armenski PSM Fondacija <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 9:13:17 PM
Subject: FW: zikov and vaknin in tribina of gew in next mont GLOBAL ENTREPRENEURSHIP WEEK 2010 MACEDONIA


Dear Zadan,



There is law in Macedonia called freedom of speech. But I know that you must be familiar more with the US legislation so please go and find it and read it if you can.

I believe that afterward you will understand what it means.

I am financing the event so I WILL INVITE whoever I want and shame on you how can you send mails to people that you do not know and you invade their privacy. I believe that we live in a free country where everybody can do whatever he/she wants unless harming laws. So, if you do not like Mr.Vaknin, please do not participate at the event.

I wish you all the best!



Regards,


(no signing)

fyrOM
10-25-2010, 10:53 AM
Zadan you got exactly the response you should have expected. Gone are the days when force would work every timeÖthe key word is persuasion.

Too many people hold freedom of speech in a high place and anyone attacking freedom of speech will be attacked regardless if you are right or wrong unless ofcourse as the responding email says unless harming laws. Not quite the most eloquent way to put it but I think you know what they mean.

As a journalist I would have though you would be more familiar with the concept of freedom of speech and also honed in on your skills at persuasive writing.

PS Is your name Shem re From: Liran Shem <[email protected]>

zadan
10-25-2010, 02:38 PM
my name is zoran d. = ZaDan (Den is name of good frend of myne). i am jurnalist with bigest paper in makedonija. i live in skoppje. i kno vaknin and meet him many times. he dont kno i am zadan.

in makedonija to give freedom of speech to enemy that say that makedonijans shuld not have own country???

even in usa this is not posible, sorry i dont agre with you.

Makedonetz
10-25-2010, 02:51 PM
wow for someone who has the largest paper in Macedonia i think id learn how to spell our capital city first before you toot your horn there bratko.

skoppje

TrueMacedonian
10-25-2010, 03:06 PM
Zadan why not provide a counter arguement with facts through your newspaper? I think that would hit harder than asking someone to silence a persons opinion because you don't like it.

fyrOM
10-25-2010, 07:05 PM
Zadan Its irrelevant whether you agree with me or not it is a fact in all western countries and a firmly held belief. What I am saying is if you are going to tackle someone from a country that has freedom of speech they will never let you win by trying to silence freedom of speech regardless how right you are and they will ignore you or tell you to go away as they did. It is their game with their rules and if you want to play it will be by their rules or they wont let you play.

Completely silencing someone is not easy but you can minimise how much someone wants to talk to a person or to treat them with hostility. All Iím saying is you need a different approach to get the interviewer to be favourable to your views. As TrueMacedonian suggests you could write a counter piece in your paper. I donít know if this would effect Vaknin realising who you are. Try persuading the interviewer of Vaknins negative qualities but more so the inaccuracies in his views.

Makedonez I would expect better from all posters. Ofcourse you are free to say what you want and how appt that the discussion is about freedom of speech. But you might want to consider not to trivialise the meaning of a post by targeting trivial matters like a missed typo. We have all done typos and itís a cheap shot and as such it belittles the writer more than the person it is targeted at.

ZadanÖTotally coincidently the above paragraph is an example of what I was talking about.

Bill77
10-25-2010, 07:18 PM
ozi...... There must be a line where something is clasified as "Freedom of speech" and when its crossed it becomes dangerous for the state.
Could you argue that the likes of Thaci and Erwan Fouťrť negetive and dangerous comments as being freedom of speech also?


Regarding the email by Steve,
The idea of sending a complaint wasn't bad. The way it was written is shocking.
Zadan, next time you wan't to use your rights of freedom of speech, get someone more profesional to write one for you. I mean..... look at this,

It is your affair that you are inviting a self-confessed psychopath (see the movie "I, Psychopath")

Now how can anyone take you or the sender of this seriously.

fyrOM
10-25-2010, 10:13 PM
Bill77...You are right Bill77 that not anything and everything can be said in the name of free speech.
There is hate speech incitement to violence including rebellion war and treason. The person doing the reply I guess Marija Armenski Öone could joke aramianski unless she is calling Vaknin in to discredit himÖput it
unless harming laws.
which I guess is her way of saying unless it contravenes any law which she doesnít elaborate but which I have mentioned above.

Thaci and Co making statements about splitting the state or acting by force of arms are illegal and the government could have taken them to task depending on how Macedoniaís laws of treason a framed. I think one could argue the government is giving them too much latitude but I think it is the government giving them enough rope. At least I hope so. My guess is after the census next year the screws will be tightened on them after all if done now only the old lying statistics remain and arguments could be made by internal and external forces.

PetarMKD
10-25-2010, 10:16 PM
The problem is they abuse the basic human right to express them selves freely by denying us the basic human right of self determination so that should be a sufficient argument to nullify their right. So OziMak if those are their rules I guess they must obey. :) However, you must have realized by now that those rules apply for everyone except for the Macedonians. They have a whole new set of rules for us, they are called double standards. :(

Prolet
10-25-2010, 10:35 PM
I think there is a fine line of Free Speech compared to promoting genocide,treason,non existence of our country if somebody does this in America they would probably be tried for high treason.

Its one thing to state an opinion but this is more like hate and pissing on our country, its not free speech its more like anarchy.

Pelister
10-26-2010, 01:26 AM
I think that any forum that discusses issues about Macedonia, and the Macedonians with no educated and principled Macedonian representatives is a farce. Moreover, if all that happens is that a meeting of various people - some of whom (such as S. Vaknin) have been known to say negative things against the Macedonian State and people, gathers, well, it begins to look like a bullshit gathering more interested is political mischief, than forum that is serious, respectful and dignified.

Let this moron waste his money.