Palaeolithic Continuity Theory - European origins

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    #31
    thanks toska my sentiments exactly.There is the known & unknown about the lavs,WE wouldldn't be throwing the baby with the bathwater if we agreed with the propaganda that either comes from greeece and Bulgaria.Example the greeks use the slav identity to say there are no Macedonians in Greece but just slavs,The slavs according to their brand of propaganda have no connect with the ancient Macedonians.But hold everything according to current theory there was pre slav 6,7 century slav influence.I would love to know how that happened.??
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      #32
      Originally posted by Toska View Post
      i see nothing wrong with what is posted, its clearly saying that slavic migration is made up, that all the people of the balkans are indigenous to the area,that todays slavic languages stemmed from Macedonia, so realistically its a Macedonian dialect half of europe is speaking, if you disagree with this your agreeing with greeks, that we are newcomers the area.
      He isn't saying that exactly. He's still basically proposing the idea that there is one slavic group and that is the predecessor to current "slavic" ethnic groups.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Constellation
        Member
        • Jul 2014
        • 217

        #33
        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
        He isn't saying that exactly. He's still basically proposing the idea that there is one slavic group and that is the predecessor to current "slavic" ethnic groups.
        It is not easy to understand Alinei's works based on a few sentences. His usage of the word "Slavs" to describe the native Balkan people is very inaccurate, unless he is applying the word "Slav" in the modern sense to a people or peoples who did not identify ethnically or linguistically as "Slavic" in the ancient past. In either instance, it is wrong.

        The question at hand with Alinei is whether he believes the peoples of the south, whom he identifies as "Slav", descend from a single source and whether the modern Slavic speaking people of the north also descend from this same single source. Or does he believe that the peoples of the north (west and east) descend from a very different source, and perhaps spoke a very different language prior to "Slavic" spreading north. Which is to say, did a language spread from the south to the north among different ethnic groups (like Arabic spread to the west centuries later) or whether all "Slavs" descend from more or less a single source.

        The Yugoslav thesis was that the Balkan Slavs are ethnic Slavs, which is to say, descend from the migrating Slavs. Thus, all Slavs can trace their lineage more or less to this source from the north.

        The Pan Slavicsts such as Orbini shared a similar theory, but with a different interpretation. His thesis was that that the Balkan Slavs did not arrive in the 6th century or so, and they are not a product of a migration. His thesis is that they have always been in the present lands (which is to say a very long time). He also, however, would agree with the Yugoslav thesis that there is a single root lineage of all "Slavs".

        Alinei would probably agree with Orbini.

        I'm working with the thesis that there is no common or single descent of Slavic speakers, but that the Slavic speakers of the north (Poland, Ukraine, and Russia, etc) are more racially similar to each other than other Slavic speaking peoples. Central European Slavic speakers are racially more similar than the people of the north or south. And southern Slavic speakers are racially more similar with themselves than the north and central. However, there is a much grander variation among the southern Balkans than elsewhere. Racially, for example, Macedonians are more similar to Greeks than other Slavic speaking people.

        I'm also working with the thesis that the ancient Balkan people, if they were "Slavs", did not call themselves Slavs, but either Macedonians, Illyrians, etc. Hence, to call them "Slavs" or to call the modern day Balkan people "Slavs" is historically inaccurate.

        I think it is a plausible hypothesis that the Macedonian language is the oldest "Slavic" language, though it was never called "Slavic", and that it spread north, unlike Koine, which was already the lingua franca in the Mediterranean. This would assume, of course, that the Slavic Migration Theory is inaccurate, which I strongly suspect is the case.

        The term "Slav" or "Slavic" did not appear, it would seem, in the Balkans until the Slavic invaders arrived. So it is wrong to apply this term on today's Balkan people, even if the languages of the Balkan people and the invaders were similar.

        One of the more pressing problems in resolving this issue is when did the Macedonian language migrate north? And how is that the invading Slavs, who learned their language from the Balkan people, were not identified by the ancient historians to be similar in speech to the existing Balkan people of the time?

        This would have to be true if the southern branch of "Slavic" is the original, however. So the general hypothesis is that "Slavic" originated in the south, though it was never called as such, and migrated north to unrelated peoples.

        The counterargument--that Slavs migrated en mass to the Balkans, wiped out the existing peoples, leaving a small remnant, which intermixed with the invaders, and spread a new primitive language in the Balkans on culturally and linguistically superior nations--is highly improbable.
        Last edited by Constellation; 07-23-2014, 08:14 PM.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #34
          Originally posted by Constellation View Post
          The Yugoslav thesis was that the Balkan Slavs are ethnic Slavs,
          Well, they needed some mythology to bind the different ethnicities. Greeks played that game a whole lot better.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Constellation
            Member
            • Jul 2014
            • 217

            #35
            It is interesting to consider -- assuming ancient Macedonian was a "Slavic" language -- that Alexander the Great and the Macedonian leadership before him, while fond of Hellenic culture, left their mark on the world by spreading Macedonian north. Today, over 50% of Europe speak a Slavic language. What can explain this? What can account for this? Why is it that no other nation speaks Greek? And yet more than half of Europe speak Slavic?

            Is it more plausible to argue an empire like Macedonia spread their native language in parts of the world where Greek was not the lingua franca, or that primitive Slavic Migrants spread a language in what is now half of Europe?

            Comment

            • DraganOfStip
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2011
              • 1253

              #36
              Constellation,for someone who's hiding where his roots in Macedonia are,you seem to be obsessed by the Slavs.
              Most of your posts here include questions and theories about them,if you have a point then speak up.
              This forum (as the name implies) is about the truth about Macedonia,so if you want to know more about the Slavs then simply Google out or join forums specially created about them.
              Maybe the admins here should merge all the threads about Slavs in one so that you can just start from the top,read everything and make a conclusion instead of repeating yourself over and over in different threads.
              What is your real name anyway and where exactly from Macedonia are you?
              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
              ― George Orwell

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                #37
                Originally posted by Constellation View Post
                It is interesting to consider -- assuming ancient Macedonian was a "Slavic" language -- that Alexander the Great and the Macedonian leadership before him, while fond of Hellenic culture, left their mark on the world by spreading Macedonian north. Today, over 50% of Europe speak a Slavic language. What can explain this? What can account for this? Why is it that no other nation speaks Greek? And yet more than half of Europe speak Slavic?

                Is it more plausible to argue an empire like Macedonia spread their native language in parts of the world where Greek was not the lingua franca, or that primitive Slavic Migrants spread a language in what is now half of Europe?
                I agree and I have the same issues with the established version of events.

                The only missing piece of the puzzle is a written language. It is very hard to spread a language with out a written form. So far no one has proved that a written Macedonian language existed in Alexander time.

                Macedonia and Thrace were always a buffer to the north, that is why Greek didn't spread north. The Macedonians and Thracians did not speak Greek so it could not spread further North. Another thing is that central / east Europe was very sparsely populated during Alexanders time, and I wonder if a larger migration of Balkan people like Macedonians and Thracians did not migrate north once Rome conquered Macedonia. Then in central Europe is where the "Northern Slavs" met the Balkan peoples and mixed and brought the language North. The problem is after the fall of Macedonia to Rome, no one really cared what was going on in the northern frontiers.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #38
                  constellation are you aware that st kiril and Methodius spread orthodox Christianity.Not only this they created the Cyrillic alphabet based from the ancient Macedonian one..We know the Macedonians spoke their own language but written language was scarce,
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Constellation
                    Member
                    • Jul 2014
                    • 217

                    #39
                    Originally posted by George S. View Post
                    constellation are you aware that st kiril and Methodius spread orthodox Christianity.Not only this they created the Cyrillic alphabet based from the ancient Macedonian one..We know the Macedonians spoke their own language but written language was scarce,
                    Yes, George, I am aware.

                    Comment

                    • Constellation
                      Member
                      • Jul 2014
                      • 217

                      #40
                      Is this evidence of proto-Slavic?

                      Today's modern Macedonian language has both ancient Macedonian and Slavic background. How much modern Macedonian is based upon ancient Macedonian is impossible to say since we do not have many ancient Macedonian words that have survived, except about 150 glosses. Yet, ancient Macedonian words are still present in modern Macedonian. Alexander's infantry peshatairoi literally means "armed walking men" in modern Macedonian (peshatari). Hammond says that the ancient Macedonians called their commander tchelniku, which again means in modern Macedonian "somebody who leads" (chelniku). The Macedonian prodromoi, were the openers in the battles of Alexander the Great. Today in modern Macedonian this means "somebody who penetrates" (prodir), etc. Many ancient Macedonian names are still present among today's Macedonians, and many ancient Macedonian customs have the ancients have described have survived as well among today's Macedonians. The memory of Philip II and Alexander the Great echoes in the Macedonian folklore.


                      Or is this an example of ancient Macedonian words being fused with modern Macedonian?

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        #41
                        Since you haven't revealed the reason why you're so obsessed by the Slavs (you already started several threads directly related to them) and you didn't follow my advice,let me give you a couple of useful links to forums specially designed for Slavs,using a simple tool called "Google search":
                        Various theories indicate different origins of Slavs, depending on which branch of science (listed in the thread title) they are based. A truly complex theory, encompassing and analyzing results of research of all branches of science into one logical conclusion, has yet to be developed...






                        Glad to help you with your knowledge and satisfy your curiosity.
                        Enjoy.
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Tomche Makedonche
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 1123

                          #42
                          Zdravo Constelationov... ski... ov

                          No doubt you’ve seem to have done a whole lot of research on those Slavs of the Haemus Peninsula, and when you think about it, man... what an empire. I can’t say I’m as well versed in all the history as you or many of the others here are, especially about the most southern point of the peninsula, you know that stretch of land from Albania down to the tip of the Peloponnese. I’m sure we can all agree that Solun / Salonika was always a Slav city and was never Greek, that is until the inhabitants of Atina imported all those Christian Turks from Anatolia 100 years ago and created the modern Greek identity overnight right?, I mean you agree that's an undisputable truth yeah? (I’d appreciate an answer for this but I’ll take silence as a hell yes as well)

                          So when it comes to the Slavs and that stretch of land south of Albania to the tip of the Peloponnese, I never really understood what happened there, I mean were the inhabitants there Slavs as well?, or did the Slavs invade there in the 6th century, I mean if they were everywhere else, or invaded everywhere else, it would make sense that they made it all the way to the bottom yeah, like just stopping at Grevena seems odd doesn’t it, its like running the 100m and stopping at the 90metre mark and saying Ohhh bugger this, I can’t be stuffed anymore?

                          What are your thoughts on this?
                          Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 07-31-2014, 07:19 PM.
                          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            #43
                            Tell you what, this whole Slav-Peloponnese thing got my curiosity going, so I started checking out the plethora of information on this site and came across this pretty handy thread:
                            A collection of excerpts gathered from this forum, largely brought to our attention by Daskalot and TrueMacedonian, who have buried many a myth of the modern Greek on countless occasions. Origins of the inhabitants of Modern Greece: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=841 Albanian origins of the


                            Lets start how it starts, with the opening post by SoM

                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Origins of the inhabitants of Modern Greece:


                            Quote:
                            But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, at the end of the tenth century Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon. Unlike the Greek, for him the bonds of nationality are stronger than those of religion…..to assert that a Greek Christian is a Hellene is as reasonable as to call all Roman Catholics Italians; and to claim a Slav or Albanian as a Hellene because he speaks Greek, is much the same as calling an educated Russian French, or an Irishman English, because they prefer French or English to their own less developed languages. (A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)

                            Albanian origins of the liberators and leaders of Modern Greece:


                            Quote:
                            The chief authority was conceded to the Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution)

                            Quote:
                            The castle of Karytena, even in its ruins, has a proud feudal aspect, and was again, early in our century, the stronghold of one of the most famous and notorious of the revolutionary chiefs – Colocotroni. He ranks as a hero in that war……..He is described as of the Albanian type. (J. P Mahhafy, Greek Pictures)

                            Quote:
                            ……the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….this was merely the dance of the Albanians, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII)

                            Quote:
                            Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations..........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra..…..(Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)
                            Now I find all this odd, I mean modern Greeks, or as the 6th century Slavs used to call them "Pederite", talk of an unbroken history stretching back 4,000 years, but then you brought up the Slavs on the peninsula and I started thinking about its most southern point, which caused me to start scratching my head, and now I’ve found all this evidence of Albanian inhabitants?, so what happened?, I mean putting aside whether the Slavs were or weren’t there, how the hell did the Albanians end up there 200 years ago, and why aren’t they there anymore?, I can't make sense of it and its probably why thinking about history does my head in, but you seem to know a lot about this stuff so...

                            What are your thoughts on this?
                            Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 07-31-2014, 07:19 PM.
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

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