Just How 'Greek' Was The Byzantine Empire???

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332


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    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Same book ^^





      Page 101
      Last edited by Carlin; 09-22-2019, 11:52 AM.

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      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        "Byzantine fleet" - This is what the people called the Ottoman fleet during the Turkish occupation.

        One can see the negative memory of the Byzantine rule reflected in the collective memory of the people (the document seems to be referring to the island of Samos, and area of Izmir).



        Also, the Turks were "shaking off attacks of the Labs (Λιάπηδες)" coming from Samos, meaning the Samian attacks of the Asia Minor beach. Historically the Labs were Albanians and followers of the Orthodox Church but many converted to Islam during Ottomon rule, with the bulk of conversion occurring in the 18th century.

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        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          Julian was Roman Emperor from 361 to 363.

          URL:


          This is what Julian himself stated:

          ... I myself am descended from the Mysians, who are absolutely inelegant, boorish, austere, uncivilized, and obstinately tenacious of their opinions, - all which are people of lamentable rusticity.


          URL:

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          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            "Vlachogoths" (Valagothi)

            Nennius was a 9th-century Welsh writer who wrote the Latin work Historia Brittonum. The interesting thing about this story is that it defines the Ostrogoths of Italy as "Vlachogoths" (Valagothi = Goths of "Vlachia" or Italy; we know of the Polish term Włochy for Italy), a term that Nennius almost certainly borrowed from the Germanic-speaking Saxons. In the minds of the Germanic-speaking peoples, Italy was the primitive "Vlachia" because it is the cradle of the Roman Empire, and Latin-speakers.

            URL:


            17 Aliud experimentum inveni de isto Bruto ex veteribus libris veterum nostrorum. tres filii Noe diviserunt orbem in tres partes post diluvium. Sem in Asia, Cham in Africa, Iafeth in Europa dilataverunt terminos suos. primus homo venit ad Europam de genere Iafeth Alanus cum tribus filiis suis, quorum nomina sunt Hessitio, Armenon, Negue. Hessitio autem habuit filios quattuor: hi sunt Francus, Romanus, Britto, Albanus. Armenon autem habuit quinque filios: Gothus, Valagothus, Gebidus, Burgundus, Longobardus. Negue autem habuit tres filios: Vandalus, Saxo, Boguarus. ab Hisitione autem ortae sunt quattuor gentes Franci, Latini, Albani et Britti. ab Armenone autem quinque: Gothi, Valagothi, Gebidi, Burgundi, Longobardi. a Neguio vero quattuor Boguarii, Vandali, Saxones et Turingi. istae autem gentes subdivisae sunt per totam Europam. Alanus autem, ut aiunt, filius fuit Fetebir, filii Ougomun, filii Thoi, filii Boib, filii Simeon, filii Mair, filii Ethach, filii Aurthach, filii Echthet, filii Oth, filii Abir, filii Ra, filii Ezra, filii Izrau, filii Baath, filii Iobaath, filii Iovan, filii Iafeth, filii Noe, filii Lamech, filii Matusalae, filii Enoch, filii Iareth, filii Malalehel, filii Cainan, filii Enos, filii Seth, filii Adam, filii dei vivi. hanc peritiam inveni ex traditione veterum.




            Walhakurne = Roman/Gallic grain

            *Walhaz is a reconstructed Proto-Germanic word meaning "Roman", "Romance-speaker", or "Celtic-speaker".

            It is attested in the Roman Iron Age from an inscription on one of the Tjurkö bracteates, where walhakurne "Roman/Gallic grain" is apparently a kenning for "gold" (referring to the bracteate itself). The Tjurkö 1 bracteate is dated to the Germanic Iron Age between 400 and 650 AD.

            There is a consensus that walha-kurne is a compound word referring to the bracteate itself, and that walha (cognate with Modern English Welsh) means "foreign, non-Germanic" - here perhaps more specifically "Roman" or "Gallic."

            URLs:

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            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Ibn Khaldun (1332 – 1406) was a leading Tunisian Muslim historiographer and historian. He is widely considered as a forerunner of the modern disciplines of historiography, sociology, economics, and demography.

              URL:


              According to Ibn Khaldun (English translation by Daniel G. König):

              "The Arabs of this period did not know the Franks. In Syria (al-Shām), they had only fought the Byzantines (al-Rūm). Because of this, they believed that they [the Byzantines] ruled over all Christian peoples (umam al-naṣrāniyya), and that Heraclius (Hiraql) was the ruler over the entire Christian world (al-naṣrāniyya). Consequently, they imposed the name al-Rūm on all Christian peoples."

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              • tchaiku
                Member
                • Nov 2016
                • 786

                Modern Greek legends about ancient Greeks.

                Here’s what the villagers near Delphi thought, for instance (“page 39”):

                "The Mylords (= English aristocrats on the Grand Tour) are no Christians: nobody has ever seen them make the sign of the cross. They are descended from the old pagans, the Adelphians, who kept their treasure in a fortress called Adelphi “Brothers”, named after the two brother princes who had built it. When the Virgin Mary and Christ came to this land and all the people around became Christians, the Adelphians thought it best if they left; and they left for the West and took all their riches with them. The Mylords are their descendants, and that’s why they come now on pilgrimage to these stones."

                Or from Epirus (“page 35–36”)

                "In the olden times, people were huge. Hugest of all were the Hellenes. They were evil people, so God sent some huge mosquitoes with iron stings to hunt them down. People would only go out at night, when the mosquitoes slept, and at dawn before sun-up, and in the evening right after sun-down. The rest of the day they’d sit underground. They’d built dwellings there where just one person would fit; they had their bread, their water in bottles, their lamps, and whatever else they needed. But they couldn’t live shut in all day, and so they perished one by one. Nowadays people dig and find their houses, and stone chests. Within, they find their bones, lamps, pitchers, and whatever else."

                And the Parthenon is not exempt. No, not the tale of the Caryatids crying when Lord Elgin stole one of them (though that’s there too). But of the steps up the Acropolis, published in 1871 (“page 26”).

                In Athens people believe that the tall stairs up to the Parthenon are a sure testimony of how large the Hellenes were. They say that the Hellenes would go up and down those stairs with no effort. They are unaware that those stairs were used for people to rest, and that there were smaller steps placed among the larger steps for people going uphill.

                Παρατήρηση Σπανίων Πολιτικών Ειδών Πολιτική, Κοινωνία, Οικονομία , ΜΜΕ, Σάτιρα
                Last edited by tchaiku; 03-30-2020, 09:53 AM.

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                • Amphipolis
                  Banned
                  • Aug 2014
                  • 1328

                  This seems to be very important. I'll check if it is in Wikipedia.

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                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                    This seems to be very important. I'll check if it is in Wikipedia.
                    Then it will be a fact, same as much of the Greek ramblings I imagine.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Amphipolis, would you be so kind as to add the following to Wikipedia and cite accordingly?

                      1) URL - Ancient Greeks in the Modern Greek Folk Tradition, Pavlína Šípová:


                      "In the period of the Greek Middle Ages — if it is possible to apply that term at all with reference to Greece — there was no affinity in the collective mind of Greeks for ancient Greece: the term Hellene/Greek denoted strictly a pagan, and this meaning of the word has been preserved, e.g. in some areas of Crete, right to the end of the 20th century: If one talks about Hellenes (Greeks) in Sfakia in Crete, what he means is idolaters. The word Hellene is documented in Albanian as well: Elin-I, a designation for a heathen."

                      2) URL - ROMANITY, OR BARBARITY?, Anastasios Philippides:
                      (BEING CONTINUED FROM 6/02/18) Chapter 2- So, Hellenes, or Romans? In this chapter, we will take a short historical stroll to the sources, in order to clear up the confusion that the later ideologi…



                      "What most of the people believed about the “Hellenes”, before becoming “enlightened” by western Europeans, has been recorded by I. Th. Kakrides in his invaluable study on folklore “The Ancient Hellenes in the neo-Hellenic Popular Tradition”. Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century – believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants. This is the way they also explained the existence of the oversized monuments that used to abound in our land.

                      These ancient people were admired for their strength (in 19th-century Cephalonia island, Kakrides mentions that the inhabitants had an expression “hey, this guy is like a Hellene!”), but they certainly did not identify themselves with them. Besides, the author referred to them as “Hellenes” and not “Ancient Hellenes”, obviously because there was no chance that they would be confused with another contemporary nation."
                      Last edited by Carlin; 03-30-2020, 07:40 PM.

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                      • tchaiku
                        Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 786

                        I am all for removing crap from Wikipedia for as along it's done equally for everyone.

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                        • Amphipolis
                          Banned
                          • Aug 2014
                          • 1328

                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          the term Hellene/Greek denoted strictly a pagan, and this meaning of the word has been preserved[/B], e.g. in some areas of Crete, right to the end of the 20th century: If one talks about Hellenes (Greeks) in Sfakia in Crete, what he means is idolaters. The word Hellene is documented in Albanian as well: Elin-I, a designation for a heathen."
                          And then you check the article and you find out these most impressive and unbelievable parts are the ones with no references. The first part is impossible for 20th Century Sfakia, for... there are no "idolaters" anymore and no one would call them Hellenes in Greece anyway.

                          I can't speak Albanian, but the second part, for some reason, smells bullshit too.

                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century – believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants. This is the way they also explained the existence of the oversized monuments that used to abound in our land.

                          These ancient people were admired for their strength (in 19th-century Cephalonia island, Kakrides mentions that the inhabitants had an expression “hey, this guy is like a Hellene!”), but they certainly did not identify themselves with them. Besides, the author referred to them as “Hellenes” and not “Ancient Hellenes”, obviously because there was no chance that they would be confused with another contemporary nation."
                          Hell no! The exact phrase

                          "Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century – believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants"

                          is not just wrong, or 99% wrong, but 100% wrong. The era of (around) 1900 is well recorded, and there was nobody who believed that... ancient Greeks were giants. There are ancient Greek myths and there were indeed legends in antiquity including giants, but that is a totally different thing than the above phrase.

                          People DID believe in the grandeur of ancient Greeks and their... (not gigantic) but bright achievement, they didn't believe in the existence of giants.

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                          • tchaiku
                            Member
                            • Nov 2016
                            • 786

                            Did the lower class (i.e the vast majority of Greece) knew about the grandeur of ancient Greeks in 1821? Many of those myths might have roots in the Dark Ages when ''Hellene'' was used as an inslut for a pagan.

                            I am pretty sure you could find some few people in Trebizond indentifying with the old Greeks, not only in the Ottoman Period but also in the Medieval times but it does not change the fact that the ethnic compostion of the Empire was in fact overwhelmingly Lazo-Armenian and even the Greek speakers (that were to become) had a Roman indentity.

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                            • Amphipolis
                              Banned
                              • Aug 2014
                              • 1328

                              Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                              Did the lower class (i.e the vast majority of Greece) knew about the grandeur of ancient Greeks in 1821?
                              Certainly YES. The real question is WHAT EXACTLY they knew about it.

                              It becomes more complicated if you see this video with modern (forcibly educated) Greeks, with full free acccess to all knowledge, information and data, that cannot find Greece in the world map. Their answers (why do you think you cannot find it?) are even more showing on their stupidity and ignorance.

                              http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etrFkxe1eSY

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                              • tchaiku
                                Member
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 786

                                OK, but how does that contradict the fairytale of Greek villagers near Delphi, especially considering they associated old Greeks with the Westerners.

                                Even old Greeks attributed some of their works of their Bronze Age predecessors to Cyclopes:
                                ''There still remain, however, parts of the city wall [of Mycenae], including the gate, upon which stand lions. These, too, are said to be the work of the Cyclopes, who made for Proetus the wall at Tiryns. (2.16.5) Going on from here and turning to the right, you come to the ruins of Tiryns. ... The wall, which is the only part of the ruins still remaining, is a work of the Cyclopes made of unwrought stones, each stone being so big that a pair of mules could not move the smallest from its place to the slightest degree. Long ago small stones were so inserted that each of them binds the large blocks firmly together.(2.25.8)''

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