Ancient Historians considered Macedonians as separate & distinct entity!

[makedonin]

The last time I have spoke to Donski, June this year, he said that he has the texts. The translation is waiting for the funds he needs, and the book should appear late 2010.

That is what I have from him, back than. I don't know what is new or what was going on in the mean time.

By the way, all those Ancient Texts are part of private library of some German family.

[indigen]

Interesting,but can you show me any other Athenean rhetor,except Demosthenes?It is known that,Demosthenes had some kind of conflicts with Philip,because Philip had already ''beaten'' him at Macedonian Court.
At that time,Athens was in decrease.Rhetors were the ones that were really ruling the city-state.As you know,Atheneans were very sensitive on the freedom of speech.So especially,a famous rhetor could say whatever he wanted,up to a certain point in Ekklisia.
Thank you,

The "window of opportunity" was essentialy limited to the reign of Filip II and Alexander III of Macedon (Makedonski), i.e. the "Greeks" or Athenians in particular did not see the light of freedom after the Lamia ("Hellenic") War in 323-322 before our era. It is also very questionable/ debatable whether the current (neo) "Hellenes" can claim to have regained it, as some modern historians claim, in 1829 after more than 2,000 years of foreign domination. During this "window of opportunity" Demosthenes was the pre-eminent Orator/leading ideologist in Athens and when he was absent, due to exile or legal exclusion by Athenians for taking bribes, Hypereides emerged to elequently take his place. There was no opportunity for anti-Macedonian agitation between Macedonian victory at Battle of Chaeronea in 338 B.C. and the start of the Lamia ("Hellenic") War in 323 B.C., a period of approximately 15 years.

Following Alexander the Great’s death in 323 in Babylon, the Athenians were moved to liberate Hellas from Macedonian hegemony, whence the name “Hellenic War”. Shortly before Alexander expired he had ordered the return of all exiles hitherto banished from the Greek cities. For the most part this measure was popular, but was unwelcome in Athens and Aetolia for different reasons, and the death of Alexander was to be their opportunity for repealing this act.[1] Swayed principally by Hypereides, a staunch anti-Macedonian rhetor and demagogue, the Athenians went to war in the hopes of engendering a new, anti-Macedonian Hellenic League, and appointed Leosthenes general of the allied forces.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

You can read more about what Hyparides said at following link:
Hyperides, Funeral Oration: To Fallen General Leosthenes & Fellow Greek Soldiers

[34] For if it is for pleasure that men recall such feats of courage, what could be more pleasing to Greeks than the praise of those who gave them freedom from the Macedonian yoke?....

[osiris]

wanderer are you serious or just mischevious.

[Pelister]

Thanks for posting these quotes Indigen.

The Macedonian dance 'Teshkoto' performed by that group is absolutely stunning.

Macedonians (mainly UMD) who argue our ancient Macedonian roots are a product of 19th century nationalism - are ignorant of the facts.

Recall the Greek archeologist, Andronicus, who was murdered by poison shortly after he made the comment: "This is not a Greek tomb, its a Macedonian tomb".

[makedonche]

Indigen
The article by Gandeto and a lot of his other articles is priceless stuff! send a copy to UMD

[Serdarot]

...
In the wild Mariovo region in southern Macedonia (RM) matriarchy still reigns, costumes and customs are still archaic and civilization has only begun to arrive with a road built recently...”.

[Pribichevich: Macedonia – Its People and History, 1982.]

exactly and not only that, the people dont have in their collective memory any signs of some migrations, some "coming from..."

btw, you posted few of my favorites, but here are few more

Diodorus Siculus

- The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

Аρχеλαος, Μακεδоν τὸ γеνος (Архелеу, Македон то генос, по ген...род, РАСА)

Quintus Curtius Rufus

( Patron, the Greek commander, speaks with Darius

"we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks. We were all with you in your more fortunate days, and in your present situation we remain as we were when you were prospering, ready to make for and to accept as our country and our home any lands you choose. We and you have been drawn together both by your prosperity and your adversity. By this inviolable loyalty of ours I beg and beseech you: pitch your tent in our area of the camp and let us be your bodyguards. We have left Greece behind; for us there is no Bactria; our hopes rest entirely in you - I wish that were true of the others also! Further talk serves no purpose. As a foreigner born of ANOTHER RACE I should not be asking for the responsibility of guarding your person if I thought anyone else could do it." [p.112-13]

Династијата на Дариус како и поголемиот дел од Иранците се БЕЛА РАСА, Македонците исто. Ако Патрон за себе вели дека е од друга раса, значи не е бел. (Меѓутоа МОЖЕБИ се работи и за просторно определување - роден од друг Род, друго „племе“, друг ентитет, и сепак припадник на белата раса, така да треба да се истражува дополнително. moj komentar)

Btw, think about

...we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks...

fighting FOR Darius III Kodoman and the Persian Empire.

Greek conquest? Greek Expedition?

Diodorus Siculus (again)

- For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

Than, authors from 18th century and earlier speaking about "Macedonian" (not greek, Macedonian..) blood, when describing the events after Alexandro´s death.



We should also have in mind that his name is AlexandroY, NOT AlexandroS.

And "Phillip" is FillipoY, not PhillipoS.

Pronounced probably something like Ale(k)sandro-I or Ale(k)sandro-U, and Filipo-I or Filipo-U, where (k) were pronounced in some, and missed in some dialects.

Take in note that we have "-oV" on the end of our surnames or second names.

Petko TrajkoV FilipoV

DelcheV, KareV, AleksandroV

the Vlachs - AlexandrU, KonstantinU, VlahU

[osiris]

great stuff indigen

[Pelister]

Here is a tight little piece written by Gandeto.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/98213

Herodotus 5 .22 reports that Alexander I was regarded as ´barbaros´, a foreigner, a non-Greek by the Greek competitors at Olympia. The Olympic Games were reserved for Hellenes only. We are not concern whether he was later adjudged by the Hellanodikai as Greek. (Perhaps, Alexander I carried his "driver´s license" with him.) The point to remember is that he was not recognized as Greek to start with.

Isocrates 5.108, 154, paid tribute to Philip II as blue-blooded Greek and made it clear that Macedonians were not Greeks. "Isocrates himself", writes Werner Jeager, "the very man who heralds the idea of Macedonian leadership in Hellas, designates the people of Macedonia as members of an alien race in Phil. 108. He purposely avoids the word Barbaroi but this word is one that inevitably finds a place for itself in the Greek struggle for national independence and expresses the views of every true Hellene" (Jeager 1968: 249 n.7). Noteworthy point is Isocrates side stepping the people of Macedonia who would not be the rulers over Greece but their king Philip, who, naturally, is not a son of these Macedonians, but ethnologically proven to be a Heraclid, and thus of pure Greek extraction. Jeager, in regards to race, places the Macedonians outside the Greek fold and sees no historical excuse to use the race card in legitimizing the Macedonian conquest and dominion over the Greeks. In other words, the role of the Macedonians in their conquest of Persia does not have to travel through Greece and be viewed through a Greek perspective.

In the Histories (Herodotus), as we have just touched it upon, we find the Athenians giving reasons to the Spartans as to why they would not betray Greece (8.144.2); besides the destruction of the Greek shrines and the images of gods laying strewed on the ground and the burning desire for revenge by all Greeks, they include the following attributes common to all Greeks: common blood, common religion, common customs, common sacrifices and common language, and then, all together comprise the common way of life that separates the Greeks from all other foreigners i.e., barbarians. Here the language is one of the typically peculiar ´thing´ to Greeks only. He says that the Greeks always spoke Greek (1.58.1), and that Pelasgians a non-Hellenic population spoke a barbarian language that he could not understand. Only after learning Greek language did they become Greek (1.57.3).

Indeed, if one could speak Greek one would unquestionably be classed as Greek. Asiatics, and specifically Persians and Egyptians, whose cultural advances permeated into the Greek life, were classed as barbarian speaking peoples - meaning by ´barbarian´ no more then non- Hellenic. There are very few instances recorded in literature where a Greek learns a foreign language. Plutarch reports that Themistocles spoke Persian (Them. 29.5), but for the most part we find the other races learning Greek. As a matter of fact, Greeks behaved as if learning a foreign language was reserved for the barbarians only, who could not speak Greek and it was their duty to learn it. There was this persistent, and a high degree of arrogant lack of interest in learning a foreign language.

"The Greek language was seen as a symbol of Greek unity, and of Greeks belonging to their land; it was also a weapon" (Harris "Herodotus Conception of Foreign languages" HISTOS Vol 2 1998). Naturally, it was understood, and readily accepted, that speakers of a same language must have had a common descent. A common descent meant sharing of some primordial connections to, and acquiring inborn influences from, a distant progenitor whose progeny enjoyed, and subsequently passed on the learned social manifestations, customs and religious observances. These social belonging and interactions, coupled with the unifying glue called language, produced the first awareness of ethnicity among the ancient people.

Hence, genos and syngeneia expressed the notion of common belonging, of ´sameness´, of kinship. This awareness of kinship was transmitted through the element of haima, blood, and thereby, we come to a point where blood is taken to represent the essence of connectedness with the original progenitor. In Herodotus we find ´blood´ as one of the principal determinant of Greekness, of purity, and we have also established the connection between language and ethnicity, where language came to reinforce ´blood´ in defining ethnic groups. Thus, ethnicity was characterized through purity of blood, expressed through social and cultural interactions and defined and/or determined through the usage of a language. In sum a foreigner is any person who does not speak Greek, and thus, he is a barbarian, meaning non-Hellene.

Thuc. 20. 80.5-7; 2. 81.6; 4. 124.1 puts the Macedonian contingents among the barbarians. Badian in "Greeks and Macedonians" n.21 writes: "from the very etymology of that word "barbarians" were people whom Greeks could not understand. When the ancient Macedonian kings were called barbarians it was not done for political reasons or a personal vendetta, but it was a calculated choice used to denigrate their culture, their race, their origin and their way of life; in other words ´barbaroi´ meant ´I hold you, and your institutions and your way of life as beneath me, because you lack the basic determinants/attributes of which a Greek is in possession of. You neither speak like a Greek, do not live like a Greek, nor do you think like a Greek.

And, once again, we came to this often visited intersection; there are some very progressive Greeks who do not subscribe to this middle-age Greek thinking and who see the people in the Balkans living in peace and harmony—these are the true Greeks and then, there are newly created Greeks, those whose heritage has been wiped out and replaced with the newly "morphed" ethnicity "Greek-Macedonian". Since they—in this Greek created problem—stand to lose the most, they are the "true" Greek soldiers in the forefront fighting the battle. I am sure they wouldn´t dare dig deeper into their past because they will inevitably find "skeletons" which have another story to tell: their grandfathers did not even speak Greek nor did they share in these "megali" Greek dream. What they dreamed the most and with a heavy heart longed for, were their abandoned homes, forsaken culture and their way of life in their Asia Minor communities.

Sooner than later all these Greek lies and fabrications will run their course and Europe will have no choice but to put an end to this Greek farce.

[TrueMacedonian]

Evidence Of Ancient Macedonian Culture Surviving In The Living Culture Of Modern Indigenous Macedonian Nation:

“...The Macedonian dances ...belong among the oldest recorded dances in the world....

....West Macedonian dances.......slow motion dances, danced only by men, with long, measured steps. The only accompaniment is the drum and a high-pitched wind instrument. One of these dances is the “Teshkoto”. Now it is called a shepherd’s dance, of nimble leaps from rock to rock, watching for possible beast or bandit.

Actually, it is an archaic Macedonian dance from pre-slav times, dramatizing the difficult life of the Macedonians, recalling border warfare and raids, the unending battle to defend the flocks, the land, the tribe.

YouTube - Teskoto-Ansambl TANEC.avi

In the beginning , says Dr. Mane Chuchkov, Macedonian musicologist and economic geographer, people had nothing but body movements to show how they lived. …

There are also ancient Macedonian dances performed to the beat of drums only. And there are silent dances with no instruments or singing or hand-clapping at all. They are the eeriest, sometimes interspersed with weird cries. In “silent” dances rhythm and beat are supplied either by a measured repetition of an accented dance step or by the jingling of the coins and trinkets with which the women’s dresses are adorned, or by periodic shouts. It is these strange and haunting “dumb” dances, where the feet thud in precise unison without a sound of song or music and men every once in a while leap high into the air, which more than any other stir the spectator in a profound way.

The instruments accompanying the Macedonian dances are usually the drum and various wind instruments. Among the latter is the kaval, an ordinary pipe. The longer the pipe, the more sonorous its sound.
The kaval has no “tongue” or whistle-head. You blow it as you do a pencil cap, across the edge of the opening. The zurla, a wood instrument similar to the oboe, has a double mouthpiece and two whistle-heads is a double-reed instrument. In London the zurla player of the dance group of Tanec, Slave Tashevski, created a furor. You could ask him to play this song or that or “just nothing,” that is, to improvise. He could not read music. The zurla and the drum are not Turkish, as often believed. You find them in frescoes preceding the Turks. They arrived in the Balkans before the Slavs. The Macedonian bagpipe has a seventh little hole with a straw, not for producing a tone but for ornamenting it: it does the murmuring. It is therefore called mrmorec— the “murmurer”— and is only one-and-a-half millimeters wide.


In the wild Mariovo region in southern Macedonia (RM) matriarchy still reigns, costumes and customs are still archaic and civilization has only begun to arrive with a road built recently...”.

[Pribichevich: Macedonia – Its People and History, 1982.]

----------

Pece Atanasovski x2 - Macedonian folk dances

II. Pece Atanasovski - Macedonian folk dances
Tracklist w. notes transcribed from cover:

TESHKOTO - this dance originates from the Western part of Macedonia and it is well-known as the most expressive representative of the Macedonian folklore. It is danced only by men. Rhytham 4/4.

[...]

----------

Simple Dances: Where Do They Come From, Where Do They Lead?
by Laura Shannon

Many of the most common folk dances belong to a single family, whose basic step provides an ancient and archetypal template for many of the simple dances in our repertoire. There are so many different variations on the basic theme that we tend to overlook their interrelation and treat them as completely separate dances, and it can be surprising to find out how many dances derive from the same root pattern. This discovery suggests that something essential and unchanging is common to dances of many different cultures, and also, paradoxically, illuminates the process of evolution through which dance forms continually change.

The ancient dance family of which I speak is the group of three-measure dances such as the Macedonian Pravo Oro, where the first two measures travel and the third measure mirrors the second. Another way to describe it is `step, step, step, do something, step, do something'. Still another way is `three steps forward (pause), one step back (pause).'

[.....]

http://www.laurashannon.net/articles...pleDances.html

Don't dupe our people with Pribichevich's book because you are outright misinforming them now in order to prove your indigenous cultural continuity theory. Here's what Pribichevich actually states which you knowingly left out;



Really,,, the ancient Macedonians left no descendents but the Albanians are the descendents to the Illyrians, the modern 'greeks' the descendents of the ancient Hellene, and the Vlachs the descendents of the Thracians? I've noticed you using Pribichevich alot for other facets of Macedonian history. However you are duping the reader into a false conclusion by not including what he actually wrote. How about showing everyone what you left out specifically;




I saw somewhere that you said that you don't like it when Macedonians on forums post scanned pages of books. I can see why after you mislead people with Pribichevich's book by skipping sentences and avoiding his comparison to Albanian dances which would infer something different than your indigenous theory.

[TrueMacedonian]

Thanks for posting these quotes Indigen.

The Macedonian dance 'Teshkoto' performed by that group is absolutely stunning.

Macedonians (mainly UMD) who argue our ancient Macedonian roots are a product of 19th century nationalism - are ignorant of the facts.

Recall the Greek archeologist, Andronicus, who was murdered by poison shortly after he made the comment: "This is not a Greek tomb, its a Macedonian tomb".

I recommend you actually read Pribichevich's book instead of blindly taking indigens post serious and pointing fingers at people. Indigen seems no better than Vasil Bogov in this instance.

[Onur]

The instruments accompanying the Macedonian dances are usually the drum and various wind instruments. Among the latter is the kaval, an ordinary pipe. The longer the pipe, the more sonorous its sound.
The kaval has no “tongue” or whistle-head. You blow it as you do a pencil cap, across the edge of the opening. The zurla, a wood instrument similar to the oboe, has a double mouthpiece and two whistle-heads is a double-reed instrument. In London the zurla player of the dance group of Tanec, Slave Tashevski, created a furor. You could ask him to play this song or that or “just nothing,” that is, to improvise. He could not read music. The zurla and the drum are not Turkish, as often believed. You find them in frescoes preceding the Turks. They arrived in the Balkans before the Slavs.

Well, I am sorry but all those instruments written here are definitely Turkish. The names of the instruments(Davul, Zurna, Kaval) are etymologically Turkish as well.

We have documents which describes world`s first military marching band, "Mehter" using all these instruments as early as late 12th century. Traveler "Evliya Celebi" describes all these instruments in his books. Also there are pictures of them used in Turkish shadow theater "Karagoz & Hacivat" dated 14th century. Then you can find descriptions of the instruments used by "Mehter" at Byzantium Empire archives as early as 14th century.

So, "Davul, zurna and Kaval" definitely brought to Balkans by the Turks.



Also, the video you linked is so nice. I found it very similar to the some forms of Turkish "Zeybek"(Greeks calls it zeibekikos and ofc claims as their own dance, like they do it to most of Turkish stuff, hehe)

This is Izmir and Aidin style of ancient Zeybek dance. Solo representation;

YouTube - kocaarap ödemişli efeden


Dont get me wrong. I am not saying all of these dance styles are Turkish originated. No one can have proof for most of their source. I don't care about it, and all Balkan dances are quite same anyway.

Most of people in my city learns these traditional dances at primary schools. Especially these men only dances are so cool with bravery poses and drunken moves. I like it

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur, you have to accept that the Turks received as well as gave, while the word 'kaval' may have a Turkish meaning, to claim that there were no wind instruments of a similar nature in the Balkans prior to the arrival of the Ottomans is untrue. Same for the traditional dances, many of which hark back to roots from the Illyrians (see Wilkies). The word 'pogacha' for example, do you think this is Turkish or Macedonian?

I guess a good method of comparison would be to see how your modern Turkish traditions, words, dances, etc measure up against those of the Altaic groups in central Asia.

[Serdarot]

So, "Davul, zurna and Kaval" definitely brought to Balkans by the Turks.

i disagree, about Zurla / Zurna specialy

[Onur]

Onur, you have to accept that the Turks received as well as gave, while the word 'kaval' may have a Turkish meaning, to claim that there were no wind instruments of a similar nature in the Balkans prior to the arrival of the Ottomans is untrue. Same for the traditional dances, many of which hark back to roots from the Illyrians (see Wilkies). The word 'pogacha' for example, do you think this is Turkish or Macedonian?

I guess a good method of comparison would be to see how your modern Turkish traditions, words, dances, etc measure up against those of the Altaic groups in central Asia.

Ofc i accept that SOM and i am even proud of it that we gave and received(shared) cultural elements.

Also, i was only talking about these specific 3 instrument(Davul, kaval, zurna) used in the video 'Teshkoto'. Ofc claiming all wind instruments at Balkans came with Ottomans would be absurd. I never say something like that.

Unfortunately, comparing with other Altaic groups is not that useful since we got separated from them more than 1000 years ago and we created, added and shared a lot of cultural elements since than.

[Onur]

i disagree, about Zurla / Zurna specialy

Well, i remember that the "Zurna" described in "Codex Cumanicus" as the instrument played by Turkish Cumans at the North of Black sea.

Its a language guidebook and Turkish-Italian(Latin) dictionary written by German and Italian missioners to convert these Turks to Christianity, dated at 1100s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Cumanicus

http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/paksoy-2/cam2.html

Do you know older record of "Zurna" than the year of 1100???