Velika Popovska 64 year old woman turned away from Greek border 10th July 2012

[vodenka]

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/94675.pdf

This is Just for information for Macedonians of the Diaspora who were born in Greece and plan to get a passport to travel to Europe. This is about USA but I guess it must be similar procedures also for Australia and Canada.

It seems to me that Greece, as many other countries, can demand that the toponyms in Greece must be the official greek ones, on documents. So, I am afraid there is no way to get any help from any government or human rights organization on cases like this, unless the change of the passport.

[Louis]

"For example:
If the passport applicant lists the place of birth on the passport application as Danzig, Germany, the passport authorizing officer should annotate the passport application to reflect the birthplace code for the jurisdiction with current sovereignty and place name as Gdansk, Poland even if the birth evidence (including naturalization certificates) list Danzig, Germany."

This document is from USA. If Australia has a similar rule, your mother would not have to provide a new birth certificate. I read your post, I wasn't aware her passport is stamped "No entry".

Last idea. Can the Australian Consulate at Skopje do something, e.g. issue a new passport or equivalent document? What if your mother had lost her passport or it had been stolen? There must be some quick process for such cases.

[vodenka]

Originally Posted by Angliski

I frankly don't know whether the Greeks are right or wrong in their perceptions, machorot, but I suspect they are either one or the other depending on your point of view. My point of view, as previously stated, is that a solution benefits all parties. "right" and "wrong" in disagreements only makes a resolution more difficult if not impossible.

The "solution" about the issues between Greeks and Macedonians will come when Greeks will accept the fact that they occupied and annexed half of the macedonian territory using violence and offensive war. Macedonia was not liberated by its own people with some kind of revolution or independance war but was occupied by foreign military armies of three allied countries (Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece). This means that the native Macedonian population have some rights (in the greek part od Macedonia, but this should apply also for Bulgaria and Pirinska Macedonia) that Greece has to grant them, one of which is the official use of our language and the use of the original toponyms of our cities and villages, officially, on our documents. And many other rights, like the administration and care of our cultural, historical and archeological heritage which should be granted to the local administration and not to the greek state and ministries. We can accept the borders imposed on our country, but we will never abandon our rights as macedonian nation.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Angliski

the dispute, oh, Master of athe Socratic Method, is that which prevents Greece and Macedonia ( or should it be Macedonia and Greece?) from having full and harmonious diplomatic relations and becoming the strong allies they should be. If you need more help than that, you must seek it elsewhere, in exactly the same place where you might find someone who finds your coy and precious manner less tiresome than I do, my paranoid Balkan friend.

"forgetting" is sometimes necessary and can be balm for the human soul. It is not meant for one nationality or the other. And only a fool would dispute that.

Angliski, you came on here and provided some vague (and what is starting to appear idiotic) advice about "forgetting" in order to move "forward". Now I want you to tell us exactly which problem you are referring to (there are more than just one) and what exactly you think the Macedonians should be "forgetting".

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Vodenka,

According to that link, one of UMD's objectives is:

Strengthen the unity among the Macedonian Diaspora

What does that actually mean? What do they want to unify Macedonians around?

Vodenka,

I hope you can provide an answer for this.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Angliski, you came on here and provided some vague (and what is starting to appear idiotic) advice about "forgetting" in order to move "forward". Now I want you to tell us exactly which problem you are referring to (there are more than just one) and what exactly you think the Macedonians should be "forgetting".

Yes. It was a disappointing response. I was hoping he wasn't going to continue avoiding where the problem originated and that he might enunciate his murmurings more clearly. But, ultimately, we are dealing with another Greek in supposedly reasonable man's clothing.

[George S.]

Angliski quote //" two national neighbors that cannot or will not solve a dispute that diminishes and disadvantages both of them even though a solution would greatly benefit both. Of course, oWith respect to your question Regarding the Greece/Macedonia name dispute and it's solution, the mechanisms for a solution have been in place for many years. In these cases, a solution normally comes after mutual good-will, compromise, pressure or capitulation. None of these elements figure in the name dispute yet."//

AngliskiThese responses are from your stupid govt who expects macedonia to capitulate as greece will veto any membership to nato or the eu.Let's just examine it in detail,can you explain to me how macedonia has a problem with the name & why should it comprimise it's name.Also how can greece dictate to macedonia when it's a sovereign nation.
Please explain how a name of a country could be a problem to greece when it just holds an area called a province.So this is not a problem with the name it's mainly devised as a ploy to say macedonia is all greek it belongs to greece macedonia has no right to call itself macedonia.
lets examine that in 1912 what did the greeks do annexed macedonia agains't the macedonian people's wishes.On the pretext of liberating it from the ottomans NOT that greece owned any part of macedonia before.Greece before 1912 never set foot in Macedonia before.So in conclusion greece is all paranoid or pretending to be paranoid over nothing.What it should do is really recognize it's neighbour Macedonia isn't that what good neighbourly relations are.Please spare me the crap as greece had macedonia put in her constitution that it would not have any irrendist claims on northern greece all those claims & fears were settled in the early years.So greece should stop its lying & BS to stop macedonia from entering nato or eu as its important for the security of the area.Greece is the spoilt brat of the eu & should stop acting like one.Also why is greece bullying macedonia into submission by saying its macedonia thats not cooperating when really it's greece showing nil comprimise etc.Can a name be compromised on a people??Greece has also been interfering in the affairs of a sovereign nation & neighbour macedonia preventing her being called macedonia by naming it FYROM not just that BUT THE FYROM in the UN isn't that ridiculous.How can the name be relevant it is nonsensical & it was put on macedonia by greece in the un prior to macedonia entering.What did the people vote for in their constitution to call their country MACEDONIA.
Also Macedonia had allready compromised by gruevski by calling it self Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) guess what your stupid govt said NO.Quote "None of these elements figure in the name dispute yet." Rubbish you know jack shit about the "dispute" what is a dispute even
a name dispute is not between macedonia & greece.Greece is the one that's got the problem Macedonia has NO problem with the name.Greece is "pressuring" more apt is bullying macedonia into submission it's not right here that macedonia has to change her name.Greece is the one tocomprimise capitulate ,good neighbourly relations.Macedonia has allready compromised on the flag & now they want it to compromise on the name.In other words give up anything macedonian because greece has been complaining.Remember the soldier on a horse/alexander the great,The naming of airports.etc never ending disputes these are the making of a paranoid neighbour.Who should know better but doesn't.So really there is no end to it it's all created by greece to trick Macedonia to give up the flag,to give up it's name & anyhting else that's macedonian.REMEMBER greece has no claim at all on anything macedonian being historical or phhysical only as a result of the 1912 balkan wars.
May i remind people that greece has gone way way beyond it has even paid millions to alter encyclopadias & reference books etc etc to say that macedonians are greek.All this is false, under scientific scrutiny when one puts to the test supposedly that macedonians are slavs which is an outright lie,macedonians were greeks they spoke greek & only greek again this is an outright lie.
Also most recently the greeks paid journalists all over the place greek & even in macedonia $150 million dollars to say that macedonia is greek.How low can you get.The claims get sillier as time goes on.It's all in the game to get a monopoly a foothold where they can take over anything macedonian.It was a fact that greece was one that wasn't satisfied with her piece of macedonia in the partitioning it wanted more land.So don't be surprised as they are the ones that hold irrendist claims NOT poor defenceless ROM.Greece thinks it can sit there & lie & cheat macedonia out of being macedonia.So as Macedonians we need to stand up to this bully & their bullying.

[vodenka]

Unity means to work all together for a common goal. But this cannot be obligatory. If you disagree with the goal or the ways some organizations use to achieve these goal, you may not join. This does not mean that you cannot do your own activism to achieve the goals you think are best, by the ways you think are best.
If you think that some organization does not fulfil your expecyetions and in the same time you think it does some demage to the cause, you are free to criticize it, exposing some facts of what you criticize.

[vodenka]

Originally Posted by Louis

"For example:
If the passport applicant lists the place of birth on the passport application as Danzig, Germany, the passport authorizing officer should annotate the passport application to reflect the birthplace code for the jurisdiction with current sovereignty and place name as Gdansk, Poland even if the birth evidence (including naturalization certificates) list Danzig, Germany."

This document is from USA. If Australia has a similar rule, your mother would not have to provide a new birth certificate. I read your post, I wasn't aware her passport is stamped "No entry".

Last idea. Can the Australian Consulate at Skopje do something, e.g. issue a new passport or equivalent document? What if your mother had lost her passport or it had been stolen? There must be some quick process for such cases.

On page 7 (f) it writes about Macedonia

[George S.]

guys lets not make excuses now.The fact is she went with an valid,current, stamped australian passport
valid in australia.Velika travelled all the way from australia only to be prevented by some stupid technicality & stamping "no entry"".Whose fault is it the greeks annexed macedonia in 1912 & changed the toponyms to greek ones.All i can say is they are just Nazis & they shouldn't get away with harrasing & preventing law abiding citizens from other countries just to travel to their ancestral lands.What's greece hiding from the world is it scared of 64 year old woman??
Like isaid before in my posts greece does not have a good track record in it's treatment of foreigners & denying them justice & visits to their ancestral homeland.My relatives passports were confiscated,spat on ,screwed up & thrown away whils't they were also paying them bribes to let them pass.This is 2012 greece is mean't to be a member of the eu a certain standard is required of them.If they can't behave like a eu member they should not be allowed to be one.There should be no excuses for this form of behaviour it is completely unnacceptable.
""ast idea. Can the Australian Consulate at Skopje do something, e.g. issue a new passport or equivalent document? What if your mother had lost her passport or it had been stolen? There must be some quick process for such cases.""
Don't the greeks side records entry of \denied entry does this actually fix the problem.I think people at the top like BOB Carr can sort it out that she need to be allowed a free & unhindred access one with no denials of entry due to ethnicity or place of birth technicalities.Definitely for the people at the top to speak to the high ranking greek people.Listen if people find out what's going on especially if the media publicises i wonder if people will go back for visits.Quite a lot of the child exodus children have been coming back the last blow is to be forbidden to come at your ancestral place.
Also "the passport authorizing officer should annotate the passport "Why didn't the officer do that & chose to ignore that.From what is seen
if people start doctoring passports then they will be like corrected manuscripts.Again it's not really a valid reason to deny people a visit.