Greek and Bulgarian Music and culture

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Rosetta may be that failed actor from Greece who keeps re-appearing here every few months. Previous usernames were Kissing Lions, Thessalo-niki, and some others.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Makedonska_Kafana
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2010
      • 2642

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Rosetta may be that failed actor from Greece who keeps re-appearing here every few months. Previous usernames were Kissing Lions, Thessalo-niki, and some others.
      Macedonians, never use bogus names like Soula has done. All, these wanna be Makedonci below me
      Last edited by Makedonska_Kafana; 05-29-2011, 09:43 PM.
      http://www.makedonskakafana.com

      Macedonia for the Macedonians

      Comment

      • rosetta
        Banned
        • May 2011
        • 68

        The construction and adoption of musical instruments is a very interesting topic.
        Davul is the Turkish word for a drum appearing in the area covering Iran, Iraq, Armenia, Turkey and all the Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia).
        Zurna is usually attributed to Armenians covers a wider area that the one mentioned before.
        I’ve never heard of tulum (it’s a kind of gaida?)

        Romaic/Roman was the name for (common) Greek language. When Hellenic was mentioned distinctly from Roman it would probably refer to Bible, ecclesiastical, official (semi-archaic) language. Usually the terms were used interchangeably. If it was 50% Turkish you would understand half of it. You may have found it as a blanket term for all local idioms (including the ones with heavy Turkish influence) but this is not the appropriate definition of Romaic.

        I was under the impression it was the Caramanledes that had fully adopted Turkish language (in Greek alphabet) and the Cappadocians were speaking this hybrid. Maybe these two categories are too generic.
        The pre-Ottoman era is interesting, but I was mostly questioning if the term Christian Turk would apply e.g. in the 19th Century.

        I understand that after Ottoman domination, one could convert from Christian to Islam, but not vice versa. I don’t mean he would have no reason to do so, I mean he would be decapitated (according to the Islamic law). Thus, the Christian community would be shrinking, but it stayed untouched from foreign mixes for more than 400 years. The first Cappadocian song (Leylalum) is exclusively danced and sung by women, and, I believe, speaks derogatory for Arabs and their women. Were Muslim women dancing?

        The Gagauz people fought bravely against the Ottomans in the Russian-Turkish wars. I believe the ones that came in Greece originally lived in Eastern Thrace and (like Pontians) were fanatic Greeks.

        Originally posted by Onur View Post
        I saw these names of Pontian dances from your link;
        Tik, Ters, Tas, Almatsouk, Giurvalandun, Karsilamas, Tsurtuguzus, Dolme, Utsai, Sarikuz.
        I had only heard of Tik and Karsilama. We consider only the first as Pontian, not the second.
        I found a list of Pontian dances in Greece as follows: Aneforitsa, Apo pan ke kat, Armatsouk, Atsapat, Yetiere, Yiourvaladun, Etaire, Kotsari, Kizela, Mantilia, Utsai, Omal, Sera, Titara Argyroupolis, Tik mono, Trygona, Tsurtuguzus, Hala

        Yes, for instance, pyrrichios (fire dance) is the most famous case of an ancient war dance, that is described in detail by Homer and Xenophon and was popular in Greece from Crete to Pontus. We don’t consider it a Turkish dance and the closest modern equivalent can be found in the Pontian dances (specifically the one called serra) and probably some Cretan dances.

        Comment

        • rosetta
          Banned
          • May 2011
          • 68

          Makedonska_Kafana

          Alona is not close to Armensko. It IS Armensko.
          Xino Nero= Vrbeni = Eksi Sou

          I’ve never been on Macedonians-on-the-web as a member or even a systematic reader, I’ve only been in maknews and imdb-politics.
          Who the hell is Soula?



          Soldier of Macedon,

          Yes, I’m afraid it’s me again. My previous names were: Thessaloniki, Thessalonikefs, Thessalo-niki, Triandria, AriadniTr, A-Lion-The-Kiss, Akzion, Moon Tiki, ennea
          Which means that this is (or was) my 10th time, though it wasn’t my intention to enter the Guinness book.

          I’m not a failed actor (in case you were speaking literally).

          Comment

          • Makedonska_Kafana
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2010
            • 2642

            Originally posted by rosetta View Post
            Makedonska_Kafana

            Alona is not close to Armensko. It IS Armensko.
            I, know that because I'm Macedonian not Greek if you have not noticed.
            Last edited by Makedonska_Kafana; 05-30-2011, 04:51 PM.
            http://www.makedonskakafana.com

            Macedonia for the Macedonians

            Comment

            • lavce pelagonski
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 1993

              Soula why are you a try-hard Greek, does your day hit you with the stick to try and beat the Macedonian in you and make you put on a Greek mask. We are here to help you Razbiras?
              Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

              „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

              Comment

              • rosetta
                Banned
                • May 2011
                • 68

                (If you're referring to me as Soula)
                I have no problem answering angry questions. I just have no idea what exactly you're asking or what Razbiras is.

                Comment

                • lavce pelagonski
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2009
                  • 1993

                  It means do you understand - your a classic Pushkar all ways switching between Macedonian and Greek.
                  Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

                  „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by rosetta View Post
                    Soldier of Macedon,

                    Yes, I’m afraid it’s me again. My previous names were: Thessaloniki, Thessalonikefs, Thessalo-niki, Triandria, AriadniTr, A-Lion-The-Kiss, Akzion, Moon Tiki, ennea
                    Which means that this is (or was) my 10th time, though it wasn’t my intention to enter the Guinness book.

                    I’m not a failed actor (in case you were speaking literally).
                    And now you're here as cultea.

                    Interesting clips by the way, Macedonian music cannot be mistaken, it is a part of Macedonian culture and is native to the Macedonian regions (all of them), this sort of music isn't native to Athens or elsewhere in Greece. Too bad it isn't complimented and accompanied by Macedonian words like it naturally should be.

                    What does authentic Greek music from Macedonia sound like? Or is it just simply Macedonian music with Greek words, like the clips above?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Too bad it isn't complimented and accompanied by Macedonian words like it naturally should be.
                      SOM, what is the reason of it? I think i`ve read here b4 that it`s because of the Greek oppression upon these people but it`s difficult to believe. I mean yes, they would have preferred to hide their language in earlier times but why they are still muted today? For example, Anatolian immigrants sings in Turkish in their cultural gatherings since 1990s but afaik, they were singing only in Greek b4, never Turkish.



                      What does authentic Greek music from Macedonia sound like? Or is it just simply Macedonian music with Greek words, like the clips above?
                      Either those or the music of Anatolian immigrants which is not authentic Greek either. What else it can be?

                      Comment

                      • SirGeorge8600
                        Member
                        • Jun 2011
                        • 117

                        It all sounds Turkish to me...

                        Comment

                        • cultea
                          Banned
                          • Jul 2011
                          • 126

                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          What does authentic Greek music from Macedonia sound like? Or is it just simply Macedonian music with Greek words, like the clips above?
                          Well, you can look at this very same thread at my posts #11,#13,#21 and the link of #146.
                          Last edited by cultea; 07-24-2011, 01:06 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by Onur View Post
                            SOM, what is the reason of it? I think i`ve read here b4 that it`s because of the Greek oppression upon these people but it`s difficult to believe. I mean yes, they would have preferred to hide their language in earlier times but why they are still muted today? For example, Anatolian immigrants sings in Turkish in their cultural gatherings since 1990s but afaik, they were singing only in Greek b4, never Turkish.
                            For a long time it was forbidden to even utter a word in Macedonian, let alone sing in that language. Although now there is a rising trend for Macedonians to express themselves in Greece, many (mostly grkoman) people continue to use their ancestral culture in a 'Greek' way. This could be by using Greek instead of Macedonian for Macedonian songs, or pretending that dances and foods are 'Greek' when in actual fact they are Macedonian and have Macedonian names, etc.
                            Originally posted by cultea
                            Well, you can look at this very same thread at my posts #11,#13,#21 and the link of #146.
                            No, they are Macedonian songs with Greek words. The music and tunes are clearly recognised as being of the Macedonian style. I am talking about authentic Greek music from Macedonia. Authentic doesn't mean exercising the culture of others by using your own words.
                            Originally posted by Sir George
                            It all sounds Turkish to me...
                            There is definetly Turkish (and other) influence, but there is much more in your music.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • cultea
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 126

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Too bad it isn't complimented and accompanied by Macedonian words like it naturally should be.
                              I'm not sure what's natural for the specific town (Velvento). Maybe, I have to watch this short film again.

                              Originally posted by Onur View Post
                              SOM, what is the reason of it? I think I’ve read here b4 that it’s because of the Greek oppression upon these people but it`s difficult to believe. I mean yes, they would have preferred to hide their language in earlier times but why they are still muted today? For example, Anatolian immigrants sings in Turkish in their cultural gatherings since 1990s but afaik, they were singing only in Greek b4, never Turkish.
                              Who's muted? Anatolian immigrants rarely sing in Turkish either before or after 1990s. I don't think anything changed around 1990.

                              Originally posted by SirGeorge8600 View Post
                              It all sounds Turkish to me...
                              Maybe because you're irrelevant to Greek music.

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              No, they are Macedonian songs with Greek words. The music and tunes are clearly recognised as being of the Macedonian style. I am talking about authentic Greek music from Macedonia. Authentic doesn't mean exercising the culture of others by using your own words.
                              Are you suggesting you're familiar to these songs, but with non-Greek words? Which songs? I would like to see some videos. Actually, that was my question the first time I posted.
                              Your other question is impossible to be answered. Even in cases where we know when, where and why a song was written (e.g. "Gerakina" in Nigrita, 1870s) it's not certain that it wasn't related to an older tune. Traditional music is (by default) written by unknown composers, often the village where it comes from is known.
                              For music of clear and undisputed origins you'll have to look to the music of 20th Century.
                              Last edited by cultea; 07-25-2011, 10:28 AM.

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