The Ancient Macedonian Language

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  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    #16
    Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
    This is an very important notation! Note also that what is today the Republic of Macedonia is referred to as FREE MACEDONIA.
    Isn't that interesting.

    The other point we can get out of this passage is that the present Macedonian Republic, is to be found in an area Strabo considers to be a part of ancient Macedonia.

    Comment

    • Borislav
      Banned
      • Oct 2008
      • 9

      #17
      Here is some good information and sources on the ancient Macedonian language

      A very good read and I highly recommend people read it

      Otto Hoffmann
      And now after supervising the ancient Macedonian linguistic thesaurus we are posting the decisive question, if what is adding to the Macedonian language its character, are the hellenic or the barbarian elements of it, the response can not be of any doubts. From the 39 "languages" that according to Gustav Mayer their form was "completely alien" has been proven after this research of mine, that 10 of them are clearly Hellenic, with 4 more possibly dialectical forms of common hellenic words, so from the entire collection are remaining only 15 words appearing to be justifiable or at least suspected of anti-hellenic origins. Adding to those 15, few others which with regards their vocals could be hellenic, without till now being confirmed as such, then their number, in comparison to the number of pure hellenic ones in the Macedonian language, is so small that the general hellenic character of the Macedonian linguistic treasure can not be doubted.
      Otto Hoffmann, German linguist, "Die Makedonen, Ihre Sprache und Ihr Volkstum", Göttingen, 1906

      In final analysis it is possible that the name VYRGINON KRASTWNOS is of Thracian origins, while independent remains the name DIRVE[...] All the other names are beautiful, clear Greek constructions and only two of them NEOPTOLEMOS and MELEAGROS could have been loans from the Greek Mythology.
      Otto Hoffmann, German linguist, "Die Makedonen, Ihre Sprache und Ihr Volkstum", Göttingen, 1906

      The names of the genuine Macedonians and those born of Macedonian parents, especially the names of the elit class and nobles, in their formation and phonology are purely Greek.
      Otto Hoffmann, German linguist, "Die Makedonen, Ihre Sprache und Ihr Volkstum", Göttingen, 1906

      N.G.L. Hammond
      "Macedonian" was a strong dialect of very early Greek which was not intelligible to contemporary Greeks.
      Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, "A History of Greece to 323 BC", Cambridge University, 1986 (p 516)

      Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the Macedones were a Greek-speaking people. The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the sixth century the Persians described the tribute- paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the ‘yauna takabara’, which meant “Greeks wearing the hat”. There were Greeks in Greek city-states here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the kausia. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modified Hesiodus genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people. Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive.”
      N.G.L.Hammond,“The Macedonian State”, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1989, pp. 12-15

      What language did these Macedones speak? The name itself is Greek in root and in ethnic termination. It probably means highlanders, and it is comparable to Greek tribal names such as `Orestai' and `Oreitai', meaning 'mountain-men'. A reputedly earlier variant,`Maketai', has the same root, which means `high', as in the Greek adjective makednos or the noun mekos. The genealogy of eponymous ancestors which Hesiod recorded […] has a bearing on the question of Greek speech. First, Hesiod made Macedon a brother of Magnes; as we know from inscriptions that the Magnetes spoke the Aeolic dialect of the Greek language, we have a predisposition to suppose that the Macedones spoke the Aeolic dialect. Secondly, Hesiod made Macedon and Magnes first cousins of Hellen's three sons - Dorus, Xouthus, and Aeolus-who were the founders of three dialects of Greek speech, namely Doric, Ionic, and Aeolic. Hesiod would not have recorded this relationship, unless he had believed, probably in the seventh century, that the Macedones were a Greek speaking people. The next evidence comes from Persia. At the turn of the sixth century the Persians described the tribute-paying peoples of their province in Europe, and one of them was the `yauna takabara', which meant `Greeks wearing the hat'. There were Greeks in Greek city-states here and there in the province, but they were of various origins and not distinguished by a common hat. However, the Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the kausia. We conclude that the Persians believed the Macedonians to be speakers of Greek. Finally, in the latter part of the fifth century a Greek historian, Hellanicus, visited Macedonia and modified Hesiod's genealogy by making Macedon not a cousin, but a son of Aeolus, thus bringing Macedon and his descendants firmly into the Aeolic branch of the Greek-speaking family. Hesiod, Persia, and Hellanicus had no motive for making a false statement about the language of the Macedonians, who were then an obscure and not a powerful people. Their independent testimonies should be accepted as conclusive.
      *Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, "The Macedonian State" p.12-13

      Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine, descent… Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian…The Macedonians over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member of the Greek-speaking peoples.
      Nicholas G. L. Hammond,‘Philip of Macedon’ Duckworth Publishing

      The toponyms of the Macedonian homeland are the most significant. Nearly all of them are Greek.
      *Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, "The Macedonian State" (1989)

      Hesiod first mentioned 'Makedon', the eponym of the people and the country, as a son of Zeus, a grandson of Deukalion, and so a first cousin of Aeolus, Dorus, and Xuthus; in other words he considered the 'Makedones' to be an outlying branch of the Greek-speaking tribes, with a distinctive dialect of their own, "Macedonian".
      *Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary", 3rd ed.(1996), pp.904,905

      Robin Lane Fox
      He was still in a world of Greek gods and sacrifices, of Greek plays and Greek language, though the natives might speak Greek with a northern accent which hardened 'ch' into 'g','th' into 'd' and pronounced King Philip as Bilip.
      Robin Lane Fox, "Alexander the Great", p.30

      Eugene N. Borza
      Our understanding of the Macedonians' [...] That is, we may suggest that northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of Proto-Greek from which were drawn the tribes who later were known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country... First, the matter of the Hellenic origins of the Macedonians: Nicholas Hammond's general conclusion (though not the details of his arguments) that the origin of the Macedonians lies in the pool of proto-Greek speakers who migrated out of the Pindus mountains during the Iron Age, is acceptable.
      Eugene N. Borza, "Makedonika", Regina Books, Claremont CA

      Malcolm Errington
      That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain.
      Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, February 1993

      The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epirote tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots.
      Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, February 1993

      John V.A. Fine
      The Macedonian language has not survived in any written text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months, and the like suggest strongly that the language was a Greek dialect. Macedonian institutions, both secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics and legends identify or link the people with the Dorians. During their sojourn in the Pindus complex and the long struggle to found a kingdom, however, the Macedonians fought and mingled constantly with Illyrians, Thracians, Paeonians, and probably various Greek tribes. Their language naturally acquired many Illyrian and Thracian loanwords, and some of their customs were surely influenced by their neighbours.
      John V.A. Fine, American historian, "The Ancient Greeks: A Critical History", Harvard University Press, 1983, pgs 605-608

      Michael Grant
      Cleopatra VII would have described herself as a Greek. Whatever the racial ingredients of her Macedonian ancestors, her language, like theirs (though they had spoken a dialect), was Greek and so was her whole education and culture.
      "From Alexander to Cleopatra: The Hellenistic World", Scribner Paper Fiction

      George Cawkwell
      The Macedonians were Greeks. Their language was Greek, to judge by their personal names and by the names of the months of the calendar; Macedonian ambassadors could appear before the Athenian assembly without needing interpreters; in all Demosthenes' sneers about their civilization there is no hint that Macedonians spoke other than Greek. But it was a distinct dialect not readily intelligible to other Greeks; linguistically as geographically, Macedonia was remote from the main stream of Greek life.
      Emeritus Fellow, University College, Oxford, "Philip of Macedon", Faber & Faber, London, 1978, p. 22

      J.R. Hamilton
      The language spoken by the Macedonians, which Greeks of the classical period found unintelligible, appears to have been a primitive northwest Greek dialect, much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians.
      Australian historian, "Alexander the Great", Hutchinson, London, 1973

      The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy, but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There is no evidence for a different "Macedonian" language that cannot be as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.
      "Cambridge Ancient Histories", Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998

      Thomas R. Martin
      Macedonians had their own language related to Greek, but the members that dominated Macedonian society routinely learned to speak Greek because they thought of themselves and indeed all Macedonians as Greek by blood.
      "Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times", Yale University Press, p. 188

      Graham Shipley
      ...despite ancient and modern controversies it seems clear that the Macedonians as a whole were Greek-speakers. While the elite naturally communicated with other elites in standard, probably Attic, the ordinary Macedonians appear to have spoken a dialect of Greek, albeit with load-words from Illyrian and thracian which gave ammunition to their denigrators[...] if proof needed of the sophistication of Macedonia at this time, one may bring forward the fragments of the earliest surviving Greek literary papyrus, a carbonized book-roll found in a tomb-group of c. 340-320 at Derveni near Thessaloniki. It preserves parts of a philosophical text on Presocratic and Orphic cosmology composed around 400, and surely had a religious significance for the man in whose funeral pyre it was placed. The Derveni roll provides evidence for a high level of culture among the aristocracy.
      English historian, " The Greek World After Alexander", Routledge, p.111

      Thomas Kelly Cheyne
      The Macedonians were of Greek stock, as their traditions and remains of their language prove.
      "Encyclopaedia biblica;: A critical dictionary of the literary; political and religious history, the archaeology, geography, and natural history of the Bible"

      Ian Worthington
      To Greek literary writers before the Hellenistic period the Macedonians were "barbarians". The term referred to their way of life and their institutions, which were those of the ethne and not of the city-state and it did not refer to their speech. We can see this in the case of Epirus. There Thucydides called the tribes barbarians but inscriptions found in Epirus have shown conclusively that the Epirotic tribes in Thucydides' lifetime were speaking Greek and used names which were Greek. In the following century "barbarian" was only one of the abusive terms applied by Demosthenes to Philip of Macedon and his people.In passages which refer to the Macedonian soldiers of Alexander the Great and the early successors there are mentions of a Macedonian dialect, such as was likely to have been spoken in the original Macedonian homeland. On one occasion Alexander called out to his guardsmen in Macedonian (Makedonisti) as this (viz. the use of Macedonian) was a signal (symbolon) that there was a serious riot. Normally Alexander and his soldiers spoke the standard Greek, the koine and that was what the Persians who were to fight alongside the Macedonians were taught. So the order in Macedonian was unique, in that all other orders were in the koine it is satisfactorily explained as an order in broad dialect, just as in a Highland Regiment a special order for a particular purpose could be given in broad Scots by a Scottish officer who usually spoke the Kings English.The use of this dialect among themselves was a characteristic of the Macedonian soldiers (rather than the officers) of the King's Army. This point was made clear in the report — nor in itself dependable — of the trial of a Macedonian officer before an Assembly of Macedonians, in which the officer (Philotas) was mocked for not speaking in dialect. In 521 when a non-Macedonian general, Eumenes, wanted to make contact with a hostile group of Macedonian infantrymen, he sent a Macedonian to speak to them in the Macedonian dialect, in order to win their confidence. Subsequently, when they and other Macedonian soldiers were serving with Eumenes, they expressed their affection for him by hailing him in the Macedonian dialect (Macedonisti). He was to them one of themselves. As Curtius observed "not a man among the Macedonians could bear to part with a jot of his ancestral customs". The use of this dialect was one way in which the Macedonians expressed their apartness from the world of Greek city-states.
      Professor of Greek History at the University of Missouri-Columbia, "Alexander the Great", p.21, Routledge, 2002

      Manfred F.R. Kets de Vries
      Although the Macedonians, whose territory occupied the area around present-day Thessaloniki in northern Greece, considered themselves part of the Greek cultural sphere, many Greeks regarded them with contempt. In the eyes of the Greeks, the Macedonians were a mere offshoot of the original stock. They spoke a Greek dialect, to be sure, but they were led by a backward monarchy and their nobles.
      Dutch author, researcher and clinical professor of leadership development, "Are Leaders born or Are they made?: The case of Alexander the Great", Karnac Books (June 2004)

      Titus Livius
      The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day...
      "History of Rome", Book XXXI, 29.15

      Curtius Rufus
      Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions.
      *Alexander the Great addressing the dead Greeks of the battle of Chaeronia. Curtius Rufus, "Historia"

      Ulrich Wilken
      The character of the Macedonian nationality is Greek; for example, the names of the true full-blooded Macedonians, especially of the princes and nobles, are purely Greek in their formation and sounds. Above all, the fundamental features of Macedonian political institutions are ‘'’not only Greek but primitive Greek‘’.
      *Ptolemy, Penned in the margins.

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        #18
        Borislav, I see that you have read the Greek Quote-Bible over at maggotsonline. Are you from Russia?
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • Borislav
          Banned
          • Oct 2008
          • 9

          #19
          Daskalot I'm not Greek and I'm not from Russia, I'm American

          I've taken an interest in this subject and thought I would post some information on here. I searched the forum but I couldn't find much on any of those quotes so I thought I'd post some. It's pretty good information.

          Comment

          • Daskalot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 4345

            #20
            Originally posted by Borislav View Post
            Daskalot I'm not Greek and I'm not from Russia, I'm American

            I've taken an interest in this subject and thought I would post some information on here. I searched the forum but I couldn't find much on any of those quotes so I thought I'd post some. It's pretty good information.
            Sure is Yankee-boy, sure is...... why the Slavic sounding name, been to the dark side?
            Macedonian Truth Organisation

            Comment

            • makedonin
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1668

              #21
              I would not rely on Otto Hofmann and his assertion.

              His tendencies are Pro-Hellenic and this can be seen through his book.

              He reminds me of some Macedonian Digest linguists.

              Example:



              γοταν 'υν Μακεδονες where 'υν or συν as Otto states means Pig



              Quick Google Translation:

              The only tame quadruped, whose Macedonian names we know, is the pig. The Hesych traditional Akkusativform γοταν > 'υν. Μακεδονες seems at first glance by the 'υν or συν to be so completely different that we understand it, if FICK try to explain by a bold etymological move. But appearances are deceiving: γοταν is nothing but the Macedonian Form of the word of the Greek 'υν and therefore linguistically special relationship valuable and interesting.

              Look who is talking about bold etymological boldness



              The initial G in Hesych not only from F, but from H, the symbol of Piritus asper, SOLMSEN in his "Untersuchung zur Grieschischen Laute and Verslehre 215" succeeded to secure evidence of tree Greek Glosses that follow this rule: ..... .........

              it corresponds to the specially for the Macedonian glosses "testified orthography" GOT-spoken HUU Sound for Sound to the Greek Sounds in the word for pork HU-OOS, HU-OON
              He concludes that the Ancient Macedonian Word ΓΟΤΑΝ>GOTAN and the Greek word ΎΝ > HUN come from Pro-Greek HOFAN


              Just to mention it that in all so called South Slavic languages, there is the word:

              Serbo-Coratik: GUDA
              Macedonian: GUDE
              Bulgarian: G'DE,GODA


              All mean PIG and it is more likely that the characters "T" and "D" change than "T" and "F".
              This same rule Hoffman have used to prove that the Ancient Macedonian word ABRUTES> Macedonian OBRVI > Eybrows is of Greek Origin and has something to do with OFRUS.

              He has to make up his mind, is it F for T or F for G sound



              It should be Mentioned that "T" and "F" changings are found between Latin and Greek languages, but in rare occations.

              But is Latin Greek because of that?

              And in every South Slavic languages:
              GOveDO, GOveDA > COWS, BULLS.

              Sanskrit: GO > Cow


              Modern Greek word for Pig: Γουρούνι > Guruni


              In this way, I can prove that Chinese is Macedonian
              Last edited by makedonin; 10-17-2008, 07:31 AM.
              To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

              Comment

              • Borislav
                Banned
                • Oct 2008
                • 9

                #22
                makedonin

                Hofmann isn't the only person who has been quoted so yea.....

                And you should also read this topic http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=290

                @Daskalot

                I picked this name because I like the sound of it I guess

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Borislav View Post
                  makedonin

                  Hofmann isn't the only person who has been quoted so yea.....
                  what yea???

                  You sound like some kid who just discovered his Lollipops

                  I just showed you how stupid the "Wonna Be Hellene" Hoffman linguistics are.

                  If I didn't know it better, I would start debating with you and lose my prescious time

                  BoringStuff
                  Last edited by makedonin; 10-17-2008, 08:14 AM.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • Philosopher
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1003

                    #24
                    Borislav,

                    Are we to believe that you are some American, completely unrelated to the history of Greece and Macedonia, and that you just happend to come on this forum with the applleation "Borislav," and then repeat the Greek version of history line for line?

                    I smell a rat...

                    But what about Borza and Baidan when they argue that:

                    "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from Greek dialect."

                    Meaning, non Greek.

                    And what about Hesiod's myth that clearly establishes that Macedonians were a separate nation with a separate tongue from Greece?

                    Comment

                    • makedonin
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1668

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                      Borislav,

                      Are we to believe that you are some American, completely unrelated to the history of Greece and Macedonia, and that you just happend to come on this forum with the applleation "Borislav," and then repeat the Greek version of history line for line?

                      who believes it, is blessed one
                      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                      Comment

                      • Daskalot
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 4345

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Borislav View Post

                        @Daskalot

                        I picked this name because I like the sound of it I guess
                        No you picked it because you thought it would most likely get you posting on this forum, isnt it so, you have signed up with multiple aliases....... by the way you are not from America but rather from Kangaroo-land.......
                        Macedonian Truth Organisation

                        Comment

                        • Borislav
                          Banned
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 9

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                          Borislav,

                          Are we to believe that you are some American, completely unrelated to the history of Greece and Macedonia, and that you just happend to come on this forum with the applleation "Borislav," and then repeat the Greek version of history line for line?

                          I smell a rat...

                          But what about Borza and Baidan when they argue that:

                          "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from Greek dialect."

                          Meaning, non Greek.

                          And what about Hesiod's myth that clearly establishes that Macedonians were a separate nation with a separate tongue from Greece?
                          Who I am is not really imortant, we are straying of topic

                          Could you provide me sources to those quotes?

                          Comment

                          • Borislav
                            Banned
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 9

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                            No you picked it because you thought it would most likely get you posting on this forum, isnt it so, you have signed up with multiple aliases....... by the way you are not from America but rather from Kangaroo-land.......
                            I'm an Amercian living between Australia and the US

                            Comment

                            • makedonin
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1668

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Borislav View Post
                              Could you provide me sources to those quotes?
                              Reading the earlier posts before posting Modern Hellenophiles won't kill you:

                              Arian wrote: μακεδονιζων τη φωνη
                              Plutarch wrote in the Biography of Mark Antony as following: μακεδονιζειν(obvious Gramatical change form from μακεδονιζω) as well in the Bibliography of Eumenes he wrote:μακεδονιστι τη φωνη.

                              The word φονη actually meant language, as can be seen in the example in the Drama Agamemnon written by Aeschylus where written:
                              αγνωτα φονην βαρβαρον -> the unknown barbarian language.
                              The same word for language is written by Xenophon in his Kunegetikos 2.3 where he says: φονην Ηελληνα -> the Hellenic language.
                              do your home work before believing some Modern Hellenophiles!
                              To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                              Comment

                              • makedonin
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1668

                                #30
                                And some more:

                                " . . . Macedonatus, homines linguae suae per interpretem audire,"
                                ". . . born a Macedonian, to hear the men of his language through an interpreter,"

                                Curtius(2) Hist. Alex. Magni Maced., IV, I11.4.
                                After your Authors, some Interpreter had to translate to him from "Macedonian Greek" in to "Koine Greek", right?
                                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                                Comment

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