WTF?: North Macedonia to become bilingual state until 2020

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  • Giorikas
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 316

    #31
    I can't see the video so can't comment on that, and for sure I wouldn't be able to comment on the dialect.
    As general point I would say that I find it strange that you guys label 'by default' every Slavic speaker as 'Macedonian Macedonian', and never as 'Bulgarian Macedonian'. Stating that is not the same as calling you (West)-Bulgarian. I'm saying, it's impossible to ignore the very significant 'Bulgarian Macedonian' populatian that existed in Greek Makedonia (ex big cities more or less, especially Thessaloniki).
    Even if they co-hibited Macedonia with a 'Macedonian Macedonian' population if you want, same as we know that there was a 'Jewish-Macedonian' polulation, not just in Thessaloniki. We Greeks fought them, they fought us, we did some terrible things to them, and they did that to us. The ones we fought identified themselves as Bulgarians and got help from Bulgaria.

    What I am accusing you of (not personally ;-)) is the following: Greeks and Bulgarians are bad guys for not accepting you identity as 'Macedonian-Macedonians', a Slavic speaking, though not Slavic population.
    But I put it to you that most of you do exactly the same and you confirmed that just now. A Slavic speaker you say unless all the way in Trace you consider per definition NOT 'Bulgarian-Macedonian'. That is apparently an impossibility. A Greek you say is not a Greek even if he identifies himself as such, and the same goes now for Bulgarians so it seems. I can understand the numbers that you claim a bit better now. You incorporated the complete Bulgarian-Macedonian population into yours.

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #32
      Wow, it appears that we should accept anyone who wants to be called a Greek. No matter how far hidden away they come from in Russia or Turkey. But the world stops when we make an assumption that people speaking Macedonian dialects in Macedonia are in fact Macedonians.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Giorikas
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 316

        #33
        Originally posted by Thorvald View Post
        You mean ''Aryan''?

        Sorry, I've nothing with Aryan. Iam Germanic, and European and white, not Aryan.
        Yeah, whatever. Ernst Rhm was a gay even if they put them concentration camps and Hitler was for sure not the blond heared blue eyed German as he wanted to breed, he possibly had Jewish blood himself, so Mr. White Germanic European; I'll take all that with a pich of salt if you don't mind. Try to write 10 messages without talking about Germans and I'll reconsider my views.

        Comment

        • Thorvald
          Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 145

          #34
          Originally posted by Giorikas View Post
          Yeah, whatever. Ernst Rhm was a gay even if they put them concentration camps and Hitler was for sure not the blond heared blue eyed German as he wanted to breed, he possibly had Jewish blood himself, so Mr. White Germanic European; I'll take all that with a pich of salt if you don't mind. Try to write 10 messages without talking about Germans and I'll reconsider my views.

          What on earth is your problem?

          There is no need for you to respond so immature

          I give no shit for Hitler.

          Check my posts if you wish, and oh yeah, I answered earlier questions of Users on this board about Germanic tribes, Runes and Odinism. Got a problem with that?

          If someone ask me a question, I simply answer.
          https://germanictribes.proboards.com/
          European preservation

          Comment

          • Giorikas
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 316

            #35
            Use your knowledge then on Odism, Runes, Germanic tribes to validate your remarks about Greek 'imperialism' Herr Thorvald.

            Comment

            • Thorvald
              Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 145

              #36
              Originally posted by Giorikas View Post
              Use your knowledge then on Odism, Runes, Germanic tribes to validate your remarks about Greek 'imperialism' Herr Thorvald.

              Man, someone asked me questions on this subject; you can't read?

              Thank you for showing your true colours
              https://germanictribes.proboards.com/
              European preservation

              Comment

              • Giorikas
                Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 316

                #37
                Originally posted by Thorvald View Post
                Man, someone asked me questions on this subject; you can't read?

                Thank you for showing your true colours
                No, that is not what happened. You opened a topic where you mention Greece 'with their pathetic Hellenic wetdreams of imperialism'.

                Care to enlighten me on that imperialism ?

                Comment

                • Thorvald
                  Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 145

                  #38
                  To start with the Greek hysteric on the name dispute, the flag dispute comes second. Needs to go further?
                  https://germanictribes.proboards.com/
                  European preservation

                  Comment

                  • Giorikas
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 316

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Thorvald View Post
                    To start with the Greek hysteric on the name dispute, the flag dispute comes second. Needs to go further?
                    Bravo. You know what topic I'm talking about. Now, I would appreciate it (possibly even in the appropriate place) if you could enlighten me this Greek imperialism.

                    As for the rest you wrote here, I haven't got a clue what you mean with this. Better stick to the 'imperialism' for now and we'll deal with whatever else you want to throw at Greeks later.

                    Comment

                    • osiris
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1969

                      #40
                      congratulations thorvald may your mariage be a happy and loving on, slavs and germans is a good fit.

                      dont worry about giroakis he is lashing out in rage fueled by guilt, he donest need you or anyone else to point out neo greek wet dreams he along with the rest of his hellenic buddies experience them nightly.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #41
                        Giorikas, what Greece is doing to Macedonia and the Macedonian people is an outright shame and disgrace. No progress will be made until your side recognizes my side by the name we identify with, just like we recognize you.

                        Any Greek who thinks they have the right to dictate terms to the Macedonians where it concerns their state and identity is a piece of shit, and a racist. Do you fall in this catergory mate?
                        Originally posted by Giorikas
                        I'm saying, it's impossible to ignore the very significant 'Bulgarian Macedonian' populatian that existed in Greek Makedonia (ex big cities more or less, especially Thessaloniki).
                        Nobody ignores the 'Bulgarian' Macedonians as they don't ignore the 'Greek' Macedonians - As they don't ignore the fact that both the 'Bulgarian' and 'Greek' labels were not ethnic, not linguistic, but distinctions of religion and/or class. That is the simple fact. A Macedonian in the Exarchate or Patriarchate is still a Macedonian, he/she still speaks the Macedonian language, he/she still has Macedonian origins, he/she still has Macedonian customs and a Macedonian culture. That is the truth. The manipulation of the Macedonian peasantry via political or religious persuasion finished about a 100 years ago. The Macedonian dialects are distinguishable from Bulgarian, 99% of the linguistic experts in the Slavic world will testify to this, therefore, if it is a Slavic dialect in Macedonia then 9/10 it is the Macedonian language.
                        The ones we fought identified themselves as Bulgarians and got help from Bulgaria.
                        You're wrong, and you know it, and we can prove it. You are trying to indicate that the sole identity of the peasantry was 'Bulgarian', which is simply not true. Macedonians fought as Macedonians, against Greeks. Some may have identified as 'Bulgarian' or 'Greek' for the reasons outlined above, but the bulk of the population only had a native Macedonian identity, which was coupled with an imposed identity at various stages. Most often, these 'Greeks' and 'Bulgarians' were simply Macedonians who fought against each other under the persuasion of opposing sides.

                        Have a read of the below link:

                        Here are the thoughts of some more Greeks of the early to mid 20th century, that, along with Melas and Dragoumis, also confirm the existence of a Macedonian identity and language. Salvanos, Greek Military, considered 50-75% of any given village in western (Greek-occupied) Macedonia to be peopled by Macedonians (Makedones),


                        Even Greeks like Delta who try and muddy the waters when speaking of the Macedonians, by claiming that they are a mix of all sorts, cannot help but admit that the native identity and language of the people was Macedonian and called Macedonian by the persons concerned.
                        Greeks and Bulgarians are bad guys for not accepting you identity as 'Macedonian-Macedonians', a Slavic speaking, though not Slavic population.
                        Greeks and Bulgarians who do not recognize the Macedonian identity are racist morons, I hope I make myself clear enough on that point. I would like you to clarify what you mean by "Slavic-speaking, though not Slavic population", is that the same as the Egyptians being "Arab-speaking, though not Arab population", or the Scottish being "English-speaking, though not English population"?? Giorikas, we will not agree on what the ancient Macedonians were and most scholars will agree that the subject is still open for debate, therefore, if you are trying to indicate what I think, then your argument on this particular point is rendered worthless.
                        A Greek you say is not a Greek even if he identifies himself as such, and the same goes now for Bulgarians so it seems.
                        Where it concerns Macedonia, that is for the most part correct. Again, read my above responses pertaining to the 'Greek' and 'Bulgarian' identities in Macedonia. Only decades earlier, there was neither the Greek or Bulgarian identity that you and your Bulgar friends would like to envision, the 19th century saw all the modern Balkan nations come to fruition. You should keep that fact clear from the propagandist lies you may have read on some racist Greek website.
                        I can understand the numbers that you claim a bit better now. You incorporated the complete Bulgarian-Macedonian population into yours.
                        Read above. I hope you had fun swinging around the misguided (and irrelevant) 'Bulgarian-Macedonian' terminology. I trust you have ceased your game now.

                        By the way, you can lay off Thorvald, your spiteful attacks on him are growing tiresome. The old Giorikas indeed mate......
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Giorikas
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 316

                          #42
                          You're saying: Macedonians were often counted as Bulgarians. I can accept that to a certain extent.
                          But same time there were for sure a significant number of Bulgarians. You have no problem to count them as Macedonian. I believe that it's incorrect. We know that there was a Bulgarian movement, because we fought them. Turkish fought them too and refered to them as Bulgarians. They considered themselves to be Bulgarian. We have that on paper. It was a movement that had been cooking for years. The Miladinov Brothers did their part writing 'Bulgarian folk songs' as did others, so do not tell me that there were no Bulgarians there.
                          Now if you're saying that I am racist scum for not not going along with counting all of them in retrospect as Macedonians, then so be it. I can really live with that.
                          You said in so many words that there were no substantial numbers of Bulgarians in Greek Macedonia, apart from the occasional one in Thraki. That is far from the truth as I see it and it doesn't make your claims credible. Again, I respectfully disagree.

                          To be clear I am not saying you are Bulgarians.

                          In fact, you expect me to respect your right of self determination if possibly by conviction rather then just obeying the formum rules, but you do not do the same to Greeks (who seem on this board to be anything but Greeks in the first place) nor do you extend the same courtecy to Bulgarians. They were simply all .... Macedonians you say. Regardless of what they identidied as.

                          Actually, you will this find this really offensive but here we go: Population counts recorded Bulgarians for sure in Macedonia (after the time that Christians were mentioned as group only). Turks counted them, Greeks counted them, French counted them, Bulgarians counted them, Serbs counted them, foreigners spoke of them, travellers recorded them, Greeks fought them, Serbs fought them, Turks fought them. The evidence is overwhelming and not disputed, read any book on the Balkan wars and read who participated.

                          I read for example letters that were found of Greek soldiers writing back home (don't remember the source). They spoke of incredible autrocities from their side. We know that Bulgarians did the same to us. It was dirty business in those days. Whichever village did not belong to your side was burned to the ground and most villagers killed. Now I find it completely understandable and credible that any Bulgarian would not identify as Bulgarian but just simply as Macedonian looking at a gun and sabre when being confronted with fierce Cretans on horses ready to burn, kill, rape and pillage. That would for me be a very logical reaction. We know that many in those places during that time identified with whichever side was in front of them for sure. All sides confirm that. Being Macedonian was more accptable, more safe, more neutral & less dangerous and might give you a chance to get away with being Bulgarian. So I find it very plausable that a Bulgarian would anser 'I am Macedonian' if he was asked what he was. If would have asked for example Kemal Ataturk in his if he were Macedonian he would also answer that with a yes. But Turk too.
                          I am not saying that now each Macedonian is in fact Bulgarian, to be clear. But just consider the possibility that it's completely the other way around then what you say.
                          You see, it depends all on which way you want to see it.

                          BTW, I will leave that Nazi Thorvald alone.

                          Giorikas

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Giorikas
                            But same time there were for sure a significant number of Bulgarians.
                            Ethnic Bulgarians as opposed to ethnic Macedonians from the Exarchate or one's using the generic 'Bulgar' name applied to other Slavic-speakers in the Balkans also? Do tell....
                            We know that there was a Bulgarian movement, because we fought them.
                            It was a Macedonian movement. Unlike the foreigners from Crete and elsewhere that came to Macedonia to fight for the Greek 'cause' of usurping the region and its people, they did not enjoy the support of the Bulgarian state as did the so-called 'Makedonomachos' with Greece. I agree that there was Bulgarian influence due to the Exarchate and some extremely pro-Bulgarian members, but that is irrelevant to the sentiments of most of the members, who were locals from Macedonia and had as their aim the ultimate liberation of Macedonia as an independent state.
                            Turkish fought them too and refered to them as Bulgarians. They considered themselves to be Bulgarian. We have that on paper.
                            We have papers too. These 'Bulgarians' you cite are members of the Exarchate who are ethnic Macedonians, nothing more.
                            The Miladinov Brothers did their part writing 'Bulgarian folk songs' as did others, so do not tell me that there were no Bulgarians there.
                            The Miladinov brothers were only using the generic term used by most Slavic-speakers of the Ottoman Empire at the time, they were from the far west in Macedonia, Struga, the dialects recorded in their texts from Macedonia are clearly identified as Macedonian, there can be no doubt of that. You try and hold on to these 'Bulgarian' references desperately, would you accept that in the territory that came to be the Greek Kingdom there were only Romans and no Hellenes? That is what the locals of that land called themselves, is it not? Ethnic Romans? Do you see how utterly inaccurate your suggestions are?
                            ..........but you do not do the same to Greeks (who seem on this board to be anything but Greeks in the first place).....
                            You keep repeating that, yet I see plenty of people calling you Greeks, in particular the person writing this to you now. This doesn't come close to your continual twisting of the facts about the 'Bulgarian-Macedonians', who were ethnic Macedonians from the Macedonian region and spoke the Macedonian language.
                            .......nor do you extend the same courtecy to Bulgarians. They were simply all .... Macedonians you say. Regardless of what they identidied as.......
                            Such fanatical 'identity' is cheap. In his assessment of some regions in the west of Aegean Macedonia, the Greek chief of staff in the military, Salvanos (1925), calls these Greeks and Bulgarians a group of fanatics, who are in the minority. How can I consider somebody a Greek or Bulgarian when they have the same ancestal origins as me, the same culture and customs as me, the same language as me? That is not an identity, it is the falsification of identity. Now, I know that you will tailor your answer to suit the following question, but try and be honest here, what would you think of a person who identifies as a Turk yet speaks Greek at home and among family, has Greek customs, etc? Respect his identity as an ethnic Turk? The thought wouldn't cross your mind that there is more to this person that just an 'Turk'? In anticipation of a serious response here.

                            We are not asking you to respect our identity just for the sake of putting on a show or to get our own way, we are asking you because that is our only native identity as a people, state and language, and it is as historically valid as any other nation on this earth. We are the Macedonians.
                            Actually, you will this find this really offensive but here we go: Population counts recorded Bulgarians for sure in Macedonia (after the time that Christians were mentioned as group only). Turks counted them, Greeks counted them, French counted them, Bulgarians counted them, Serbs counted them, foreigners spoke of them, travellers recorded them, Greeks fought them, Serbs fought them, Turks fought them. The evidence is overwhelming and not disputed, read any book on the Balkan wars and read who participated.
                            And there are reasons why they were called 'Bulgarian', as already explained. Here is something that you and the type of racist Greeks you are beginning to sound like choose to deny: Populations statistics also record a Macedonian Slavic population distinct from Serbs and Bulgars, Greeks most certainly have considered the people and language as Macedonian or Macedonian Slavic several times which is recorded in Greek records, Bulgarians and Serbs also saw the Macedonians who they tried to assimilate due to linguistic similarities, foreigners also saw them and spoke of them and considered them an independent people. Our evidence is also overwhelming which demonstrates that your evidence is delivered in a propagandist manner and is sourced from misguided information. Why is it OK for you to raise this type of 'evidence' yet the second that somebody highlights the imperialistic and racist policies of Greece and/or the significance of Albanians, Germans, Vlachs, etc in the origins of modern Greek history, you jump up and down in a tantrum and commence with baseless accusations at people? If such people are 'low' for spending some hours researching your state and people, what does that say about you and your efforts here against the Macedonians?
                            Now I find it completely understandable and credible that any Bulgarian would not identify as Bulgarian but just simply as Macedonian looking at a gun and sabre when being confronted with fierce Cretans on horses ready to burn, kill, rape and pillage.
                            Why would Macedonians identify as Macedonians to Bulgarians, Serbs and foreigners? Because they were all fierce? Your argument doesn't hold water, we know why and when we used the 'Bulgarian' name, evidently you don't, as the modern Greek memory seems to erase inconvenient contradictions in your arguments, such as your Roman identity in parallel to that of the Bulgarian one. You have only called yourselves Hellenes since the 19th century and you think you have the right to question the name of my identity?
                            I am not saying that now each Macedonian is in fact Bulgarian, to be clear. But just consider the possibility that it's completely the other way around then what you say.
                            I have considered it, and I rendered it historically incorrect.
                            You see, it depends all on which way you want to see it.
                            I see it from the pragmatic and realistic side, I see the Macedonian Truth, all you seem to see is Greek lies.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Giorikas
                              Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 316

                              #44
                              Going to be a long one again ....

                              Regarding your first remark: A Christian from Macedonia does not equal a Greek, of course. But if you dig further, it makes no sense that the overwhelming majority of Slav-speaking Christians would accept being labelled Bulgarians when they were in fact not. Unless you believe that Ottomans had a good reason to suppress your Macedonian identity at that time, and I can not think of any. The creation of the Exarchate had many reasons, and adding a Macedonian Orthodox Church would not be necessarily against their interests. But that did not happen. It would probably have strengthened the Ottoman position dividing as much as possible (between all troublemakers). We know after all that the Ottomans encouraged the Greek - Bulgarian skirmishes. It was a turbulent time indeed and Ottomans were about to resettle Macedonia with Muslims from Bosnia, just to make sure they had a population they could trust & to consolidate their position in Macedonia.

                              Regarding the Macedonian movement: we are going around circles. We have it on paper that many identified themselves as Bulgarians. That does not mean automatically that there could not be simulaniously a non-Bulgarian but Macedonian struggle, but it seems all evidence is against you. If for crying out loud you take the risk of rebelling & getting killed would you call yourself 'Bulgarian' in stead of Macedonian having a Macedonian identity. And on top you know that the majority around you feels Macedonian, not Bulgarian.... It just doesn't add up for me. Hey Mr. Ottoman, I want to kick you from our soil, but unfortunately the time is not there yet to call myself Macedonian...? How ridiculous is that?

                              You say that the exachate had Bulgarian influences. I say it was Bulgarian to the core. I can't believe you made that comment.

                              The Miladinov brothers; I can't properly judge if this dialect as you describe it, differs from mainstream Bulgarian at that time. I know just 1 thing, if every fibre in my core tells me that I am a Macedonian and nothing else, and if one of the reasons I write what I write (which is to preserve / promote my national Macedonian conciousness) no way would I call it 'Bulgarian folk tales' but 'Macedonian folk songs'. Those were times when revolution was in the air. Why conform, like self sensorship. It's not as if the the exarchate would excommunicate me since this was Macedonian in essence anyway, right, 'though with Bulgarian influence'.

                              Now, Rum: if a Greek in Turkey was (and still is to this day) called Rum, then that did not offend them. It doesn't bother me that I am a Yunan for them, but my brothers in Turkey are 'Rum', while I call myself Ellinas, and in English that would be Greek. But do not try to tell a Thessalonian that he's Bulgarian ;-) If I would meet somebody in Turkey that speaks Greek and I consider to be Greek but he or she identifies himself as Turk (and there are such cases) then it would sadden me. But I'd have to accept his right to choose his identity. I any case there is nothing else one could do. I don't believe in enforcing an identity on someone. He or she is a Turk if he or she made that choice.

                              As far as Greeks not being allowed to be called Greeks here on this forum, I meant it in the context that we are debating here, that you claim Greeks from Macedonia to be Macedonian of origin. I have told you my take on Macedonians in Greece. Anybody living on Greek soil who feels not Greek, but feels Macedonian has my blessing. I believe that they are there and I believe that everyone should be entitled to express their views and they should not be hindered in any way. That I do not believe those to be connected with ancient Macedonia is another matter all the same. They seem to feel connected with ROM. I also believe the numbers to be very small. It's irrelevant for this discussion. You knew my position on that.

                              Evidence: We can do the 'show me yours and I'll show you mine' but I challenge you to show me the overwhelming proof of recorded population census indication an indiginous Macedonian (non-Bulgarian)ethnic identity from a neutral source.

                              On Mr. Thorvald, I called him a Nazi before he referred to Greece as being imperialistic. It was practically the first thing I wrote him.

                              On the topic why Macedonians called themselves what, I disagree. You mentioned Macedonians were by far outnumbering Bulgarians and Bulgarians were in fact non-existant in Macedonia (a few in Thace aside) & Greeks were really Macedonians too. Those are controversial statements. Who did those Macedonians then have to answer to? To non-existing Bulgarians? To non-existing Bulgarian revolutionary movements who were really Macedonian? To Greek revolutionary movements who were also Macedonians? Ottomans maybe? The sick man of Europe, who was weak and wanted their enemies weaker. It would serve Ottomans just fine to add another ingredient, another ethnic group to the salade Macdoine, the more fighting between the Christians the better. What was the masterplan then by your enemies?

                              Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here. I repeat, I am not stating that there were no etnic Macedonians. I am also not saying that Macedonians are Bulgarians. I just want you to consider that is wrong to absorb Greeks & Bulgarians from Macedonia in retrospect as Macedonians. It's merely that point I want to make. Please reconsider.
                              Last edited by Giorikas; 03-18-2009, 12:10 PM.

                              Comment

                              • DrVosi
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2009
                                • 18

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                It also happened with the Prosfiga who came to Aegean Macedonia, where they learned the Macedonian language. Like these people below;
                                YouTube - *ολύπετρο Κιλκίς05

                                They learned it from people like this;
                                YouTube - I am NOT Greek, I AM MACEDONIAN!

                                Macedonian must have been widespread and influental, why wasn't it given the status discussed above?
                                Sorry, but the people in that first video did not learn the language when they arrived. Maybe other refugees did, but not those specific people in the video.


                                ----
                                Dr AV*

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