History of the Modern Serbs

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    Link: https://www.scribd.com/doc/175611957...rednjeg-vijeka

    This article is not in English, but here are the translations of the first couple of paragraphs. Please let me know if you want more.


    Miroslav Ćosović: The Collapse of the Slavs in Illyricum in late Middle Ages

    In the late 19th and in the 20th century masses are beginning to learn in the schools the false ethno-history, which was consistent with political wishes and goals of Belgrade. Lesson in textbooks about what a disaster, even 600 years ago, happened to the real Serbs and Slavs, has never been really written. I guess in order to remain a myth.

    By Miroslav ĆOSOVIĆ

    To properly comprehend today's ethnic makeup and ethnogenesis of modern nations of Western Balkans we need to understand what in the same area occurred in the late 14th and during 15th century. Especially since the vast majority of scientists from the former Yugoslavia ignored the events of this period, although the history of this period is crucial for understanding of the process of formation of modern nations of the Western Balkans.


    --> Here is the translation of the first few sentences, of the sub-heading "Robci i nemoć Slovena" / "Robtsi and weakness of the Slavs".

    During the chaos that the Ottomans caused in Illyricum towards the end of 14th and the first half of the 15th century, there appeared locals that caught people and sold them into slavery. Such people are called "Robci" ('Robtsi').

    There are plenty of documents in the Dubrovnik archives about the "Robci". Academician Sima Cirkovic in the book "Stefan Kosača and his time" (Belgrade, 1964), writes:

    "Almost without exception all known 'Robci' are Vlachs. There are from large and well-known Katuns (Banjani, Maleševci, Bobani, Zupci), but there are many more of those that are simply called Vlachs."
    Last edited by Carlin; 06-24-2016, 02:36 PM.

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      As far as the inhabitants of Dubrovnik are concerned, they considered themselves up to the 17th century a separate ethnic group and certainly felt themselves to be the natives/autochthones of the Balkans - that they are not Slavs. Very interesting is a Letter of Dubrovnik from 1446 to the authorities of the city of Barcelona that wanted to treat the people of Dubrovnik as Italians, they wanted to charge them the so-called "Italian Customs" law. Dubrovnik rejected the claim that they are Italians and wrote as follows:

      "That has surprised us a lot and we are wondering for a number of reasons. And first of all, because we believe, that not only to you but also to the peoples of the whole world it is known and obvious, that inhabitants of Dubrovnik are not Italians, nor are they subject to Italy, but by language, and by reason of geography - Dalmatians and subject to the province of Dalmatia".

      (Vinko Foretić, Godina 1358. u povijesti Dubrovnika, JAZU, Starine, knjiga 50, Zagreb, 1960. god, str. 258).

      While the majority of people today think that this is a false self-determination, in fact, the people of Dubrovnik were right. They wanted to present themselves as indigenous, and the largest tribe of the Adriatic coast in ancient times were Dalmatians. From the darkness of ancient times Dalmatians and other tribes in the hinterland of the Adriatic coast came out with the popular name of Vlachs. In the 13th century, in a charter of Stefan the First Crowned, the word Raguseus (from Dubrovnik) from the Latin text is translated into Slavic as - Vlach. Link:



      Momčilo Spremić, in the book (CLIO, Beograd, 1999), page 776. writes:

      "Otherwise, Dubrovnik and Serbia, although neighbors were politically separate and quite different. Considering themselves as Romans, Dubrovnik still opposed the Slavs in the hinterland..."

      So: up to the first half of the 19th century Dubrovnik citizens did not consider themselves either Serbs or Croats; Dubrovnikers are largely (then and today) of Vlach / morlach origin, originating from the Balkan autochtones. At the beginning of the 17th century Mavro Orbini published the book "The Kingdom of the Slavs" which had a huge impact on all people in the Western Balkans, as well as the people of Dubrovnik. From the Orbini book Dubrovnikers too start talking about the 'SLAVIC' national story -- but the story can't change their Vlach origin.

      Comment

      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        "НАШКИ И АРБАНАШКИ" / Vasojevic tribe from south Italy -> the video is in English and Serbo-Croatian.
        Отац Петар нам је испричао занимљиву причу о својим коријенима који потичу из Лијеве Ријеке и Скадра, о "нашком" језику којим се још говори у једном дијелу С...


        Molise Croats.


        Slavomolisano dialect.


        Slavomolisano, also known as Molise Slavic or Molise Croatian, is a variety of Shtokavian Serbo-Croatian spoken by Italian Croats in the province of Campobasso, in the Molise Region of southern Italy, in the villages of Montemitro (Mundimitar), Acquaviva Collecroce (Živavoda Kruč) and San Felice del Molise (Štifilić). There are fewer than 1,000 active speakers, and fewer than 2,000 passive speakers.

        It has been preserved since a group of Croats emigrated from Dalmatia due to the advancing Ottoman Turks. The residents of these villages speak a Shtokavian dialect with an Ikavian accent, and a strong Southern Chakavian adstratum. The Molise Croats consider themselves to be Italians of South Slavic heritage who speak a Slavic language, rather than simply ethnic Slavs or Croats. Some speakers call themselves Zlavi or Harvati and call their language simply na našo ("our language").
        Last edited by Carlin; 09-30-2016, 01:18 PM.

        Comment

        • Liberator of Makedonija
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 1595

          Bump...................................Not enough discussion Serbs and Serbian
          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
            Bump...................................Not enough discussion Serbs and Serbian
            Nationalist Serbian politician Vojislav Šešelj openly states that "we Serbs have at least 30-40% Vlach ancestry".

            Šešelj: "U nama je 30-40% vlaškog"
            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


            Another example - Šešelj in the Serbian parliament of all places: "Serbs assimilated Vlachs in the 7th century AD" (towards the very end of the video he asks everyone to respect Vlachs because Vlachs are "our ancestors")
            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
            Last edited by Carlin; 04-18-2019, 12:42 AM.

            Comment

            • Liberator of Makedonija
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 1595

              Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
              Nationalist Serbian politician Vojislav Šešelj openly states that "we Serbs have at least 30-40% Vlach ancestry".

              Šešelj: "U nama je 30-40% vlaškog"
              Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


              Another example - Šešelj in the Serbian parliament of all places: "Serbs assimilated Vlachs in the 7th century AD" (towards the very end of the video he asks everyone to respect Vlachs because Vlachs are "our ancestors")
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eia6cwk8I-c
              Not sure where he gets those figures from but I always have believed there to be a large Vlach element in Serbia. I know some Vlachs from Macedonia participated in the Serbian Uprisings in the early 19th century.
              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                MIND. BLOWN.

                (I will translate this soon enough. Damn.)



                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                  Not sure where he gets those figures from but I always have believed there to be a large Vlach element in Serbia. I know some Vlachs from Macedonia participated in the Serbian Uprisings in the early 19th century.
                  He knows something.

                  I don't have a lot of time right now but here are a couple of quick translations from a Bulgarian book, by Gavriil Zanetov titled "Bulgarians on Morava - historical and ethnographic sketches".

                  - One traveler in Serbia in 1829 says that there are a great number of Bulgarians and Vlachs among the Serbs. "The numbers of Bulgarians and Vlachs settled in Serbia grows every day and it increases with new settlers." Prince Milosh at the time said that Serbia had already twice as many inhabitants as it had ten years earlier. (Vlachs mentioned here are basically Romanians, and not southern Vlachs - some of them came from Banat and Romanian Wallachia)

                  - In Pozarevac near the Danube there are many people from Macedonia, namely from Kichevo and Tetovo areas. There are also settlers from Skopje region being mentioned as well. The Macedonian settlers - even when they are Slavic-speakers - the Serbs call them "Tsintsari" or "Shiyatsi”. (Zanetov considers all Macedonians/Macedonian settlers as ethnic Bulgarians)
                  Last edited by Carlin; 04-19-2019, 03:08 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Dove
                    Member
                    • Aug 2018
                    • 170

                    Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                    MIND. BLOWN.

                    (I will translate this soon enough. Damn.)

                    “Naziv Vlasi je danas pogrdan i vezuje se za Srbe. Taj naziv, medutim, upotrebljava se u istorijskim izvorima bez pežorativne konotacije, jer označava posebnu etnografsku grupu. U srpskoj nauci, posle Stojana Novakovića, taj naziv je uprošćeno vezan za stočare. Vlasi jesu najvećim delom bili stočari, ali su stočari bili I Arbanasi i Srbi koji nisu nazivani Vlasima, a tokom vremena, Vlasi su ušli I gradove I bavili se urbanim zanimanjima. Nisu svi Vlasi (ili na italijanskom Morlaci) bili istog porekla, nisu iy istih regija došli u Dalmaciju i nisu bili samo pravoslavni... Poznati italijanski istoričar Duzepe Praga beleži da su se u drogoj polovini XIII veka na obronicima Dinarskih planina nalazili doseljeni stočari pravoslavne vere koji su još govoriti romanski.”

                    Google Translate:
                    "The name Vlachs is derogatory today and is associated with Serbs. This name, however, is used in historical sources without a pejorative connotation, because it denotes a special ethnographic group. In Serbian science, after Stojan Novaković, that name is simply related to cattle breeders. The Vlachs were mostly cattle breeders, but the cattle breeders were also Arbanasi and Serbs who were not called Vlachs, and over time, the Vlachs entered the cities and engaged in urban occupations. Not all Vlachs (or Morlaci in Italian) were of the same origin, they did not come to Dalmatia from the same regions and they were not only Orthodox ...The well-known Italian historian Duzepe (Giuseppe?) Praga notes that in the middle of the 13th century, there were immigrant cattle breeders of the Orthodox faith on the slopes of the Dinaric Mountains, who still speak Romanian. ”

                    Carlin, please fix or improve Google's effort?

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Added some minor improvements:

                      "The name Vlachs is derogatory nowadays and is associated with Serbs. This name, however, is used in historical sources without a pejorative connotation because it denotes a unique ethnic group. In Serbian historiography, after Stojan Novakovic, that name is simply tied to "cattle breeders". The Vlachs were primarily cattle breeders, but so were the Albanians and Serbs who were not called Vlachs. Over time, Vlachs migrated to the towns and engaged in urban occupations. Not all Vlachs (or Morlachs in Italian) were of the same origins, they did not come to Dalmatia from the same regions and they were not only Orthodox Christians... The well-known Italian historian Giuseppe Praga notes that in the middle of the 13th century there were immigrant cattle breeders of the Orthodox faith on the slopes of the Dinaric mountains, who still spoke a Romance language."

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        Perhaps this was a general category to describe broad vocations. Example being the way all traders were described as "Greeks".

                        Such that ... Vlachs = livestock herders, Bulgarians = farmers/grain etc, Greeks = traders
                        ? or maybe not.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          Here is the translation for the following:


                          "In Sarajevo after 1863, a society was founded among the Sarajevo Serbs, which took on the task of eradicating the pejorative name Vlach, and introducing the name Serb."

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            Perhaps this was a general category to describe broad vocations. Example being the way all traders were described as "Greeks".

                            Such that ... Vlachs = livestock herders, Bulgarians = farmers/grain etc, Greeks = traders
                            ? or maybe not.
                            In the case of Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time (and possibly some nearby regions), the "derogatory" name Vlach had the meaning of people who were Orthodox Christians, and/or members of the Orthodox Church.

                            "As early as 1530, when Habsburg official Benedict Kuripesic
                            travelled through Bosnia he was able to report that the country
                            was inhabited by three peoples. [Aside from Turks and 'old
                            Bosnians who are of the Roman Catholic faith', he reported that
                            it was also inhabited by] "Serbs who call themselves Vlachs...
                            they came from Smederevo and Belgrade". So important was the
                            Vlach element in the creation of the Bosnian Orthodox population
                            that, three centuries later, the term 'Vlach' was still being
                            used in Bosnia to mean 'member of the Orthodox Church.'...it is
                            clear that Vlachs, as a distinctive ethnic and cultural group,
                            played a major role."
                            Last edited by Carlin; 07-05-2020, 09:54 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332



                              Translation - keep in mind this is from the year 1830:


                              The school, where Danilo Medakovic learned German, received an Orthodox catechist from the young priest Mandic.

                              Medakovic told me about the practical way in which priest Mandic made all the catechumens aware that they were Serbs, and not Vlachs.
                              "What's your name?" he asked during the first class the nearest little catechumen from Lika. When he told him his name, priest Mandic asked him further: "And what are you?"

                              As soon as the catechumen answered that he was a Vlach, a good slap in the face was a reply to the answer. "You are a Serb you idiot, what Vlach," priest Mandic taught him. This lesson was so successful that no Vlach was found among the catechumens anymore, but everyone cheerfully confessed that they were Serbs.

                              Comment

                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                - "One sixteenth-century Venetian writer described the Vlachs of the Dalmatian hinterland as speaking "Latin, though in a corrupted form"; shepherds in those mountains were still using Vlach counting-words as recently as 1985. There is other evidence of bilingualism in the seventeenth century, even though the writer Ioannes Lucius (Ivan Lukic) stated that the language had disappeared by then."

                                - "There are many references to them in the records of Ragusa and Zadar from the thirteenth to fifteenth centuries. Some of these pastoral Vlachs also penetrated as far as central Bosnia, where medieval place-names in the regions of Sarajevo and Travnik indicate their presence: Vlahinja, Vlaskovo, Vlasic. And many Vlach words connected with pastoral life were absorbed into Bosnian dialects of Serbo-Croat: trze, a late-born lamb, from the Vlach tirdziu, for example, or zarica, a type of cheese, from the Vlach zara."

                                -- Noel Malcolm

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