Macedonian Church dispute in Australia

[Risto the Great]

Interesting reading regarding the Property Trust Bill.
Here is a link (the pdf on the right)
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pro...2575AE0016F21C


Here are the functions of the trust pursuant to this Bill:

7
Functions of Trust

(1)The functions of the Trust are as follows:

(a)to purchase, exchange, take on lease, hold, dispose of andotherwise deal with property as trustee for, or for the purposes of,the Church,
(b)to acquire property by gift, devise or bequest and to agree to and carry out the conditions of the gift, devise or bequest,
(c)to borrow or lend money for the purposes of the Church,
(d)to mortgage, charge or otherwise encumber trust property,
(e)to make gifts and donations of property held by it for religious and charitable purposes,
(f)to enter into any guarantee or indemnity that may assist the Trust or the Church in the exercise of its functions,
(g)to do and suffer all other things (whether or not of the kind referred to in this section) that the Metropolitan considers to be necessary, appropriate or desirable,
(h)to do and suffer all other things that bodies corporate may, by law, do and suffer and that are necessary for or incidental to the exercise of its functions under this Act.

(2)The Trust has such other functions as are conferred or imposed on it by this Act.
(3)This section does not limit section 50 of the Interpretation Act 1987.

I note (d) above does not insist mortgaging or encumbering church property is done for the "purposes of the church".

Section (g) also confers a somewhat unhealthy power on the Metropolitan.

This needs more reading but I note a similar Bill introduced in Victoria as well.

[aleksandrov]

Some more critical Sections to focus on:

"13 Arrangements for other churches to use trust property
(1) In this section, scheme of co-operation means a scheme entered into by the Trust:
(a) with or involving a church of another denomination or any
congregation or activity of such a church, and
(b) concerning the use of trust property.
(2) The Trust may permit trust property to be used and managed for the
purposes of a scheme of co-operation on such terms and conditions as
the Trust determines."

"14 Trusts may be varied

(1) The Trust may by resolution declare that, in its opinion, it has become impossible or inexpedient to carry out or observe the terms of a trust of property vested in it, whether as to its purpose or any other of its terms.
(2) The Trust may, by the same or a later resolution, declare that the property is subject to another trust and, on the making of such a declaration:
(a) the trust that is to be replaced ceases, and
(b) the property is to be held subject to the other trust."

What are these provisions for if not to empower Petar to fulfill, at some future time, his long-standing objective of abolishing the ethnic identity of the Macedonian Orthodox Church and placing it under the jurisdiction of a non-Macedonian (i.e. Serbian) church? For those unfamiliar with Petar's record in this regard, I recommend this thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2030

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov

Were you unable to open the link to the Bill and Second Reading speech in my original post?

I clearly have the memory of an amoeba .... once I read your post I went looking for the document. Yours works fine.

[Prolet]

Originally Posted by makedonche

Proletche
It is an extremely important issue and has divided our communities at a time they need to be united. So this raises a few questions:
1/. Why divide the communities (because it's easier to manipulate them)
2/. Who divided the communities ( the Bishop by creating the problems)
3/. Who would benefit from the divided communities(the bishop, the greeks, the serbians and the bulgarians)
4/. What would they benefit( the bishop would be able to pick off each of the churches by lawsuits one at a time - harder to do it if they are all united)(the greeks bulgarians and serbs would keep us weaker and unable to claim our identity,history,culture and lands they have stolen).
Something for you to contemplate!
What's your opinion on my comments Prolet?

Makedonche, Spolaj Ti for your comments

I see zero benefit in anything that divides us from law suits, to punch ups to even boycotting events.

Its extremely disappointing to see our community divided like this, these lawsuits are killing our community and something has to be done about it.

Makedonche, Tomorrow there will be an exclusive report on the Informator website about a priest in Sydney, its not looking too good right now.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet, you keep talking about how disappointed you are. Well, so are we. I am disappointed with Petar specifically.

How about you? Where do you lay the 'responsibility' for this mess?

Are you a supporter of Petar's?

[makedonche]

Originally Posted by Prolet

Makedonche, Spolaj Ti for your comments

I see zero benefit in anything that divides us from law suits, to punch ups to even boycotting events.

Its extremely disappointing to see our community divided like this, these lawsuits are killing our community and something has to be done about it.

Makedonche, Tomorrow there will be an exclusive report on the Informator website about a priest in Sydney, its not looking too good right now.

Proletche
Thanks for your response and answers. I wonder if you wouldn't mind looking at the questions and answers I wrote and tell me if you agree or disagree with each one?

[aleksandrov]

If you want to do something practical to stop this unscrupulous and deceptive attempt to disempower the self-organized and patriotic Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia, and to usurp their communal funds and assets, in the service of undetermined interests, please send a brief (even if only one sentence) email expressing opposition to the Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill to every member of the NSW Parliament:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pro...CurrentMembers

[indigen]

Originally Posted by aleksandrov

If you want to do something practical to stop this unscrupulous and deceptive attempt to disempower the self-organized and patriotic Macedonian Orthodox communities in Australia, and to usurp their communal funds and assets, in the service of undetermined interests, please send a brief(even if only one sentence) email expressing opposition to the Macedonian Orthodox Church PROPERTY Trust Bill to every member of the NSW Parliament:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/pro...CurrentMembers

Can you please explain how he can do this to the registered Public Companies and Incorporated Associations not under the Canonical jurisdiction of MPC/MOC-Ohrid Archdiocese, e.g. MOCS?

Secondly, what are the relevant dates (so that we can asses the urgency for responding and to learn about processes involved) in getting this legislation passed into Law?

Lastly, can you provide a sample/template letter to be used directly or as a reference point and an email address/web page for a contact to a campaign coordinator for obtaining future campaign action notices?

[Prolet]

Aleksandrov, The link doesnt work

SOM, I support MPC but i dont believe Bishop Petar has done a good job in uniting our people and bringing our community closer as its his job to do so as a Bishop. I do believe in hierarchy but at the same time i believe in reform within MPC.

I think after 15 years Bishop Petar should move on to other duties, keep in mind that an Ambassador has a 4 year term a President has a 5 year term so its time for a new Bishop to come in and pick up the pieces whatever is left over.

Makedonche, I dont agree entirely with your answers but i do agree with the majority of your points. We cant put all the blame on Bishop Petar, everybody needs to take responsibility including the community leaders.

Every single Macedonian Orthodox Church in Australia and outside of Macedonia should be under the umbrella of the MPC, i just think there needs to be done in a better way and with the support of all the leaders.

[makedonche]

Quote:
Makedonche, I dont agree entirely with your answers but i do agree with the majority of your points. We cant put all the blame on Bishop Petar, everybody needs to take responsibility including the community leaders.

Every single Macedonian Orthodox Church in Australia and outside of Macedonia should be under the umbrella of the MPC, i just think there needs to be done in a better way and with the support of all the leaders."

Proletche
I am not blaming anyone, they were general observations and opinions.
Everybody does need to take responsibility and accountability - the Community Leaders have no choice, they are accountable to the members and they did take responsibility and tried to unite under the umbrella of the MPC, but it takes both parties to agree and reach a satisfying result in line with the law and the wishes of the members of the communities. It was the wishes of the members that were ignored and cast aside without consideration that led to the commencement of legal proceedings. Now I'm sure you know how the law works here and how under Australian law the members of an association vote on it's direction and most other matters - in particular transparency and accountability, stucture, procedures,finances etc. - it is this very accountability and transparency they were seeking before handing over assets(churches,halls,centres,properties) and the transparency and accountability were denied. Bearing all this in mind where do you think the fault is (not whose fault is it)?