Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

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  • Amphipolis
    Banned
    • Aug 2014
    • 1328

    For those who want to investigate Turkish/Muslim mentality

    Hagia Sophia breaks free of its chains, and Turkey saves its soul



    The spirit represented by Hagia Sophia is hidden in its conversion into a mosque as the “right of the sword (ius gladii).” Hagia Sophia becoming a mosque is one of the sole conditions for the preservation of the landmark itself and the people’s spirit, and the most important indicator that this spirit is being maintained.

    Hagia Sophia is perhaps the most important symbol of this nation’s spirit, this country’s independence and integrity, and Hagia Sophia owes this to its becoming mosque as the “right of the sword.”

    One of the most important indicators of how the awareness of history is attacked in this country, how this nation’s history was denied and locked down in a museum is the lack of a proper understanding of the relations between the spirit of Hagia Sophia, the right of the sword matter and the independence problem. Even our renowned historians are having difficulty understanding and explaining this matter. Why? Because they do not have adequate knowledge of the philosophy of history or a strong historical awareness.

    First and foremost, the “right of the sword” issue concerns peace, not war. The “right of the sword” is the guarantee of peace.


    The second important matter that is also related to this is the connection between the concepts of independence, sovereignty and the mosque being a “sanctuary of peace.”

    Hagia Sophia’s conversion is the declaration that it is a house of peace. What does house of peace mean? A house of peace means that an order where everybody feels safe will be established, that a platform, a safe and secure sanctuary of peace will be established where non-Muslims, in particular, are free to practice their own beliefs without any pressure.

    A house of peace signifies the guarantee of peace and calm there. In this sense, it is both the sole condition and sole source of a Muslim country’s sovereignty, independence, and liberation.

    Therefore, Hagia Sophia breaking its chains signifies saving Turkey’s soul.
    In short, Muslims DO have a problem with the use of the word PEACE.



    ===
    Last edited by Amphipolis; 07-13-2020, 01:20 AM.

    Comment

    • sydney
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 390

      It’s certainly a double-edged moment. However, the private side of me feels happy purely as a big up yours to the history-usurping modern Greek fanatics.

      Comment

      • Karposh
        Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 863

        The “right of the sword”, for anyone who is not aware, means the right of Muslims to convert any church they want into a mosque as a result of conquest. The “right of the sword” only applies to Muslims. As far as Muslims are concerned, a conquest made by Muslims has been sanctified by Allah. That’s why the holy sites of other religions, such as Christianity and Judaism, must be converted into mosques.

        Comment

        • VMRO
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1462

          Originally posted by Karposh View Post
          The “right of the sword”, for anyone who is not aware, means the right of Muslims to convert any church they want into a mosque as a result of conquest. The “right of the sword” only applies to Muslims. As far as Muslims are concerned, a conquest made by Muslims has been sanctified by Allah. That’s why the holy sites of other religions, such as Christianity and Judaism, must be converted into mosques.
          I wonder how Islamist Turkey would feel if all the old Turkish mosques were converted to Churches, as many were to begin with.
          Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

          Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

          Comment

          • Amphipolis
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 1328

            As far as I know the most important mosques of the world in historical, spiritual or even architectural sense are (1) Mecca and (2) Medina.

            Guess which is the most important Church for Orthodox Christianity.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Apparently, the Al-Aqsa mosque is next.

              Turkey vows to 'liberate Al-Aqsa' after turning Hagia Sophia to mosque

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                Turkey vows to 'liberate Al-Aqsa' after turning Hagia Sophia to mosque
                https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost...que-634700/amp
                Interesting and hypocritical.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  Turkey will be the death of NATO – its recent clash with fellow member France off the coast of Libya is an early symptom

                  Scott Ritter is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer. He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.

                  URL:
                  When two countries who are supposed to be military allies fall out and almost get themselves into a shooting match, you know there’s going to be trouble ahead. The problem for NATO is, this time, it may prove terminal.


                  When two countries who are supposed to be military allies fall out and almost get themselves into a shooting match, you know there’s going to be trouble ahead. The problem for NATO is, this time, it may prove terminal.
                  For a story that involves high seas skullduggery, clandestine gun-running, a punch up between people who are supposed to be friends, and an incident that could be fatal for the world’s biggest military alliance, this one started mundanely enough.

                  Back on June 7, 2020, a Tanzanian-flagged cargo ship, the Cirkin, quietly departed a Turkish port and set sail toward the Libyan port of Misurata.

                  No one is absolutely certain what its 5,800 tons of cargo was, but it’s safe to say it probably wasn’t carpets.

                  No, that wouldn’t require the three Turkish warships who escorted the Cirkin on its four-day, 1,000 nautical mile journey. It was almost certainly carrying military equipment for the Libyan army under the command of the Government of National Accord (GNA), in contravention of the UN-imposed arms embargo.

                  Things started to go wrong three days later, when a Greek helicopter, operating from a Greek frigate, the Spetsai, approached the ship and requested permission to land a boarding party for the purpose of inspecting it. The Spetsai and its helicopter were operating as part of Operation Irini, an effort in the Mediterranean undertaken by the European Council to enforce a UN arms embargo on Libya. Cirkin’s Turkish escorts rejected the request.

                  The Spetsai withdrew and monitored the Cirkin from a distance. Shortly afterwards, the cargo ship turned off its transponder.

                  A French frigate, the Courbet, operating as part of Operation Sea Guardian, a NATO maritime security operation, was then informed by NATO that the Cirkin was possibly carrying arms in violation of the UN embargo.

                  After the Cirkin failed to identify itself to the Courbet, and refused to divulge its final destination, the Courbet sought to board the vessel. At this point, one of the Turkish frigates illuminated the Courbet three separate times with its fire control radar, an indication it was intending to engage its weapons systems.

                  The Courbet withdrew, and the next day the Cirkin arrived in Misrata, where it discharged its cargo.

                  J’accuse
                  France has condemned the Turkish actions and filed an official complaint with NATO; a subsequent investigation by NATO was deemed to be “inconclusive,” although the details remain classified. For its part, Turkey has demanded an apology from France. In response, France has withdrawn its forces from Operation Sea Guardian, and demanded that NATO take seriously the task of enforcing the UN arms embargo on Libya, an act that would put it at conflict with Turkey, a NATO member.

                  This is where the incident becomes murky – it appears that Operation Sea Guardian lacked any NATO mandate to operate in support of Operation Irini, and that the decision to interdict the Cirkin was taken unilaterally by France, void of any NATO authority.

                  In the days following the June 10 incident, the European Union appealed to NATO to authorize ships assigned to Operation Sea Guardian to operate in direct support of Operation Irini’s Libyan embargo enforcement mission. However, such authorization would require the unanimous consent of all of NATO’s members, making any such authorization impossible given Turkey’s inevitable veto.

                  Dysfunctional and deeply divided
                  The circumstances that led to the confrontation between two ostensible NATO allies in the waters off Libya point to a level of dysfunction in the NATO alliance that underscores the reality that the 71-year old has outlived its utility. And that its current search for relevance outside of the post-Second World War transatlantic framework of rules-based liberal order it was created to defend, has placed the alliance on a self-destructive path where it is increasingly in conflict with itself.

                  More often than not, the culprit at the center of these disputes is Turkey, which raises the question as to the continued viability of Turkey as a NATO member, as well as the viability of the alliance itself.

                  Ever since Turkey joined NATO, in February 1952, it has been the odd man out. Its military importance to the alliance was immense – by bringing Turkey onboard, NATO not only secured its southern flank with the Soviet Union, but also insured that Turkey could never align itself with Moscow down the road.

                  In exchange, however, NATO had to overlook many issues that, in any other environment, proved detrimental to Turkey’s being a NATO member. The military-on-military aspect of the Turkish-NATO relationship was, at its founding, rock solid – indeed, in 1950, Ankara had dispatched a brigade of Turkish troops to fight alongside the US and the UN in defense of South Korea.

                  Military coups and purchases of Russian arms
                  But the Turkish military was a double-edged sword; in 1960, the Turkish military orchestrated a coup against the democratically elected Prime Minister Adnan Menderes, who was subsequently executed by a military tribunal in 1961. While the Turkish military restored civilian rule in 1965, it stepped in again in 1971 to oust the government of Suleiman Demirel, and again in 1980, overthrowing another Demirel-led government.

                  In 1998, the Turkish military undertook what has been called a “postmodern” coup, demanding the resignation of the government of Necmettin Erbakan without resorting to the actual suspension of the constitution.

                  The civil-military discord inherent in this string of coups is representative of the fundamental internal conflict between secular and Islamist forces inside Turkey that has been ongoing since the founding of the modern Republic.

                  The US and other NATO allies turned a blind eye to the Turkish military’s proclivity for overthrowing duly-elected civilian governments because the system these interventions preserved – secular, pro-West governments – were seen as a better alternative to populist Islamist movements that did not share core NATO values.

                  The election of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a follower of the ousted Erbakan, as Turkey’s prime minister in 2003 set Turkey on a collision course with NATO and the West. Erdogan is an unapologetic Islamist whose pan-Ottoman vision of Turkey’s role in the world clashes with the traditional transatlantic script followed by NATO.

                  In July 2016, when the Turkish military undertook a failed effort to oust Erdogan, many of the perpetrators were officers with pro-NATO tendencies who objected to Erdogan’s Islamist agenda. Since the failed coup, Erdogan has reshaped the Turkish military so that its leadership is aligned ideologically with his vision of Turkey’s place in the world – a vision which often operates in opposition to NATO objectives.

                  Perhaps the most visible manifestation of this Turkish-NATO incompatibility is Turkey’s purchase of Russian S-400 surface-to-air missiles. The US has threatened Turkey with sanctions over this and has terminated Ankara’s participation in the production of the F-35 fighter.

                  Other areas of friction include Turkey’s invasion and occupation of northern Syria, and its subsequent conflict with US-backed Kurdish forces operating there; Turkey’s ongoing military operation in northern Iraq, done without the permission of the Iraqi government; and Turkey’s support of the Government of National Accord (GNA) in Libya.

                  It is this support to the GNA, which comes in the form of arms shipments and manpower support, which precipitated the naval incident with France and has Turkey on a collision course with NATO today.

                  The NATO alliance has been struggling with relevance since the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. The many fractures that exist within the alliance – the new “East bloc” versus “old Europe,” rule of law proponents versus autocratic governments, transatlantic originalists versus global expansion – have been papered over by the consensus-based organization in an effort to project unity. But the inherent incompatibility of Erdogan’s pan-Ottomanism (the driving force behind Turkey’s Libyan intervention) with the rules-based “liberal order” that NATO purports to espouse, is not so easily swept under the proverbial carpet.

                  The incident between France and Turkey exposes the fundamental weakness of NATO, an organization desperately in search of relevance. The reality is that Turkey is the weakest link in this alliance, and its continued presence represents a poisonous pill that will ultimately prove to be the death of it. The only question is, how soon?

                  Comment

                  • Amphipolis
                    Banned
                    • Aug 2014
                    • 1328

                    Of course it's not true that Hagia Sophia was sold to Turkey or that the Christians of Constantinople converted to Islam.

                    Last edited by Amphipolis; 07-18-2020, 05:02 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Amphipolis
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 1328

                      The Republic of Turkey under Erdogan's leadership is "a rising star and indispensable source of hope for Muslims and the oppressed," Shaqir Fetahu, deputy chair of the Islamic Religious Union of the Republic of Macedonia, said in his letter.

                      Comment

                      • tchaiku
                        Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 786

                        Many of the Muslims would make practing Christianity and non Islamic religions as private as having sex if they had the chance. Keep your "wrong religion" to yourself mentality.

                        I heard that the Eastern Roman was taxing it's critizens to death, which pushed the Islamization and the Turkification of Anatolia.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                          I heard that the Eastern Roman was taxing it's critizens to death, which pushed the Islamization and the Turkification of Anatolia.
                          Where did you hear that?
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                            Of course it's not true that Hagia Sophia was sold to Turkey or that the Christians of Constantinople converted to Islam.

                            Perhaps not for the specific case of the Christians of Constantinople but the phenomenon of conversion to Islam is well documented.

                            This is the report of the Venetian ambassador Lorenzo Bernardo from 1592, which states that there are many "bastard Turks" who are mostly "descended from Christian renegades who did not understand the Muslim religion."


                            Furthermore, an interesting identity phenomenon characterizes Ottoman Muslims in the first century after the Fall. During the period 1453-1600, Ottoman Muslims often identified themselves as Rūmī ~ "Muslims of the land of the Romans" and sometimes as Rūm oğlani = "sons of the Romans" (something like "the Islamized descendants of the Romans"), when they wanted to distinguished from other Muslims such as the Persians (Acem), the Arabs (Arab) and the Mamluks of Egypt (Misirli = "Egyptian").

                            Oğlani = "sons, children, boys" is homonymous with the patronymic suffix -oglou = "his son" and with the term iç oğlan> tsoglani.

                            This custom is never found in official Ottoman documents, but was widespread enough for Muslims in other areas to observe. So in 1589, the Moroccan ambassador to Constantinople wrote about the city:

                            "This city was the capital of the country of the Romans (Rome), the seat of their empire and the city of the emperors. The Muslims who now live in this city identify themselves as Rūm, and prefer this origin to their normal [meaning Turkish]. Among them, they call their characteristic calligraphy khatt rūmī."

                            Comment

                            • Amphipolis
                              Banned
                              • Aug 2014
                              • 1328

                              Another Turkish article explaining their views.



                              Today is the day of defeat for those who say, "Turkey’s oppression started in 1453."

                              Today is the day those who strove for Istanbul to meet the same fate as Andalusia lose.

                              Today is the day the plans made by those trying to shrink Turkey and carve it into pieces collapse.

                              Today is the day tens of thousands of people race to Hagia Sophia, bearing a magnificent history to the present, and announcing to the world our political legacy.

                              'We' are both Ottoman, Byzantine. We are the Seljuks, we are Turkey

                              Today is not only the day that not only the Sultan Mehmets of Turkey rejoice, but also the day the Alparslans, the Kılınçarslans, the Sultan Selims, the Sultan Süleymans, and those whose blood were shed for the sake of every inch of land in this vast region, who made this territory our homeland, who made this nation a superpower rejoice.

                              Today is the day the continuity of the chain of great leaders is cemented with President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the continuity of great states is cemented with Turkey.

                              Today is the day we say "we" are both Ottoman and Byzantine, we are the Seljuks and the Republic, we are Istanbul, we are Jerusalem, we are the Balkans, we are Mesapotamia, we are Anatolia and the Caucasus as well.

                              The Ottoman Empire became a global power with Istanbul’s conquest. Turkey will do the same with Hagia Sophia

                              Hagia Sophia is not only a source of joy, it is not only a sentiment. Hagia Sophia represents power. It represents a globalizing power today as it did 567 years ago.

                              Upon the conquest of Istanbul, Hagia Sophia’s conversion into a mosque and the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire became a global power; in fact, it became the world's greatest power.

                              The significance and symbolism of Hagia Sophia being opened as a mosque today is no different to our presence in the Mediterranean, the Aegean, Syria, Iraq, Libya, and the Persian Gulf. Altogether, they make up our grand aim.

                              They prepared a destruction plan to turn Hagia Sophia into a church, Istanbul into Andalusia

                              A multinational intervention was launched four years ago to divide Turkey. Had the intervention been successful, Hagia Sophia would have been converted from a museum into a church today – the most critical step to detach Istanbul from Anatolia. That is when its fate resembling Andalusia’s would kick in.

                              We were going to be surrounded, sieged and banished from the Iran-East Mediterranean line, from all of the Mediterranean, from the Aegean. Just as they have been doing now, by getting Armenia to attack Azerbaijan, they were going to close off the Turkey’s eastern gate as well. This was not a plan to banish us back to Central Asia but rather a plan of destruction.

                              We are the sole nation capable of re-writing history once every four years. We broke all their sieges, and now we are building a great power in the center. It is because all this transpired, because all this was done that the Hagia Sophia decision became a possibility.

                              The entire region overjoyed

                              Today is July 24, 2020:

                              All of Anatolia, the Balkans, the Caucasus, Central Asia, South Asia, Africa, the Arab region, regardless of what their regimes say, are overjoyed.

                              Those who have been experiencing nothing but grief for the last century are now rejoicing. Those who have suffered defeat after defeat for a century are now experiencing victory.

                              Today is an uprising, a challenge against the Ottoman Empire’s collapse, the 20th century’s pro-tutelage period. Today is changing that history in the first quarter of the 21st century. It is the proclamation of the end of the regression and tutelage era and the start of Turkey’s new rising era.

                              1,000-year-old history

                              A country, a nation, a state raking up the history on the last thousand years, setting it on the table signals that it is re-evaluating its plans.

                              You no longer hear theories such as “front country,” “garrison country,” “bridge country,” Atlantic fronts’ “outpost country,” “green zone.” You will never hear them again.

                              This will signify nothing other than the illusions adopted by and ingrained in the minds of a very small group in Turkey.

                              Last defense resisted, last Crusades have stopped again in Anatolia. Third great shock over

                              The region’s last defense line resisted. Its last fortress remains standing. Now, a power domain is being built with this fortress at the center.

                              The last of the Crusades were stopped in Anatolia once again. The region’s “third great rise” after the “third great shock” has started against those who turned the “war against Islam” into a global ambition and started a new sort of “Crusader War” through the Israeli far-right and neocons following the Cold War era.

                              May it be blessed

                              Just as they turned the symbol of Istanbul’s conquest into a museum during the early Republican period, just as they imposed this and succeeded, today is the day these impositions and compulsions end.

                              Victory is ours and we are a nation that is accustomed with victory. The brackets of the last century, during which we were doomed to defeat, have been closed.

                              May it be blessed.

                              Notice how those who said, “Turkey’s oppression started in 1453,” disintegrated! But history is over for them.

                              Comment

                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Includes interview of Orhan Pamuk

                                00:00 Istanbul's Hagia Sophia is holding Muslim Friday prayers for the first time since since President Recep Tayyip Erdogan signed a decree converting it fr...

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