Australian elections 2019

[Risto the Great]

I think ultimately the result shows that future election platforms will be of a very conservative nature, it looks like Australia has lost passion for change and vision, politics is now a game of self preservation to ensure rule, no party will want to move out of their comfort zone

Guaranteed no party will ever propose anything radical again.

Having said that, Albanese would have won it for them. And he is no mental giant. Shorten was just not a believable guy (for good reason).

[Phoenix]

Guaranteed no party will ever propose anything radical again.

Having said that, Albanese would have won it for them. And he is no mental giant. Shorten was just not a believable guy (for good reason).

Albanese was always the peoples favourite, it was Shortens factional support that got him the job (and probably turned off many voters)...Albanese always comes across as measured and empathetic whenever he is on TV...if he wins the leadership role it will be interesting to see if he can do the dirty work in the trenches until the next election.

[Gocka]

Arguably, a good thing (economically) for Macedonia would be to open the border with Kosovo and encourage fully open borders with Albania to take advantage of these resourceful people. No Macedonian wants this because it is likely to manifest itself in an erosion of Macedonian identity. And if you are seeking to preserve your identity, then that is easily interpreted to be a racist concept not unlike the "white identity politics" we see lately.

Would an elevated level of thinking see modern nations as an antiquated concept? Many would think so.

Maybe Goce Delcev's competing cultures is outdated now and the idea of clinging to what is "yours" is a racist mentality. I'm sure Soros believes this.

Arguably, the Macedonian Cause itself seeks to discriminate Macedonians and, as a consequence, discriminate everyone who isn't Macedonian. Seeking to favour ethnic Macedonians can be viewed definitionally as racism.

If you are a racist, put your hand up.

I don't think the Macedonian cause can be described as a struggle for racial, ethnic, or religious purity. I'm my opinion it is the struggle for an autonomous and free Macedonian state that is home to obviously Macedonians, but all other who wish to live there in peace and harmony.

I think we are talking about two very different things. I understand the need to moderate immigration, to preserve a traditional culture and way of life, to secure a certain standard of living for your citizenry. Those are all valid concerns. The problem that I see is that many of these idea that have now become populist and mainstream, are born out of world views that I think most of us would disagree with. Many of these movements have been tempered because of the populist effect, otherwise go back a few years and what we call "maintaining culture and character" was rooted in Neo Nazism and sounded more like "the Jews will not replace us".

That doesn't mean the populist take on these issues is not valid.But there is an ignorance about how we got to where we are. The anti immigrant populism has given much appreciated cover to some very dark and deep rooted elements. They now have a larger group to hide within and slowly ramp up the rhetoric. I can't speak for Australia but the USA has seen a resurgence of self described Neo Nazis, Neo Fascists, and white nationalists. Mostly because of the the cover that Trumpism has inadvertently provided.

My main point was to say that the left isn't the only group to have fringe ideas and fringe groups that are encroaching towards to middle.

I also find the fervor for anti immigration among Macedonians to be kind hypocritical considering the majority of Macedonians almost everywhere they can be found outside of Macedonia, or not only recent immigrants to their host countries, but a majority even came to those countries illegally at some point in time.

The majority of Macedonians in NJ were illegal until the amnesty in 1986. To this day the majority who come here do so by over staying tourist and student visas, and pay people to enter into fake marriages in order to get legal status.

I am an immigrant where I live. At best most of you are the first generation born in Australia. It doesn't feel a little weird saying you hate immigrants? Didn't all of you change the character of Australia to some degree? Or are we talking purely about changing character in terms of skin color? If we are then I don't see how that isn't racist in some way. Macedonians are typically a different religion, and speak a different language to their host nations. Now I agree that we are certainly more similar to our host nations than African Muslims, but if we are talking about preserving an original identity and culture then I don't see how we as Macedonians fit into that equation. Again, unless we are only talking about skin color.

[Risto the Great]

I don't think the Macedonian cause can be described as a struggle for racial, ethnic, or religious purity. I'm my opinion it is the struggle for an autonomous and free Macedonian state that is home to obviously Macedonians, but all other who wish to live there in peace and harmony.

I think the minute you seek to distinguish a race of people, you are being racist under some definitions. Further, the Macedonian Cause seeks to empower these identified Macedonians. If you seek to empower one race, it cannot be of the same benefit for the minorities. Just being the devil's advocate and (referring to my previous text) it is interesting to see that Europeans see certain actions as being less likely to be defined as racist as compared to the USA.

I think we are talking about two very different things. I understand the need to moderate immigration, to preserve a traditional culture and way of life, to secure a certain standard of living for your citizenry. Those are all valid concerns. The problem that I see is that many of these idea that have now become populist and mainstream, are born out of world views that I think most of us would disagree with. Many of these movements have been tempered because of the populist effect, otherwise go back a few years and what we call "maintaining culture and character" was rooted in Neo Nazism and sounded more like "the Jews will not replace us".

I think you're reaching here. Some of the "needs" you mention above are reasonable and have nothing to do with Neo Nazism. Further, the reason Hitler gained so much support was because he completely captured the imagination of the disenfranchised Germans. Going on and killing everyone they didn't like wasn't necessarily what everyone was inspired by in the first instance.

This speech was a pearler:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1203

The reality was quite different but he still managed to sound less nasty than Trump. Go figure.

I also find the fervor for anti immigration among Macedonians to be kind hypocritical considering the majority of Macedonians almost everywhere they can be found outside of Macedonia, or not only recent immigrants to their host countries, but a majority even came to those countries illegally at some point in time.

The majority of Macedonians in NJ were illegal until the amnesty in 1986. To this day the majority who come here do so by over staying tourist and student visas, and pay people to enter into fake marriages in order to get legal status.

I am an immigrant where I live. At best most of you are the first generation born in Australia. It doesn't feel a little weird saying you hate immigrants? Didn't all of you change the character of Australia to some degree? Or are we talking purely about changing character in terms of skin color? If we are then I don't see how that isn't racist in some way. Macedonians are typically a different religion, and speak a different language to their host nations. Now I agree that we are certainly more similar to our host nations than African Muslims, but if we are talking about preserving an original identity and culture then I don't see how we as Macedonians fit into that equation. Again, unless we are only talking about skin color.

I would say almost all Macedonians in Australia arrived legally. They appreciate it and are typically far from prejudiced towards other (more recent) immigrants.

I still think any form of extremism is simplistic and rather pathetic. Left or right .... whatever.

[Gocka]

it is interesting to see that Europeans see certain actions as being less likely to be defined as racist as compared to the USA.

It is interesting. I assume it has to do with a subconscious shame Americans bear for taking so long to outlaw slavery, even needing to go through a civil war. Segregationism, and hate crime went on well into the 70's.

I think you're reaching here. Some of the "needs" you mention above are reasonable and have nothing to do with Neo Nazism. Further, the reason Hitler gained so much support was because he completely captured the imagination of the disenfranchised Germans. Going on and killing everyone they didn't like wasn't necessarily what everyone was inspired by in the first instance.

This speech was a pearler:

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1203

The reality was quite different but he still managed to sound less nasty than Trump. Go figure.

That is exactly the part that worries me about certain rhetoric. That things start out as x and end up as y. There are so many disenfranchised people in the world. They are ripe for manipulation. A lot of the loonies have become emboldened because they feel like their views are finally being embraced by the masses. We just have to be mindful is all I'm saying. When you start talking about preserving the character of a nation, there is a fine line there.

Maybe the view is another product of my surroundings. The USA has a long history of neo Nazi groups that are pretty active and have become more active in recent years. We have loonies setting up their own AL Qaeda still military training camps. There are significant elements of the population who only need a little encouragement. Again maybe this is more of a problem in the USA (like a lot of things seem to be) so Americans are more worried about radical elements vs Europeans.

I would say almost all Macedonians in Australia arrived legally. They appreciate it and are typically far from prejudiced towards other (more recent) immigrants.

I know nothing about how Macedonians migrated to Australia or what laws govern your immigration. All I know is that if I was a dick I could probably have half of the Macedonian population in NJ deported.

I still think any form of extremism is simplistic and rather pathetic. Left or right .... whatever.

I never doubted you did. I was originally resounding to SOM who seemed to hint that he disagreed that elements of the right verge on hate. Maybe Australian politics are more civil than ours, I don't know.... Whatever

[Vangelovski]

I don't think thinking about political ideologies on a linear left/right spectrum is very helpful to be honest. Nor are those grid matrixes or any other shapes they come up with. Ideologies tend to intersect with each other at various points and pull apart at others. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single ideology that does not intersect with another is some way.

Communism and Fascism, which are supposedly the polar opposites of each other (Left vs Right) are virtually the same thing. Its the lay perception of them that puts them at the opposite end and I suspect that its a false dichotomy left over from the second world war where Hitler and Stalin shaped up each other as ideological enemies.

[Risto the Great]

It is interesting. I assume it has to do with a subconscious shame Americans bear for taking so long to outlaw slavery, even needing to go through a civil war. Segregationism, and hate crime went on well into the 70's.

That sounds reasonable. Mind you, they were still hunting Aborigines in Tasmania (AU) back in the 1950's. So maybe that same kind of guilt exists here as well.

When you start talking about preserving the character of a nation, there is a fine line there.

If we think about it, I doubt any nation's character has ever been truly preserved.

Maybe the view is another product of my surroundings. The USA has a long history of neo Nazi groups that are pretty active and have become more active in recent years. We have loonies setting up their own AL Qaeda still military training camps. There are significant elements of the population who only need a little encouragement. Again maybe this is more of a problem in the USA (like a lot of things seem to be) so Americans are more worried about radical elements vs Europeans.

Seems like this is something us hillbillies in Australia have no idea about. I will defer to your local knowledge.

I was originally resounding to SOM who seemed to hint that he disagreed that elements of the right verge on hate. Maybe Australian politics are more civil than ours, I don't know.... Whatever

SoM is more moderate than me. And I am the Macedonian Gandhi! But I would say the left here are the more hateful. If there is a hateful right, they have zero influence. The extreme "left" ties itself in with issues that sound like they are good and just, instead they are toxic groups trying to engineer social change that will destroy the future for our children.

[Risto the Great]

I don't think thinking about political ideologies on a linear left/right spectrum is very helpful to be honest. Nor are those grid matrixes or any other shapes they come up with. Ideologies tend to intersect with each other at various points and pull apart at others. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single ideology that does not intersect with another is some way.

Communism and Fascism, which are supposedly the polar opposites of each other (Left vs Right) are virtually the same thing. Its the lay perception of them that puts them at the opposite end and I suspect that its a false dichotomy left over from the second world war where Hitler and Stalin shaped up each other as ideological enemies.

I think broadly you can think about left/right. But the devil is in the detail and just like perfect Yugoslavs became active Macedonians (after 1991) it becomes more difficult to think of anyone or anything as singularly representative of anything.

[Risto the Great]

He was disliked by many because of his strong trade union background, others were uneasy about his powerbroker role during the disruptive Rudd/Gillard leadership years...he is also a poor public speaker, delivers monotone speeches and comes across as insincere or lacking real empathy...he also has a problem in articulating policy.

This poor policy articulation also fell into the hands of the Coalition with their successful exploitation of the stereotypical framing of ALP policies as attacking "hard working" Australians by over taxing their hard earned wealth and that the Coalition are traditionally 'better' managers of the economy.

One thing keeps coming up that sits well with my anecdotal evidence is that traditional Labor supporters are more than often share and property investors and they would have been adversely impacted with the proposed Labor tax changes.

The "Blue collar" workers coming into my office with 6 figure wages (including overtime) are not rare and are often paid more than degree qualified professionals. Perhaps Labor should look more closely at its voting base next time.

[Vangelovski]

I think broadly you can think about left/right.

Of course you can, but I'm not sure that its useful. It perpetrates a false perception that they are completely different and opposite when in fact they are almost the same. Hitler's Nazism (a racial theory) is separate to Fascism, but I think that's what people think of (Nazism) when they think of fascism.

Nazism doesn't fit neatly with either communism or fascism and both are largely racially blind. Mussolini eventually developed some racial theories putting Italians at the centre of the universe, but this was a late comer in fascist thinking and really out of necessity to appease Hitler. In fact, Nazism is just the logical extension (and an inescapable one in my view) of Darwinism. A politicised theory of evolution.

If we're talking about politics in the West today, I'd say the dominant ideologies are communism and a convergence of conservatism and classical liberalism. But there are other undercurrents such as libertarianism and what I call the 'gut feel' movements.

I see One Nation as a 'gut feel' party. Its a complete schmozzle of ideas that have no rhyme or reason. There's no unifying logic or philosophical underpinning to them and they're mostly a grab bag bunch of policies that seem to come from Pauline Hanson's 'gut feelings'. Its probably why she can't keep any of her elected representatives. They seem to be like a collection of Macedonians who 'unite' so they can 'do something'. As soon as a policy issues comes up, they fall apart because they're all over the shop.

I'd say most people fall into the category of a primary ideological leaning with tendencies in a few others. But there's also a lot of 'gut feelers' out there that seem to be all over the shop. Kind of like the "I want lower taxes but why isn't the government doing something about [insert random issue here]".

[Vangelovski]

Perhaps Labor should look more closely at its voting base next time.

I think they got their voting base spot on - they were targeting the mythical proletariat that is been exploited through wage labour and has no vested (financial) interest in the means of production. They are a communist party after all. Sure, they like to call themselves progressives, socialists, democratic socialists etc, but its all degrees of the same shit. Ultimately, their problem is that the proletariat remains mythical. And a bad solution to a mythical problem always ends badly.

[Risto the Great]

I think they got their voting base spot on - they were targeting the mythical proletariat that is been exploited through wage labour and has no vested (financial) interest in the means of production.

Yeah, I know him. He drives a Lamborghini nowadays.

[Vangelovski]

Yeah, I know him. He drives a Lamborghini nowadays.

Jokes aside, they should have targeted the oppressed unskilled homeowners who are been exploited by tradies through exorbitant prices. Something like fixed prices on tiling and kitchen cabinet installation.

[Risto the Great]

Jokes aside, they should have targeted the oppressed unskilled homeowners who are been exploited by tradies through exorbitant prices. Something like fixed prices on tiling and kitchen cabinet installation.

Seriously, there aren't enough of those people left. They are either renting and will never be exposed to that or else they have moved up the social ladder.

Or they go to IKEA and/or Bunnings for their kitchens.

[Vangelovski]

Seriously, there aren't enough of those people left. They are either renting and will never be exposed to that or else they have moved up the social ladder.

Or they go to IKEA and/or Bunnings for their kitchens.

I was joking