"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

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  • tchaiku
    Member
    • Nov 2016
    • 786

    Do you know that new arrivals of Vlachs also migrated to Greece during the Ottoman period?

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    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
      Do you know that new arrivals of Vlachs also migrated to Greece during the Ottoman period?
      Different groups and tribes of both Vlachs and Albanians migrated into the Peloponnese many times over.

      Deutsche Rundschau - Rudolf Pechel, Volume 30, Parts 3-4, year 1904.

      Page 208: "Down to Cape Matapan and even to Crete, reach the Vlach colonies."
      Last edited by Carlin; 06-07-2018, 11:25 PM.

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      • Carlin
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 3332

        1) In the South, the "Vlach" penetration carried the swarms of their race until Taygetus, the Maïnotes or Tzakones.

        Histoire des Roumains et de la romanité orientale: Les maîtres de la terre (jusqu'à l'an mille), Nicolae Iorga, 1937

        URL:


        2) Tzakones, who live in ancient Cynuria, are probably descendants of Slavic settlers.

        Revue de geographie - Volume 26 - Page 316, 1890

        URL:
        Last edited by Carlin; 06-16-2018, 07:22 AM.

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        • tchaiku
          Member
          • Nov 2016
          • 786

          Tsakonians share no DNA with the Proto-Slavs.

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          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
            Tsakonians share no DNA with the Proto-Slavs.
            Not that it bothers me either way, but what type of sources can you produce to back up your claim?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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            • tchaiku
              Member
              • Nov 2016
              • 786

              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Not that it bothers me either way, but what type of sources can you produce to back up your claim?
              Proto-Slavs as in Russians, Ukrainians and Poles.

              Here is the study;


              Note that I don't agree with this study, it seems very influenced by political agenda, as we can see they did not test Albanians and South Slavs and cited Fallmerayer selectivity. But it should help regarding the Slavic origin of Tsacones.

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              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                Proto-Slavs as in Russians, Ukrainians and Poles.

                Here is the study;


                Note that I don't agree with this study, it seems very influenced by political agenda, as we can see they did not test Albanians and South Slavs and cited Fallmerayer selectivity. But it should help regarding the Slavic origin of Tsacones.
                Russians, Ukrainians and Poles aren't "Proto-Slavs". And it isn't really surprising that those three groups don't have a genetic closeness to people in the Peloponnese given the distance between them. I will read this study further and come up with a more detailed response when I have some time.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  - By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians.

                  - The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42% with Andalusians from 53 to 62% and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%.


                  Let me repeat that: the shared ancestry with the Italians goes as high as 96%, which is a staggering figure (while the shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is less than 15%). It's also significant that the shared ancestry with the French goes up to 42%.


                  PS:

                  Unrelated comment, but it is interesting that in the Sardinian language the word for 'language' is limba, while the word for 'water' is 'abba'.

                  This guide to Sardinia opens with a 16-page section featuring photography of the island's highlights from the beaches of the southern coast to the evocative prehistoric ruins of the nuraghi. The following chapters provide informative accounts of all the sights, from the lively capital of Cagliari to the Smerelda coast. There are reviews of the best places to eat, drink and sleep in every region and practical advice on exploring the island whether by bicycle, car, boat or on foot. Finally, there is comprehensive coverage of Sardinia's history, culture, art and festivals.


                  Guess what the words for 'language' and 'water' are in Vlach?
                  Last edited by Carlin; 08-18-2018, 08:40 PM.

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                  • tchaiku
                    Member
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 786

                    Ever wondered where did Vlachs of Greece come from?

                    In my opinion, they are latinised Thracians, Illyrians and southern Dacians that poured into Thessaly during the expasion of the Bulgarian empire. But they gradually flooded mainland Greece during the centuries, mainly 10th, 11th and 12th. Other waves of Vlachs came later but those that I mentioned were the largest.
                    Last edited by tchaiku; 07-15-2018, 02:51 PM.

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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                      Ever wondered where did Vlachs of Greece come from?

                      In my opinion, they are latinised Thracians, Illyrians and southern Dacians that poured into Thessaly during the expasion of the Bulgarian empire. But they gradually flooded mainland Greece during the centuries, mainly 10th, 11th and 12th. Other waves of Vlachs came later but those that I mentioned where the largest.
                      Sure - but let's not forget that Romans also settled army veterans and colonists from different parts of the Roman empire.

                      Just one example -
                      Processes of Cultural Change and Integration in the Roman World is a collection of studies on the interaction between Rome and the peoples that became part of its Empire between c. 300 BC and AD 300. The book focuses on the mechanisms by which interaction between Rome and its subjects occurred, e.g. the settlements of colonies by the Romans, army service, economic and cultural interaction. In many cases Rome exploited the economic resources of the conquered territories without allowing the local inhabitants any legal autonomy. However, they usually maintained a great deal of cultural freedom of expression. Those local inhabitants who chose to engage with Rome, its economy and culture, could rise to great heights in the administration of the Empire.


                      Page 154: This paper presents the results of such context-specific case study. It focuses on the city of Patras, which was colonized by Augustus in 14 B.C. Colonization entailed a massive influx of foreigners into the city, among them a large number of Roman army veterans.

                      Page 156: The colonization of Patras took place in the context of the reorganization of Greece that was started by Caesar and continued by Augustus.

                      Page 158: The settlement of veterans from Antony's legions after the battle of Actium must have posed a serious problem for Augustus, since, according to some estimations, there were about 35,000 veterans who had to be accommodated; Patras was just one destination for the veterans. ...... A third wave of immigration has been suggested by Keppie and Rizakis ........ The process of large-scale immigration entailed major disruptions to local society. In the case of Patras the act of colonization and the immigration of thousands of colonists led to a radical overthrow of the established order of things.



                      One should not pretend these are insignificant changes or numbers.
                      Last edited by Carlin; 06-16-2018, 11:46 AM.

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                      • tchaiku
                        Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 786

                        Corinth was probably the main center of Peloponnese. Sparta fell after the classical age, even in ancient times, Spartans left little behind.

                        I agree, I wanted to mention Roman colonists too, but I think Roman colonists were much less in numbers compared to Illyro-Thracians and Dacians. I always wondered how much did the Roman colonization affect Greece's population?
                        Judging from the population of Patras and Corinth, Roman colonists probably were 10% of Peloponnesian population just from those 2 cities alone, without couting others.
                        Last edited by tchaiku; 07-15-2018, 02:51 PM.

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                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          You may be right.

                          Let's not forget the impact of Arvanite colonizations throughout mainland Greece -- which were truly astonishing (in many areas these Arvanites settled in completely abandoned and depopulated villages & areas).

                          Those Arvanites did not end up going to Mars. What happened to them was quite simply language shift -- nowadays they claim direct descent from Solon, Socrates and Pericles.

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                          • tchaiku
                            Member
                            • Nov 2016
                            • 786

                            Peloponnese was heavily repopulated during the late 17th century under the Venetian control, I am looking forward it. Look at it too, perhaps you may find something.
                            Last edited by tchaiku; 06-16-2018, 01:41 PM.

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                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              Repost: Source is Page 161 of the book ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

                              For the Albanians/Albanian-speakers:

                              "So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19)."

                              Links:




                              The Albanian-speakers were certainly way more numerous than the Slavophones.

                              In the book Les Tzacones, by Stamatis C. Caratzas, I found something that I already shared on this forum previously, but am repeating it here: C. N. Sathas used written testimonies to support that the Slavs never arrived in the Peloponnese and hide under their name Vlachs.

                              As I am already repeating myself, let me demonstrate that an existence of a "Vlachia" / "Volchia" in Peloponnese (namely Arcadia) can be found in primary sources. From Les Tzacones, by Stamatis C. Caratzas - we see Footnote 191, Page 120 --> APUD VOLCHIAM ET ALIAS ARCADIAE ET ROMANIAU PARTES.



                              Page 120 Summary and Translation:

                              - Chalcocondyle said that Vlachs were settled in Laconia, on the Taygetos and peninsula of Tenarion.
                              - In a petition of the inhabitants of Monemvasia, dated 1527, it is said that the Vlachs (Vulachi) have become accustomed to graze their cattle every winter in their territories; which confirms the testimony of Chalcocondyle the site of the settlement.
                              - In the Frankish era, we have the testimony as shown above: "Apud Volchiam et alias Arcadiae et Romaniau partes".
                              - On the page 120, there are numerous toponyms listed which contain the term "Vlach" in it. [Again, this only refers to toponyms with the term "Vlach" in it. In the footnotes of page 121, there are additional such toponyms provided from the following regions and areas of Peloponnese: Olympia, Pylia, Triphylia.]

                              Page 121 Summary - footnote 197:
                              - The probable areas of Vlach settlement must be Gortynia and Laconia in the Peloponnese. Philippson admitted as probable settlement of Vlachs in the Peloponnese, without being able to specify neither date nor place of origin.

                              Page 122 - Top:
                              "Il est maintenant tres probable que les Valaques ont ete installes dans la Peloponnese." --> It is now very likely that the Vlachs settled in the Peloponnese.

                              Furthermore, I haven't provided additional translations from this book, but there is an Athonite legend (legend from Holy Mountain/Mount Athos), as well as medieval Imperial Chrysobulls which indicate that these Peloponnesian Vlachs were originally living in southern Macedonia, very close to Mount Athos -- and were expelled and transferred from these areas to Peloponnese (namely Tzaconia), most likely by Alexios I Komnenos. The interesting thing is that this is a book about Tzaconians, and the author Stamatis C. Caratzas, has demonstrated that "Tzaconians" were also transferred to the Peloponnese (Tzaconia) from Macedonia, around the same time and from the same districts as the Vlachs.

                              On Page 126 we read of "a relationship" between Tzaconians and Vlachs:

                              "Deux indications militent pour l'existence d'un rapport entre les Tzacones et les Valaques dans la poesie populaire." --> "Two indications argue for the existence of a relationship between Tzacones and Vlachs in popular poetry."

                              My ramblings on this can be found here (with screenshots), page 5 of this same thread:
                              - &quot;Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese..&quot; - &quot;Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs..&quot; - &quot;..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians..&quot; - &quot;..the guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek revolution Vlachs

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                              • tchaiku
                                Member
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 786

                                Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                                "So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19)."
                                For Peloponnese it can be true, but it was mathematically impossible for Albanians (in XV century) to cover up 45% of Greece's population, the total Albanian population during those times was 350,000-500,000 (I assume) at most.
                                Last edited by tchaiku; 07-15-2018, 02:49 PM.

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