Philiki Eteria founders most likely Vlachs & Slav

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  • tchaiku
    Member
    • Nov 2016
    • 786

    HOMERIC LANGUAGE:
    Μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
    Mínin áeide theá Piliïádeo Achilíos

    MODERN GREEK:
    Τη μάνητα, θεά, τραγούδα μας του ξακουστού Αχιλλέα,
    Ti mánita, theá, tragoúda mas tou xakoustoú Achilléa,

    I actually see connections.

    Comment

    • tchaiku
      Member
      • Nov 2016
      • 786

      πολλὰς δ᾿ ἰφθίμους ψυχὰς Ἄϊδι προΐαψεν
      ἡρώων, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἑλώρια τεῦχε κύνεσσιν
      pollás d᾿ ifthímous psychás Áïdi proḯapsen
      iróon, aftoús dé elória tefche kýnessin

      και πλήθος αντρειωμένες έστειλε ψυχές στον Άδη κάτω
      παλικαριών, στους σκύλους ρίχνοντας να φάνε τα κορμιά τους
      kai plíthos antreioménes ésteile psychés ston Ádi káto
      palikarión, stous skýlous ríchnontas na fáne ta kormiá tous

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      • Amphipolis
        Banned
        • Aug 2014
        • 1328

        These are poetic, not literal and accurate translations so they don't really help.

        Comment

        • tchaiku
          Member
          • Nov 2016
          • 786

          *×××××××××
          Last edited by tchaiku; 07-10-2017, 07:46 AM.

          Comment

          • tchaiku
            Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 786

            @Amphipolis

            How much are ancient and modern Greek mutually intelligible? By percent?

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            • Amphipolis
              Banned
              • Aug 2014
              • 1328

              Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
              pollás d᾿ ifthímous psychás Áïdi proḯapsen
              iróon, aftoús dé elória tefche kýnessin
              The red words are not used today

              Comment

              • tchaiku
                Member
                • Nov 2016
                • 786

                Winegrower has given a pretty much accurate picture of the use of both forms of the language. I would like to specify, though, that there is no ONE form of Ancient Greek. Ancient Greek varies widely, depending on the age when the different ancient documents were written, or on the dialect that their writers used. In this way, when you read Homer (Odyssey or Iliad) you'll most probably understand nothing but a few words. It's totally incomprehensible. But you will surely track down many words as being the origin of similar words which have developped into Modern Greek. On the other hand, if you read texts of later times, i.e. Aristotle or Thucydides, you realise that the language has evolved a lot since Homer and you understand a lot more. But even though you understand many things, you still face three main difficulties: 1. the syntax is very different and makes it difficult to understand the overall meaning of a phrase, especially if it's a long one, 2. verb/noun types can be so different that you might understand the verb (i.e. the verb "to fight") but not who is fighting or whether they will fight in the future or if they have already fought, etc., and 3. some words are identical to modern Greek words but have a slightly or totally different meaning (i.e. cosmos, which nowadays means "the world", also had the meaning of "decoration", back then. On the other hand, you can still track down the meaning of "decoration" in Modern Greek, since "cosmos" is used in words, like "cosmetic"). All in all, the Attic dialect, which was spoken at the Athens area at around 500 B.C., is the closest to Modern Greek, as far as Ancient Greek is concerned.

                The evangelical language, found in Gospels, is a lot easier to understand, since the Gospels were written hundreds of years after the times when what we call "classical Greek literature" was written.

                I can tell you that I studied Ancient Greek quite a lot at school, I was able to translate an ancient Greek text of average difficulty quite easily and I could conjugate/inflect any verb or noun, or just about; and, still, 15 years later, when I look at trial examination tests for University, I understand so little that it's quite embarassing.

                One last thing, though: since Modern Greek lacks some types of some verbs, we still have to use various forms of archaic language, coming from Ancient Greek, in order to complete the missing types. And, of course, some proverbs or expressions do remain the same.

                Wrote quite a lot, didn't I..

                Hi everyone, this is partially a cultural question as well as a language question, so I hope it's appropriate for these forums. I was wondering about the place of the ancient Greek language in modern Greece. Is it commonly taught in schools? Is it necessary to study it as a separate language...

                Comment

                • Liberator of Makedonija
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 1595

                  Athanasios Tsakalov was one of the founders of Filiki Eteria, he was born in Janina.

                  Who else has noticed that surname?
                  I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3810

                    Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                    It was among the Vlah merchants of Odessa that the Philike Hetairea was founded, and revolutionary literature was produced on the Vlah printing presses of the Pului brothers in Vienna.



                    Link:
                    http://www.academia.edu/302560/_The_..._the_Evidence_
                    Brilliant. There’s enough evidence to certainly reach the conclusion that not only was the Vlach and Albanian element of what would become modern grcija the backbone of that new phenomenon “Hellenism” but the revolutionary ideas came from men foreign to the ideal ‘hellene’.
                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                      Athanasios Tsakalov was one of the founders of Filiki Eteria, he was born in Janina.

                      Who else has noticed that surname?
                      LoM, I actually wrote about him in this very thread.

                      Originally posted by Carlin View Post


                      Greco-Vlachs first in the foundation of the Friendly Society, a founding member of Tirnavos Tsakalov with most members of this organization was preparing the revolution of enslaved nation...

                      Source: Γιωργης Εξαρχος - ''Οι Ελληνοβλαχοι Αρμανοι'' ("The Hellenovlahoi Armanoi")
                      Originally posted by Carlin View Post

                      1) Arthur Evans (in an open letter to The Times on October 1st, 1903.):

                      The truth is that a large number of those described as Greeks are really Roumans. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance speaking race of the Pindus region. Today Janina has quite forgotten its Rouman origin, and has become a center of Hellenism.

                      2) http://www.farsarotul.org/nl11_1.htm

                      Tyrnavos, a town to the north, is perhaps 60 percent Vlach, mainly those from Avdhella and Samarina. [--> 60 percent Vlach-speaking?? And this was towards the end of the 20th century.]
                      Tsakalov's father was originally from Tyrnavos, and as we can see from above this town which was roughly 60 percent Vlach-speaking - at the end of the 20th century! Thessaly became part of the modern Greek state only in 1881, which means that after more than a century Tyrnavos was still largely Vlach-speaking.

                      As I have already argued the other segment of the population of Tyrnavos who were Greek-speaking monolinguals were simply locals or natives who abandoned the use of Vlach and self-Hellenized, since 1881.

                      And here's how I came to that conclusion. http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/History/FilikiEteria.html Philiki Eteria was a "greek" secret society that started before the "greek" war for independence. The founders were 3 "greek" merchants from Odessa. Their names are 42-years old Nikolaos Skoufas


                      And as we can see with my brief discussion with Amphipolis on this and other topics on this forum I hit a raw nerve, and A. was unable or unwilling to acknowledge basic historical facts and testimonies. The reason I always hit a raw nerve was that most of my sources/books I have used are GREEK BOOKS, BLOGS, ARTICLES - written in Greek, and largely untranslated or unknown. These GREEK BOOKS written by modern GREEK AUTHORS can hardly be considered some sort of 'propaganda'.


                      PS:

                      Unrelated to Tsakalov, but let's not forget the following.

                      The Orthodox Eastern Church, Adrian Fortescue [Catholic Truth Society, 1908 - 451 pages]:
                      Last edited by Carlin; 06-24-2018, 08:20 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        My apologies (another repost), as we are mentioning Janina/Ioannina here are my ramblings challenging some preconceived notions (assumptions) and illustrating discrepancies - which can likely be reconciled by demonstrating that (bilingual) Armani/Vlachs = Greeks.

                        I welcome any Responses or Challenges to my observations, and thank you in advance for taking the time to read through the below. This may appear to be unrelated to this thread but Ioannina was one of the CENTERS of Philike Hetairea activity in terms of ideology, gatherings, and dissemination of ideas.



                        I will start with a couple of quotes and then provide a quick overview/analysis. While reading this, please keep in mind the two well-known quotes which we have already seen, that is, how "Janina has quite forgotten its Rouman origin" (by Evans), and the other one "Most of the merchants and leading persons at Janina and Metsovo are Vlachs" (Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons - 1903).

                        Once again, note that I am providing here merely two additional quotes.

                        1) On page 68 of the book "The Life of Ali Pasha, of Tepeleni, Vizier of Epirus, Surnamed Aslan, Or the ..." By Richard Alfred Davenport (year 1837), we read the following about Ioannina:

                        "Estimates of the population vary from thirty-five to fifty thousand persons. Forty thousand is, perhaps, about the real number. It forms a heterogeneous mass of Greeks, Turks, Albanians, Franks, Jews, Arabs, Moors, and Negroes; among whom the Greeks are the most numerous, respectable, and long established, many of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries."

                        2) The following is from A. Koukoudis, "The Vlachs of Aspropotamos: The conditions and the agents of development". It is important to note that he is a researcher (well respected in Greece), who in my opinion, has shown a tendency to minimize the number (and presence) of Vlachs in different regions of Greece. In many cases, I'd say he completely excised the Vlachs from the history of many places. The quote follows:

                        "A typical case is Ioannina, where Vlach traders and craftsmen mainly from Vlahodzoumerko (Kalarites and Syrrako) and Hora Metsovou settled and became very active in economic, corporate, and communal affairs. The same applies to the Lambros, Tourtouris, Sgouros, and Damiris families from Kalarites, who apparently supplanted older Ioanniot craftsmen in the Ioannina market in the time of Ali Pasha. There were a considerable number of Vlachs in the echelons of Ali’s crowded and much talked-about court, from the humble Metsovite porters who bore his litter on their shoulders to secretaries like Hristodoulos Hadzipetros from Neraïdohori in Aspropotamos (later King Otto’s aide-de-camp), the inspector of the Ioannina market Anastassios Samariniotis, privy councellors like the wealthy merchant Yeoryios Tourtouris from Kalarites, and European-trained doctors like Ioannis Kolettis from Syrrako (later Prime Minister of Greece) and Yeoryios Tsapraslis from Kalarites (who wrote one of the first grammars of the Vlach language). Vlachs from Kalarites, Syrrako, and Metsovo settled en masse in Ioannina and played an active part in revitalising that ruined town after the Greek War of Independence."

                        Summary (& discrepancies):

                        - Davenport: Greeks are the most numerous population of Ioannina in the early-mid 19th century; long established, many of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries. No mention of "Vlachs". Well and good.

                        - Koukoudis:
                        --> "Vlach" traders and craftsmen were very active and prominent in economic, corporate, and communal affairs.
                        --> There were a considerable number of Vlachs in the echelons of Ali’s crowded and much talked-about court.
                        --> The inspector of the Ioannina market was Anastassios Samariniotis.
                        --> Vlachs from Kalarites, Syrrako, and Metsovo settled en masse in Ioannina.

                        Analysis:

                        As we can see, Davenport noted a heterogeneous mass of different ethnicities in Ioannina with Greeks being the most numerous - while the "Vlachs" are invisible; no mention at all whatsoever. We have an obvious discrepancy, because from the researcher Koukoudis we see that "Vlachs" were quite numerous in Ioannina, settled en masse there, played an active and prominent role in all sorts of city affairs, and - as an example - A. Samariniotis was the inspector of the Ioannina market. A safe guess and assumption would be that the "Vlachs" were (at least) more numerous than say Franks, Jews, Arabs, Moors, or Negroes (?).

                        Furthermore, these "Vlachs" were not Albanians. It would be quite fair to say and conclude that the "Vlachs" knew Greek (were bilingual), and were "part" of the local Greek community. They considered themselves as Greeks - as we saw from the quote where it is explicitly stated that many distinguished Greeks are of Vlach extraction, how most of the merchants and leading persons at Janina and Metsovo are Vlachs, or that the Vlachs of Epirus would esteem it an offence to be considered of a comrade race with the Roumans.

                        It is very easy to see then that Davenport's Ioannina Greeks were, at the very minimum = Vlachs and Greeks. What we can also conclude is the following: Davenport did not care, bother, or knew to distinguish Vlachs from Greeks. Additionally, he was then unable to say with precision which families were long established, or which of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries. (The important point though is that there is a connection going back centuries.)

                        What completely tipped the scales here so to speak, in allowing us to easily conclude that Greeks are really Vlachophones are testimonies from Sir Arthur J. Evans and Great Britain Parliament House of Commons. In conclusion, Davenport's Ioannina Greeks were then "Vlachs"/bilingual Vlachophones who were the most numerous, respectable, and long established, many of the families having been settled at Ioannina for centuries.


                        Thanks for taking the time to read this.

                        Athens This question has been asked several times, and should be addressed properly once and for all. While I will agree that pockets of Romaic-speakers lived in what were to become the domains of the modern 'Hellenic' state and elsewhere in the Balkans, particularly where it concerns the main trading areas (where as it so
                        Last edited by Carlin; 06-24-2018, 08:42 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          LoM, I actually wrote about him in this very thread.





                          Tsakalov's father was originally from Tyrnavos, and as we can see from above this town which was roughly 60 percent Vlach-speaking - at the end of the 20th century! Thessaly became part of the modern Greek state only in 1881, which means that after more than a century Tyrnavos was still largely Vlach-speaking.

                          As I have already argued the other segment of the population of Tyrnavos who were Greek-speaking monolinguals were simply locals or natives who abandoned the use of Vlach and self-Hellenized, since 1881.

                          And here's how I came to that conclusion. http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/History/FilikiEteria.html Philiki Eteria was a "greek" secret society that started before the "greek" war for independence. The founders were 3 "greek" merchants from Odessa. Their names are 42-years old Nikolaos Skoufas


                          And as we can see with my brief discussion with Amphipolis on this and other topics on this forum I hit a raw nerve, and A. was unable or unwilling to acknowledge basic historical facts and testimonies. The reason I always hit a raw nerve was that most of my sources/books I have used are GREEK BOOKS, BLOGS, ARTICLES - written in Greek, and largely untranslated or unknown. These GREEK BOOKS written by modern GREEK AUTHORS can hardly be considered some sort of 'propaganda'.


                          PS:

                          Unrelated to Tsakalov, but let's not forget the following.

                          The Orthodox Eastern Church, Adrian Fortescue [Catholic Truth Society, 1908 - 451 pages]:

                          Great minds Carlin. His surname sounds Slavic to me, at least the -ov suffix is. Any idea how that came about?
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                            Great minds Carlin. His surname sounds Slavic to me, at least the -ov suffix is. Any idea how that came about?
                            His surname was Russified. At a young age, he left Greece to be with his father in Russia. His 'real' surname seems to have been Tekelis or Tsakalos according to Greek wikipedia (not sure which one of the two though, as Tekeli appears to be totally different from Tsakalos).


                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3810

                              Originally posted by TerraNova View Post
                              Btw Greeks fought in several wars,and won many of them.When did your people fight the last 200 years ...?
                              (and i don't mean fighting in Bulgarian or even Greek and Serbian bands...)
                              Biggest lie ever spread amongst the Ken and Barbies of plastic land called greece.

                              I would like a greek to name me one war they won without any help from the West or from Bulgaria or Serbia or Macedonia. I mean modern and not something from antiquity that doesn’t have a relationship to the modern art masterpiss known as today’s greece.

                              Thanks in advance recyclables.
                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                              Comment

                              • TrueMacedonian
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 3810

                                Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                                Biggest lie ever spread amongst the Ken and Barbies of plastic land called greece.

                                I would like a greek to name me one war they won without any help from the West or from Bulgaria or Serbia or Macedonia. I mean modern and not something from antiquity that doesn’t have a relationship to the modern art masterpiss known as today’s greece.

                                Thanks in advance recyclables.
                                So we understand ourselves better;

                                Who in the world is this General Kallergis??? Here's a slew of info on him - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Kalgeris+greek+revolution#q=Kallergis+greek+revolution&hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&ei=3t2sTe77OMnB0QHNkJG6Cw&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=2487aa4852ea88a1 Who is
                                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                                Comment

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