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Old 10-12-2010, 07:56 AM   #1
Soldier of Macedon
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Default Comparison between Turkic and related languages

Just watched a documentary about Rebiya Kadeer, an Uyghur activist that hails from western China, which was formerly known as eastern Turkestan before the Chinese took over the land. She is a very passionate woman, and listening to her speak was interesting, it definetly sounds close to Turkish, but how close I am not sure, which is the reason why, hopefully with Onur's help, we can write a sentence in English here and give the comparative equivalents in each of the Turkic languages.

Onur, what do you say, can you gives us comparisons between Turkish from Turkey and its equivalent languages in Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Uyghur language in west China, etc?
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:06 PM   #2
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Rabia Kader fights for the rights of Uyghur people for a long time. She and all the members of her family sent to the prison several times and they suffered a lot but they continue to their struggle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebiya_Kadeer


Uyghur Turks lives under the occupation of communist China since 1940s. East Turkestan is where Uyghur people lives for 1000+ years. I think Uyghur Turks formed their first state there as early as 9th century but since 1940s, Chinese government changed the name of that province to "Xinjiang" and it`s forbidden to use the word "east Turkestan" for that province in China since then.



For your question about the level of closeness of Turkic languages;

It depends on what kind of sentence i use for giving an example. For example if i use a simple sentence like "I have two apples in my bag" to compare 10+ different Turkic dialects/languages, all of them would be quite same but if i use more complex sentence with post-medieval era terminology, then it will be different to some degree. It`s because, Turkish people in Turkey got separated from other Turkic peoples in Caucasus and central Asia since 11th century(except Azeri Turks since we separated from them only at ~70 years of USSR era). Since then, our languages evolved in different conditions. Also, ~70 years of USSR influence on these Turkic people had huge effect on their language cuz Russians forcefully educated them only in Russian and changed their script to Cyrillic. They also adopted many Russian words in that era. What has happened during that times was close to be defined as assimilation cuz Russians even changed their names too.


For a quick comparison with a simple sentence, i am gonna use the translator in Turkish language institute`s web site. It provides translations between 9 different Turkic languages;

http://www.tdk.org.tr/lehceler/Default.aspx

English; I have two apples in my bag

Turkish of Turkey; Benim torbada iki elma var

Azeri Turkic; Man torbada iki alma var

Bashkir Turkic; Min torbada iki alma bar

Kazakh Turkic; Men dorbada eki alma bar

Kyrgyz Turkic; Men torboda eki alma bar

Uzbek Turkic; Men torvada ikki alma bar

Tatar Turkic; Min torbada iki alma bar

Uyghur Turkic; Man torvada ikki alma bar

Turkmen Turkic of Turkmenistan; Men torba iki alma bar



Some of the Turkic states abandoned Cyrillic and switched to Latin script after they gained their independence at 1990s but afaik, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs still uses Cyrillic script today. The web site for the translations between Turkic languages provides it all in Latin script tough.


I found translations of more complex sentences with post-medieval era terminology on wikipedia;

Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

English; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Turkish of Turkey; Bütün insanlar hür, haysiyet ve hukuk bakımından denk doğarlar. Akıl ve vicdana sahiptirler ve birbirlerine karşı kardeşlik zihniyeti ile hareket etmelidirler.

Uzbek Turkic; Varca ademler erkin, kadir-kıymet ve hukuklarda denk olup doğulurlar. Onlar akıl ve vicdan sahibidirler ve birbirleri ile biraderlerce muamele kılışları zaruri.

Kazakh Turkic; Barlık adamdar twmısınan azat jäne kadir-kasïyeti men kukıktarı teñ bolıp dünïyege keledi. Adamdarğa akıl-parasat, ar-ojdan berilgen, sondıktan olar bir-birimen twıstık, bawırmaldık karım-katınas jasawları tïis.

Uyghur Turkic; Hemme adem zatidinla erkin, izzet-hörmet we hokukta babbaraver bolup tuğulğan. Ular ekilge we vicdanğa ige hem de birbirige kérindaşlik munasivitige xas roh bilen mu’amile kilişi kérek.




Some of the words are different in other Turkic languages but i understand most of these words. We also use some of these different words present in Uyghur and/or Uzbek too but not in this kind of sentence. We use them in different expressions. Btw, i can understand much easier when i read other Turkic languages but if i hear this same sentence above by an Uyghur in east Turkestan, than it would be much more difficult to understand for me because of the difference in their accent. Although, it`s pretty obvious that if i go to any Turkic state, i can easily communicate with them in daily conversation with basic sentences and it only takes about 1-2 month for us to completely learn the differences in their tongue since pretty much all the grammatical words&rules, word order and all the structure of the sentences are quite same.

Last edited by Onur; 10-14-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:43 PM   #3
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Cheers Onur, interesting.
"torba" is bag in Macedonian too.
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:31 PM   #4
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This is Gagauz Turkish taken from a website of a newspaper in Gagauzya, Moldova;

Quote:
Doktor IREÇEK Konstantin, Universitet profesoru olup Pragada, Çehiya memleketindä yılın 1878 yazdı Bulgarların istoriyasını, neredä yazêr gagauzlar için da te ne:

IREÇEK yazêr, ki 1066 yılda 60 000 kuman geçmişlär Tunayı hem da daalmışlar Bulgariya içindä, kumannarın çoyu kayıp olmuş cenk edip bulgarlarlan hem peçeneglärlän, hem çoyu ölüm bulmuşlar ulaşık (salgın) hastalıklardan. Kumannarın kalanı erleşmiş Makedoniyeyä".

http://anasozu.com/history/?razdel=2&id=10
Same text in Turkish of Turkey;
Doktor IREÇEK Konstantin, universite profesoru olup Pragda, Çek memleketinde 1878 yilinda yazdi Bulgarlarin tarihini, ne yazar gagauzlar için:

IREÇEK yazar ki 1066 yilinda 60.000 kuman geçmisler Tunayi hem de dalmislar Bulgaristanin icine, kumanlarin cogu kayip olmus cenk edip hem Bulgarlar hemde peceneklerle, hemde cogu olum bulmuslar bulasici hastaliklardan. Kumanlarin kalani yerlesmis Makedonyaya....


English;
Dr. irecek konstantin, a professor in the university of Prag wrote the history of Bulgars in 1878 and he noted this about gagauzes:

In the year of 1066 AD, ~60.000 Cuman people passed from Danube river and they have gone to the lands of current Bulgaria. Most of them died in a war with both Bulgars and Pechenegs and mainly because of contagious diseases. Rest of the Cumans settled in Macedonia....




Gagauz Turkish is quite same with my tongue but there is one difference; because of the influence from Russian and Moldavian languages in the USSR era, Gagauz Turkish`s word order sometimes different than standard Turkish`s "Subject-object-verb". They use the order of "Subject-verb-object" like Indo-European languages. So, i can understand it but sentences are in inverse form.


P. S: Btw, this text is from an article about the history of Gagauz people. As for the history about Cumans in the text;
After they settled in Macedonia, they created the city of today`s Kumanova in northern Macedonia, which means "field of Cumans". Gagauz people are believed to be the descendants of these people. AFAIK there are about ~4000 Gagauz still living in Kumanova today, for 900+ years!!!

Last edited by Onur; 10-14-2010 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julie View Post
Cheers Onur, interesting.
"torba" is bag in Macedonian too.
You took these words in Ottoman era like Serbs, Bosnians, Greeks did but there is one interesting fact about Hungarian language like this. There is a famous sentence to indicate similarity between Hungarian and Turkish;

English; I have a lot of small yellow apples in my pocket

Turkish; Cebimde cok kucuk sari elma var

Hungarian; Zsebemben sok kicsi sarga alma van


If you don't believe, copy&paste these and translate to English in google


It`s a striking example and ofc the word order is same in both languages. Hungarians didn't adopt these words from us in Ottoman era unlike you did. They adopted these words in era of the Hun Empire and/or Khazar Empire(4th to 9th century or earlier) because Ottoman Empire took control of Hungary at 16th century and it`s impossible that they learned these Turkish words for "apple, pocket" from us as late as 16th century. Also some grammatical suffixes and words like "who, whose, whom..." are similar too, so it cannot be 16th century borrowings. 16th century, Ottoman era adoptions in Hungarian language are quite same as yours like Boza, borek, charsi etc.

Also a lot of agriculture and horse riding terminology in current Hungarian language are Turkish words too.


English - Turkish - Hungarian
Whose book - Kimin kitabi - Kinek könyve
Who - Kim - Ki
Many - Cok - Sok
Little - kucuk - kicsi
With whom - Kiminle - Kivel

Apple - elma - alma
My apple - elma(m) - alma(m)
My apples - elma(larim) - alma(im)



http://member.melbpc.org.au/~tmajlath/turkic1.html

.

Last edited by Onur; 10-15-2010 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 10-15-2010, 09:09 AM   #6
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I posted this message before, about the interaction of Turkish and Macedonian languages;


So i REALLY wonder how many words are common in Macedonian and Turkish now. I just did a google search and found this article written by a Turkish Macedonian in Skopje, BLAJE KONESKI university.

Quote:
abaci>abaciya, bahçivanci>bavçanciya, gayretli>gayretliya, dalaveraci>dalaverciya, elçi>elçiya,zavalli>zavaliya, hileci>ileciya, yazi>yaziya, kavgaci>kavgaciya, lâkirdi>lakrdiya, masrafli>mastrafliya, niyetli>nietliya, pamuklu>pamukliya, raki>rakiya, sarayli>sarayliya, tatli>tatliya, ütü>utiya, fidan boylu>fidanboyliya, hocabasi>hocabasiya, çarsi>çarsiya, serbetli>serbetliya, çalgi>çalgiya, karsi>karsiya, burgu>burgiya, kutu>kutiya, orospu>orospiya/rospiya, ütü>utiya, çarşı>çarsiya, sürü>suriya, terazi>teraziya.

Transformations of letters when adopting Turkish words in Macedonian language;
b>p: biber>piper, bodrum>podrum, sabun>sapun
c>gy: cezve>gyezve, cüzdan>gyuzden
f>v: ziyafet>ziyavet, insaf>isav, mutaf>mutav
h>k: ahmak>akmak, bahşiş>bakşiş, halife>kalifa, mahsus>maksus
h>v: bahçe>bavça, bohça>bovça, mühlet>muvlet, tahta biti>tavtabita
tamahkâr>tamavkyar, tenha>tevna
h>y: zahire>zayre
k>g: böbrek>bubreg, kabarmak>gabardisa, kaval>gaval, kurabiye>gurabiya, çiftlik>çiflig, saka>sega
k>gy: kiremit>gyeramida
m>n: tamam>taman

Dropping of the letter "H";
h->ø-: haber>aber, hazir>azar, hayir>air, hayvan>ayvan, haydi>ayde, haydut>ayduk, helâl>alal, helva>alva, hamal>amal, hamam>amam, hamle>amle, han>an, harami>aramiya, harman>arman, harç>arç, haslamak>asladisa, hekim>ekim, hekimlik-
>ekimlik, hem>em, hesap>esap, hileci>ileciya, hizmet>izmet, hora>oro, hortum>ortoma, hovarda>ovarda/ofarda, hudut>udut, hizmetkâr>izmekyar, hâsil>asli,


There are 4576 words listed in this article but it says there are probably around 8000 common words in Turkish and Macedonian.

http://oktayahmed.com/m/images/stori...k_etkileri.pdf


8000+ words, WOW


http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=3693&page=3

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Old 10-16-2010, 03:08 PM   #7
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This is for Turkish and Greek languages but i think you will understand most of the words in this video too. Probably most of these words exists in all Balkan languages;

YouTube - Turkish-Greek 13.000 common Words
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:58 PM   #8
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the turkic languages seem to be pretty similar in some respects.
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Old 10-17-2010, 03:39 AM   #9
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Very old entry on my former blog:

A COMPILATION OF COMMON WORDS IN TURKISH AND GREEK
http://macedonia-historyandpolitics....ish.html#links
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur View Post
This is for Turkish and Greek languages but i think you will understand most of the words in this video too. Probably most of these words exists in all Balkan languages;

YouTube - Turkish-Greek 13.000 common Words
Not most of the words only few .....very few.

What is important for people to understand is, us Macedonians never claim these "few" words are Macedonian.

Unlike the Greeks, in many cases they add an "S" at the end of the Turkish word and claim its Grik back from the Ancient days.
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