Origins of IMRO ?

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  • Chicho Makedonski
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2019
    • 47

    #16
    The confusing thing is the Macedonians wanted no Bulgarian influence and wanted to get rid off the Bulgarian churches and replace them with Macedonian ones, also to make Macedonian an officially recognised language and offical language of the country once freed, not Bulgarian which is what the Bulgarians aimed for. So why would the Macedonians support such San Stefano Bulgaria when they clearly opposed it and any Bulgarian influence in Macedonia (atleast most of them).

    I do not know much about him, so i am only speculating.

    I think he was either an ethnic Bulgarian that wanted a free self governing Macedonia but with a main Bulgarian component to keep all (Bulgarian churches and schools) or he was an ethnic Macedonian that was confused and fell for the Bulgarian propaganda that the Macedonians and Bulgarians were the same people, explaining why he first supposedly wanted a San Stefano Bulgaria and basically had pro Bulgarian thoughts.

    Either way we know that the Macedonians wanted a free self governing Macedonia for the Macedonians (both ethnic and regional Macedonians) where they would be the leaders of the country, Macedonian language to be the offical language of the country, to be free of foreign Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian influence and main components, whereby the growth of Macedonian churches and later on schools would take place. Ultimately to drive out the mainly forced Bulgarian ones that spreaded their propaganda to suite the needs of their peoples and interests regarding making Macedonia and its population pro Bulgarians so a greater Bulgaria would be more easily achieved even though San Stefano Bulgaria didn’t happen, Macedonia with a main Bulgarian component would’ve acted like a puppet state to Bulgaria and such borders would not of needed to happen instantly but future annexation would’ve been inevitable.

    Luckily most ethnic Macedonians with the regional ones that supported the Macedonian cause wanted no such Bulgarian component and opposed it, otherwise the future would’ve been even duller for us Macedonians.

    Comment

    • VMRO
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1462

      #17
      Originally posted by Chicho Makedonski View Post
      The confusing thing is the Macedonians wanted no Bulgarian influence and wanted to get rid off the Bulgarian churches and replace them with Macedonian ones, also to make Macedonian an officially recognised language and offical language of the country once freed, not Bulgarian which is what the Bulgarians aimed for. So why would the Macedonians support such San Stefano Bulgaria when they clearly opposed it and any Bulgarian influence in Macedonia (atleast most of them).

      I do not know much about him, so i am only speculating.

      I think he was either an ethnic Bulgarian that wanted a free self governing Macedonia but with a main Bulgarian component to keep all (Bulgarian churches and schools) or he was an ethnic Macedonian that was confused and fell for the Bulgarian propaganda that the Macedonians and Bulgarians were the same people, explaining why he first supposedly wanted a San Stefano Bulgaria and basically had pro Bulgarian thoughts.

      Either way we know that the Macedonians wanted a free self governing Macedonia for the Macedonians (both ethnic and regional Macedonians) where they would be the leaders of the country, Macedonian language to be the offical language of the country, to be free of foreign Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian influence and main components, whereby the growth of Macedonian churches and later on schools would take place. Ultimately to drive out the mainly forced Bulgarian ones that spreaded their propaganda to suite the needs of their peoples and interests regarding making Macedonia and its population pro Bulgarians so a greater Bulgaria would be more easily achieved even though San Stefano Bulgaria didn’t happen, Macedonia with a main Bulgarian component would’ve acted like a puppet state to Bulgaria and such borders would not of needed to happen instantly but future annexation would’ve been inevitable.

      Luckily most ethnic Macedonians with the regional ones that supported the Macedonian cause wanted no such Bulgarian component and opposed it, otherwise the future would’ve been even duller for us Macedonians.
      A great book to read is Petar Pop Arsov's book "Стамболовштината во Македонија и нејзините претставници" where he talks about how the Bulgarians tried to manipulate the Macedonians in the Solun high school.

      I believe he was expelled with other students from the Solun high school for wanting the Macedonian language to be used instead of the imposed Bulgarian.
      Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

      Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1595

        #18
        Originally posted by VMRO View Post
        A great book to read is Petar Pop Arsov's book "Стамболовштината во Македонија и нејзините претставници" where he talks about how the Bulgarians tried to manipulate the Macedonians in the Solun high school.

        I believe he was expelled with other students from the Solun high school for wanting the Macedonian language to be used instead of the imposed Bulgarian.
        1888-89 school year I believe. There was essentially a revolution in the school and many were expelled, including future leaders of the revolutionary movement.
        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Chicho Makedonski
          Junior Member
          • Feb 2019
          • 47

          #19
          Originally posted by VMRO View Post
          A great book to read is Petar Pop Arsov's book "Стамболовштината во Македонија и нејзините претставници" where he talks about how the Bulgarians tried to manipulate the Macedonians in the Solun high school.

          I believe he was expelled with other students from the Solun high school for wanting the Macedonian language to be used instead of the imposed Bulgarian.
          So you believe he was an ethnic Macedonian that fell for the Bulgarian propaganda and thus had pro Bulgarian views as he supposedly stated the reason for a self governing Macedonia was because San Stefano Bulgaria wasn’t achievable ?

          Still isn’t clear for me. Why would he state such thing and have pro Bulgarian views if he wanted Macedonian language instead of Bulgarian in the school and also the fact that Macedonians wanted a free Macedonia with no main Bulgarian component and no foreign influence ? It just doesn’t add up. It’s either just a fake Bulgarian created quote or he was just a confused individual.

          Comment

          • Liberator of Makedonija
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 1595

            #20
            Yeah there is a lot of cofusion over this Chicho. I would love to know the original source cited.
            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

            Comment

            • VMRO
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1462

              #21
              Originally posted by Chicho Makedonski View Post
              So you believe he was an ethnic Macedonian that fell for the Bulgarian propaganda and thus had pro Bulgarian views as he supposedly stated the reason for a self governing Macedonia was because San Stefano Bulgaria wasn’t achievable ?

              Still isn’t clear for me. Why would he state such thing and have pro Bulgarian views if he wanted Macedonian language instead of Bulgarian in the school and also the fact that Macedonians wanted a free Macedonia with no main Bulgarian component and no foreign influence ? It just doesn’t add up. It’s either just a fake Bulgarian created quote or he was just a confused individual.
              Are we talking about Hristo Tatarchev or Petar Pop Arsov?

              My post was about Petar Pop Arsov.
              Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

              Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

              Comment

              • Chicho Makedonski
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2019
                • 47

                #22
                Originally posted by VMRO View Post
                Are we talking about Hristo Tatarchev or Petar Pop Arsov?

                My post was about Petar Pop Arsov.
                Znam, I was talking about Tatarchev.

                Comment

                • Liberator of Makedonija
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 1595

                  #23
                  VMRO established a branch in Adrianople around 1895 due to the belief that the conditions there were similar to in Macedonia and therefore saw the opportunity to establish a united front. Anyone know why no similar action was taken in the so-called "Old Serbia". I know there was some 'Committee for the Liberation of Old Serbia and Macedonia' established in Skopje but not aware of any attempts by VMRO to collaborate with the movement out there. What made "Old Serbia" different to Adrianople in this case?
                  I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                  Comment

                  • maco2envy
                    Member
                    • Jan 2015
                    • 288

                    #24
                    What is the geographic extent of "Old Serbia"? "Old Serbia" sounds like a propaganda term to lay claims on the Shop region, Kosovo and northern fringes of Macedonia.

                    Comment

                    • Liberator of Makedonija
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 1595

                      #25
                      Originally posted by maco2envy View Post
                      What is the geographic extent of "Old Serbia"? "Old Serbia" sounds like a propaganda term to lay claims on the Shop region, Kosovo and northern fringes of Macedonia.
                      Pretty much summed it up. Was the region north of Macedonia that was still under Ottoman rule. I believe all of it is apart of Serbia now (Kosovo debatable).
                      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                      Comment

                      • VMRO
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1462

                        #26
                        Old Serbia i believe reflected Kosovo/Sandzak region and parts of Macedonia depending on which Serbian philologist/Linguist you use. Eg: Vuk Karadzic is a prime example as it most likely him who first penned this term for that area.

                        Old Serbia can also be claimed as far as Thessaly due to Dusans empire once stretching to there.
                        Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                        Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          #27
                          Originally posted by VMRO View Post
                          Old Serbia i believe reflected Kosovo/Sandzak region and parts of Macedonia depending on which Serbian philologist/Linguist you use. Eg: Vuk Karadzic is a prime example as it most likely him who first penned this term for that area.

                          Old Serbia can also be claimed as far as Thessaly due to Dusans empire once stretching to there.
                          Any theories as to why VMRO never established a presence there as they did with Adrianople?
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • VMRO
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1462

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                            Any theories as to why VMRO never established a presence there as they did with Adrianople?
                            I think maybe it was to do with the accepted borders of Macedonia in those times. Another factor might be that the churches which Macedonians controlled where not that established far north.

                            They might've expanded had the Serbs not pushed their influence after failing to expand North/West so they looked to go South.
                            Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                            Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

                            Comment

                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1595

                              #29
                              Originally posted by VMRO View Post
                              I think maybe it was to do with the accepted borders of Macedonia in those times. Another factor might be that the churches which Macedonians controlled where not that established far north.

                              They might've expanded had the Serbs not pushed their influence after failing to expand North/West so they looked to go South.
                              All my thoughts exactly.
                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

                              • Liberator of Makedonija
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2014
                                • 1595

                                #30
                                I still have many uneasy feelings regarding Hristo Tatarčev, I feel his actions ran in contradiction to his words. I dislike his referral to us as "Macedonian Bulgarians" in his article on Ilinden in 1933, which was written in Italy so the excuse of Bulgarian censors can't be used here. I understand such terminology wasn't uncommon for the time, but you would expect more from one of the founding members of the Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation - I am not aware of the other founding members or later major figures referring to us as "Bulgarians" with such frequency and consistency as Tatarčev. He's also the only original organisation member I know who joined the Bulgarian Constitutional Clubs during the Young Turk Revolution, as oppose to the People's Federative Party. I know there are suggestions he maintained contact with Ivan Mihajlov during the 1940s as well, which only adds to the suspicions.
                                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                                Comment

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