Makedoncite vo Diadohiite - Macedonians in the Diadochi Empires

[Serdarot]

For example, sometimes it is so clear that it is ment on ethnic ground... when nubian or lybian, scytian, jewish, egiptian and other troops are armed "macedonian way", they dont write "macedonians", but lybians, nubians, scythians, etc...

If someone spoke Macedonian, it was write it is Macedonian, separate to Greek (or later Bulgarian and other new-created languages, or other languages of the time.

like this picture best shows it:

[julie]

I like that quote Serdarot, it differentiates Macedonians from Slavs

[Serdarot]

because we will use some Roman / Latin sources, to mention that:

…назывались именами языковъ напр. Legio Pannonica, Macedonica но эти имена означали только то что полкъ расположенъ по Паннонiи и или Македонiи, Если же Римляне ХОTEЛИ означить jзыкъ или племя то употребляли его имявомиож родит пад chors Pannoniorum, Macedonum, те кохорта Панонцев, Македонцев

племя = tribe, mak. pleme, rod



btw, how strange, both pictures, first - Macedonian language in Kubrat´s time, second picture - better proove that the Macedonians were not exterminated by the Romans, you can not have.

If macedonians don´t exist, you can not make Falangi and Legions with Macedonians

[Bill77]

Well,the title of the book may sound a bit funny but you should have noticed it,this book is cited by a Jewish site and Jews are not joking at all with matters that concern their history

Josephus (Jewish Historian)

Josephus, Flavius: "...The Greeks...wrote their histories from their own conjectures" (A.D. 37?-100?),

How can it then be other than an absurd thing, for the Greeks to be so proud, and to vaunt themselves to be the only people that are acquainted with antiquity, and that have delivered the true accounts of those early times after an accurate manner? Nay, who is there that cannot easily gather from the Greek writers themselves, that they knew but little on any good foundation when they set to write, but rather wrote their histories from their own conjectures? Accordingly, they confute one another in their own books to purpose, and are not ashamed.
Josephus, Against Apion Book 1.3
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-1.htm

This Jew is not joking. And i am sure you agree




Lets see what this Jew has to say regarding Macedonians and Greeks,

Flavius Josephus: Clear distinction between Macedonans and "Greeks"

Greeks and Macedonians that dwelt there" [Antiquities,13.5.11]

"…and gave them privileges equal to those of the Macedonians and Greeks, who were the inhabitants… [Antiquities, 12.3.1]

"…how much harder is to the Greeks, who were esteemed the noblest of all people under sun? These, although they inhabit a large country, are in subjection to six bundles of Roman rods. It is the same case with the Macedonians, who have juster reason to claim their liberty then you have." [Wars, 2.16.4]

"These Egyptians, therefore, were the authors of these troubles, who not having the constancy of Macedonians, nor the prudence of Greeks, indulged all of them the evil manners of the Egyptians" [Against Apion, 2.6.]

Babylonians attacked the Jews, which made those Jews so, vehemently to resent the injuries they received from the Babylonians, that being neither able to fight them, nor bearing to live with them, they went to Seleucia, the principal city of those parts, which was built by Seleucus Nicator. It was inhabited by many of the Macedonians, but by more of the Grecians; not a few of the Syrians also dwelt there;
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 18.9.8

But Demetrius passed over [Euphrates], and came into Mesopotamia, as desirous to retain that country still, as well as Babylon; and when he should have obtained the dominion of the upper provinces, to lay a foundation for recovering his entire kingdom; for those Greeks and Macedonians who dwelt there frequently sent ambassadors to him, and promised, that if he would come to them, they would deliver themselves up to him, and assist him in fighting against Arsaces, (12) the king of the Parthians.
Antiquities of the Jews 13.5.11

THE Jews also obtained honors from the kings of Asia when they became their auxiliaries; for Seleucus Nicator made them citizens in those cities which he built in Asia, and in the lower Syria, and in the metropolis itself, Antioch; and gave them privileges equal to those of the Macedonians and Greeks, who were the inhabitants, insomuch that these privileges continue to this very day:
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 12.3.1

[Serdarot]

I like that quote Serdarot, it differentiates Macedonians from Slavs

sure we are not the same with the Rusians, Ukrainians, nor with the rest of the so called "Slavic Nations" (we are connected with few, still far away from being the same ), but the term(s) "Slavjan" , "Slav" , "Sloven" were time after time also used to define us, the Macedonians.

Mostly couse of the following reasons:

- since pre-ancient time the were migrations from South for North-East, the "greek" (greek? from pre-greek time`? lol...) cities in the Ukrainian Cost
- some Macedonians of course left Macedonia after the fall of the Macedonian Kingdom under Roman occupation / control (our ancestors lost at least one battle couse the "allied" greeks changed side in middle of the battle )
- even some of our closer ancestors migrated there, not by their own will, internated / jailed in the Soviet camps, etc. we know good that part of the story, our Brave Fighters , from the last "Greko-Roman vs Makedon" war, also known as "greek civil war", what is completely wrong name
- the daughters and the sons of those who emigrated there, of course felt not less Macedonian than we feel today, no metter we live so far away from our MotherLand Makedonia

- the aspirations of Rusia and other "brother" nations to put us under their control, or use us for their interest,
- or "simply" to occupy us (serbia, bulgaria)
- or to justify ongoing occupation (greece, serbia, bulgaria, albania, kosovo)
- to serve in the germano-british-french interests and their "misteria" and "histeria" instead of istoria
- few more... nevermind...

i dont think that we should be ashamed is someone like to call us Slaven and Sloven

Glorified and Literated / Educated / Lettered

Also "Slovo Bozje" - The Teaching of Isus Risto(s) was given from Sveti Pavle to the Macedonians, so it was (Blago)"Sloven" Narod

no need to be ashame of that term, only have to make it clear that we are Macedonians, and if someone want to say "Glorified" , "famous" , Blessed , Chosen, and literated , ok, welcomed.

A nation can have dozens of names, like the germans and many others, in diferent places / areas, and diferent times / situations, languages...

But to claim that we are some "slavo-Makedoni", who came from behind the karpati and have no connection with the Ancient Makedoni, is very, very stupid

[Agamoi Thytai]

Well done my frined.Now let's examine all your quotes one by one

One?

Diodorus Siculus

For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of ANOTHER RACE and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death.

17.99.5-6.

Well,I think you're misunderstanding the text here.The phrase "the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of ANOTHER RACE" refers to the Greek colonists that were settled by Alexander in Bactria and Sogdiana among various Persian,Median and Afghan tribes.Thus by that phrase,that is "another race", Diodours means the later and not the Macedonians.If you want to point out that these Greek colonists revolted against Macedonians and were massacrd by them,the Mytilinenas had a century before "revolted against the Hellenes" as they said themselves.Were they not Greek?

http://books.google.gr/books?id=GkiNCPG6DZ4C&pg=PA91

And such massacres were very common in ancient Greek world.The Athenians had similarly massacred the inhabitants of Melos island:

http://books.google.gr/books?id=1Dx69P2xA_UC&pg=PR9

[QUOTE=Serdarot;82088]
The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him…
18.37.3-4.

Аρχеλαος, Μακεδоν τὸ γеνος <---[QUOTE=Serdarot;82088]
I am glad to see that you uderstand few basic Greek words.Yes,Μακεδών το γένος can be translated as "Macedonian by race".However you obviously ignore (and I don't blame you for that when I see even distinguished classic scholars doing the same) that the word "genos" in ancient Greek has also the meaning of "tribe" "descend" and "clan" besides of "race" or "ethnicity".

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ge\nos&la=greek

Thus Greek authors very frequently use the word γένος to describe various other Greek tribes.Let's see what the word γένος denotes in ancient Greek and in what sense Greek historians used it.Thus,Herodotus mentions in his story of Cleobis and Biton from Argos that they were

γένος Ἀργείοισι

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0125%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D31%3Asection%3D2

that is "of Argive stock"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D31%3Asection%3D2

In another instance,Cleander from Phygalea,a city of Peloponnesus is described as

γένος ἐὼν Φιγαλεὺς ἀπ᾽ Ἀρκαδίης

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0125%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D83%3Asection%3D2

that is "Cleander, a man of Phigalea in Arcadia by birth"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D83%3Asection%3D2

A woman from the island of Cos states that she is
γένος μὲν Κῴη

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0125%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D76%3Asection%3D2

that is "a Coan by birth"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D76%3Asection%3D2

The inhabitants of Croton
γένος εἰσὶ Ἀχαιοί.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0125%3Abook%3D8%3Achapter%3D47%3Asection%3D1

that is they "are Achaeans by birth".

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D8%3Achapter%3D47%3Asection%3D1

Herodotus mentions

τὸ γένος τὸ Ἀττικὸν

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0125%3Abook%3D5%3Achapter%3D91%3Asection%3D1

And the English scholar translated it simply as "the Athenians"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D5%3Achapter%3D91%3Asection%3D1

Also Herodotus writes that Lacedaemonians were the chief peoples among those that were of "Δωρικοῦ γένεος" while Athenians were the chief peoles among thos of " Ἰωνικοῦ γένεος"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0125%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D56%3Asection%3D2

that is "the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D56%3Asection%3D2

So what did actually the word γένος mean for ancient Greeks.Aristotle has the answer:

The term "genus" <or "race"> is used: (a) When there is a continuous generation of things of the same type; e.g., "as long as the human race exists" means "as long as the generation of human beings is continuous." (b) Of anything from which things derive their being as the prime mover of them into being. Thus some are called Hellenes by race, and others Ionians, because some have Hellen and others Ion as their first ancestor.(Races are called after the male ancestor rather than after the material.1 Some derive their race from the female as well; e.g. "the descendants of Pyrrha

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D5%3Asection%3D1024a

not a good idea to bring up Diodorus Siculus',because he also wrote this:

and the Athenians were not ready to concede the leading position among the Greeks to Macedon

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D17%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D2

Similarly, the Thebans voted to drive out the garrison in the Cadmeia and not to concede to Alexander the leadership of the Greeks.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D17%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D4

Quintus Curtius Rufus

The commander of the greek mercenaries talking to the Shah-an-Shah Darius III Kodoman

"we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks. We were all with you in your more fortunate days, and in your present situation we remain as we were when you were prospering, ready to make for and to accept as our country and our home any lands you choose. We and you have been drawn together both by your prosperity and your adversity. By this inviolable loyalty of ours I beg and beseech you: pitch your tent in our area of the camp and let us be your bodyguards. We have left Greece behind; for us there is no Bactria; our hopes rest entirely in you - I wish that were true of the others also! Further talk serves no purpose. As a foreigner born of ANOTHER RACE I should not be asking for the responsibility of guarding your person if I thought anyone else could do it." [p.112-13]

Why did you write with caps the phrase "of ANOTHER RACE" ?What does it prove?The commander of the Greek mercenaries is talking to a Persian king here,so the phrase "as a foreigner born of another race" is addressed to a Persian,not to any Macedonian!

Arrian
Book II , Battle of Isus [p.119]

That's the most frequently used quote by you to "prove" that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks.However it's simply a matter of mistranslation.Arrian nowhere mentions in the Greek text any "racial rivalry".The phrase in question is :

καὶ τι καὶ τοῖς γένεσι τῷ τε Ἑλληνικῷ καὶ τῷ Μακεδονικῷ φιλοτιμίας ἐνέπεσεν ἐς άλλήλους

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/386/arrianii10.png

a transliteration in Latin:

kai ti kai tois genesi to te Helleniko kai to Makedoniko filotimias enepesen es allelous

Two are the key words:
a)γένεσι,plural dative of γένος,applied to "Helleniko" and "Makedoniko".We've already seen in what sense the word genos was used,especially the last quote of Aristotle that speaks of Hellenic and Ionian genos.
b)φιλοτιμία,which is wrongfully translated as rivalry.In fact filotimia means "love of honour",it's the the virtue of motivation that makes a competition intense or even the ambition to gain honour:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=filotimi\a&la=greek

The word filotimia survives slightly altered in modern Greek as filotimo:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wQirAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=health+and+healing+in+rural+greece&hl=el&ei=gJsCTYGiIsqV4gaj9LDRCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=philotimo&f=false

A more precise translation of that passage is here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=a2IOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA45

[Agamoi Thytai]

I am not going to waist my time explaining IMO what is meant in all the quotes you posted. It's not going to make a difference for you. You would rather stay in the dark. But i must comment on the one above which is a common one thrown by deluded greeks .


Alexander ruled over Greece. all its possessions now belonged to him. Is it any wander why his heart will be in it to fight for Greece?

Just like in modern days in Irag and the US war on terror. Did you ever hear words coming from the Bush administration along the lines of "We will fight to free Iraq" Now by Bush claiming to be fighting for the Iraqis, does this make Him and his people Iraqis? Bullshit, Just like Alexander, we know what Bush fought for.

And he to had foreign troops fighting for his interests just like Alexander did (Thracians,Paeonians,Illyrians,Agrianes,they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe). Bush called his "Coalition of the willing".

Bush also had Iraqis fighting against Iraqis. Bush also would have wandered about the side fighting for Al-Qaeda and suggested "but how different is their cause from ours"

PS: By using Bush as an example, no way am i Calling Georgi boy another Alexander the great

I don't think your example with Bush makes any sense.Bush may have stated all what you've writen above,however he never claimed that he is an Iraqi.Alexander instead self declared as Greek.

[Agamoi Thytai]

The above thread has a lot of information which clearly establishes that Ancient Macedonians and Ancient "Greeks" were ethnically, culturally and linguistically two separate and distinct entities - no ifs, no buts! Try reading through it and post back here if you have any further questions but as far as I am concerned, it is case closed!

NB: Just keep in mind that I prefer that particular topic thread remain a collection of useful information (posted by myself or contributed by others - Macedonians or well intentioned friends of Macedonians) and not a place for useless/off-topic "discussion" that will bury 40 plus pages deep the good stuff.

So you use Hammond and Waldemar Heckel to back your view that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks???What's next?
Anyway,it's true that some Greeks (mainly Athenian politicians) considered Macedonians as barbarians,but this only happened out of political reasons,because the Athenian supremacy over the Greek world was threatened by Philip.In the time before Philip,when Macedonia wasn't yet a powerful state,Athenians had no problem to accept Macedonian representatives of king Amyntas to join and vote in a panhellenic congress concerning the capture of Amphipolis by Athenian troops:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2JT_zty82ZUC&pg=PA429

Do we have any other example of non-Greek peoples attending panhellenic congresses at that time and even voting?

[Bill77]

Now show me one quote of the above historians that explicitly describes Macedonians as non-Greeks:

Plutarch, the ancient Greek historian from 1st century AD quoted Alexander’s words where the king himself separates the Macedonians from the Greeks as distinct nation: “When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts?” (Alex.51.2)



History of Alexander the Great by Quintus Curtius Rufus. According to the story told by Rufus when Philotas son of Parmenio was put on trial in front of the Macedonian army (large part of which were the Greeks), Alexander asked him, "Philotas, the Macedonians are going to judge you, state whether you will use your mother-tongue in front of them." Philotas answered that he will not, because not everyone will be able to understand him, which provoked Alexander to respond, that Philota hates his mother-tongue.148
The conclusion to this short story is that Philotas decided not to speak his native language (Macedonian) in front of the army because it was a different one from the common language of the entire army (Greek). Since the Macedonians and Greeks did not speak the same language, they can not be considered the same people.
Quintus Curtius Rufus, Alexander, VI. ix. 34-36




During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native language, as the native language language of Alexander the Great was not understood by the ancient Greeks (Quintus Curtius Rufus, VI, 9, 37 ).


Plutarch points out that Alexander spoke to his fellow countrymen in Macedonian: "he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51).


Ernst Badian, (professor and chair person at Harvard History Department)
The usage of the Macedonian language, and thereby its existence, is confirmed by the following episode: ...after one symposium Alexander the Great felt that his life was threatened and he is said to have called for his guards in Macedonian. When his life was threatened he reverts to his more primitive psyche, "He used the only language in which his guards could be addressed".
[Note: The guards could be addressed in Macedonian only.]


Episode #2. Eumenes of Cardia. In 321 B.C., Greek commander Ambiance, with cavalry and light arms only, faced the Macedonian noble, Neoptholemus, with the Macedonian phalanx. To avoid battle Xennias, a man whose speech was Macedonian, was sent by Eumenes to negotiate with the commander of the phalanx. Badian analyzes:
"Now, Xennias' name at once shows him to be a Macedonian. Since he was in Ambiance's entourage he was presumably a Macedonian of superior status, who spoke both standard Greek and his native language. He was the man who could be trusted to transmit Ambiance's message. This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And almost equally interesting - he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally address soldiers who understood them, nor did he sent a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was a difficult, indeed a foreign language to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood".
It is documented that Ambiance had experienced extreme difficulties in commanding the Macedonian soldiers. His disability was "not only his Greek birth, as has always being realized, but the simple fact that he could not directly communicate with the Macedonian soldiers". "His alien culture and provenance were not only obvious in an accent; it was a matter of a language".
["It was a matter of a language..."]
("Studies in the History of Art Vol 10: Macedonia and Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times".)

My Favourite:
The Greek orator Demosthenes, spoke of Alexander the Great’s father Philip II as "not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" (Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31).

Justin, the Roman historian from the 3rd century AD wrote: "Antipater was appointed governor of Macedonia and Greece" (Justin 13.4.5)

Arrian, the ancient Greek historian from the 2nd century AD wrote: "Darius' Greek mercenaries attacked the Macedonian phalanx… the Macedonian centre did not set to with equal impetus… and the Greeks attacked where they saw that the phalanx had been particularly torn apart. There the action was severe, the Greeks tried to push off the Macedonians into the river and to reserve victory to their own side… There was also some emulation between antagonists of the Greek and Macedonian races" (Arrian 2.10.4-7).

Pausanias, the ancient Greek historian from the 2nd century AD wrote: "the united Greeks defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia" (Pausanias 1.1.3)

Plutarch, the ancient Greek historian from 1st century AD quoted Alexander’s words where the king himself separates the Macedonians from the Greeks as distinct nation: “When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts?” (Alex.51.2)


Quintus Curtius Rufus:
Life of Alexander the Great
330*B.C.: Back in Greece, the Lacedemonians find the time ripe to rebel; their revolt is quelled. Le*repos du*guerrier: Alexander consolidates his hold on his new empire, but also spends a lot of his time drinking and feasting. He is visited by the Queen of the Amazons and an escort of*300 female warriors: she wants to beget a girl by him, offering him any boy that might be born; he demurs. Alexander requires his own Greeks and Macedonians to perform obeisance to him in the Persian style, by prostrating themselves (προσκυνησις): this leads to serious unrest among them. Several high-ranking officers of Alexander's plot to kill him, the plot is discovered thru a comic-opera squabble of two homosexual lovers, and the guilty parties commit suicide or are tortured and executed.
Book- VI


Here is an opinion of a more modern day German:

Die Macedonier muss man nicht zu den Griechen ziehen;
sie wurden auch von den Alten nicht zu denselben gerechnet
und Barbaren genannt; ja Macedo war ein Schimpfname.
Македонците не треба да се сметаат за Грци;
од старите тие не беа сметани за исти и ги нарекуваа Варвари; да Macedo беше пцовка-име.

Sie unterschieden sich von den Griechen in den Sitten und hatten
noch lange viel Barbarisches, als die Griechen schon cultivirt
waren. Тие се разликуваа од Грците во етиката и имаа во себе уште долго време многу варварско, додека грците беа култивирани.

Das erstemal wo wir Macedonien glänzen sehen, ist zur Zeit des Archelaus zu Sokrates Zeit. Dieser hat einen, Hof, wo griechische Cultur, und eine Mengen junger Leute, um sich. Im Lande selbst war keine Bildung; diese wurde erst zu Philipps Zeiten bewerkstelligt.
За прв пат каде што ја гледаме Македонија да „блеска„, е во времето на "Archelaus" за "Sokrates"-кото време. Тој имаше еден двор, каде што грчката култура и многу млади луѓе покрај себе. Во државата немаше образование; тоа се појави за времето на Филип.

Auch waren die Macedonier von den Griechen durch die Sprache unterschieden.
Македонците беа и по јазикот различни од Грците.

Es wargar kein rein griechischer Dialekt. ef. Strabo 6, pag. 326. Curtius lib. 9, cap. 9, 34 übertrebt es so, dass man einen Macedonier gar nicht hätte verstehen können.
Не беше ниту грчки диалект ef. Strabo 6, pag. 326. Curtius lib. 9, cap. 9, 34 претерува дури, дека Македонецот не можеше воопшто да се разбере.

Allein dieser Mann weiss nichts. So viel ist aber gewiss, die Macedonier waren von den Griechen sehr verschieden in Regierungsform, Sitten und Sprache; deshalb geht uns hier Macedonien als Macedonien nichts an.
Сам тој човек не знае ништо. Толку се знае, Македонците се разликуваа од Грците; затоа Македонија како Македонија овде не нè интересира повеќе.

Translation of above,

The Macedonians should not be considered as Greeks; They were not considered the same by the ancients, who called them Barbarians; Macedo was an insulting epithet.

They differed from the Greeks in manners and they were far more barbaric, while the Greeks were cultivated.

The first time we see Macedonia excel Macedonia is during the time of Archelaus in the Socrates period. He had one yard, with placed Greek culture around a number of young people. In the country there was no education; that was achieved during the time of Philip.

Also, the Macedonians were distinct from the Greeks through language.

It wasn't a purely Greek dialect, ef. Strabo, 6, pag 326th Curtius lib. 9, cap. 9, 34 even suggest, that the Macedonians did not understand.

But this man knows nothing. This much is certain, the Macedonians were very different from the Greeks in the form of government, customs and language....



Flavius Josephus: Clear distinction between Macedonans and "Greeks"

Greeks and Macedonians that dwelt there" [Antiquities,13.5.11]

"…and gave them privileges equal to those of the Macedonians and Greeks, who were the inhabitants… [Antiquities, 12.3.1]

"…how much harder is to the Greeks, who were esteemed the noblest of all people under sun? These, although they inhabit a large country, are in subjection to six bundles of Roman rods. It is the same case with the Macedonians, who have juster reason to claim their liberty then you have." [Wars, 2.16.4]

"These Egyptians, therefore, were the authors of these troubles, who not having the constancy of Macedonians, nor the prudence of Greeks, indulged all of them the evil manners of the Egyptians" [Against Apion, 2.6.]

Josephus, Flavius: "...The Greeks...wrote their histories from their own conjectures"

How can it then be other than an absurd thing, for the Greeks to be so proud, and to vaunt themselves to be the only people that are acquainted with antiquity, and that have delivered the true accounts of those early times after an accurate manner? Nay, who is there that cannot easily gather from the Greek writers themselves, that they knew but little on any good foundation when they set to write, but rather wrote their histories from their own conjectures? Accordingly, they confute one another in their own books to purpose, and are not ashamed.
Josephus, Against Apion Book 1.3

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-1.htm

Babylonians attacked the Jews, which made those Jews so, vehemently to resent the injuries they received from the Babylonians, that being neither able to fight them, nor bearing to live with them, they went to Seleucia, the principal city of those parts, which was built by Seleucus Nicator. It was inhabited by many of the Macedonians, but by more of the Grecians; not a few of the Syrians also dwelt there;
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 18.9.8

But Demetrius passed over [Euphrates], and came into Mesopotamia, as desirous to retain that country still, as well as Babylon; and when he should have obtained the dominion of the upper provinces, to lay a foundation for recovering his entire kingdom; for those Greeks and Macedonians who dwelt there frequently sent ambassadors to him, and promised, that if he would come to them, they would deliver themselves up to him, and assist him in fighting against Arsaces, (12) the king of the Parthians.
Antiquities of the Jews 13.5.11

THE Jews also obtained honors from the kings of Asia when they became their auxiliaries; for Seleucus Nicator made them citizens in those cities which he built in Asia, and in the lower Syria, and in the metropolis itself, Antioch; and gave them privileges equal to those of the Macedonians and Greeks, who were the inhabitants, insomuch that these privileges continue to this very day:
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 12.3.1

Perhaps it will be said, It is hard to endure slavery. Yes; but how much harder is this to the Greeks, who were esteemed the noblest of all people under the sun! These, though they inhabit in a large country, are in subjection to six bundles of Roman rods. It is the same case with the Macedonians, who have juster reason to claim their liberty than you have.
Flavius Josephus Wars 2.16.4

Diodorus Siculus
Ancient Greek Historian

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[3] The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

[4] Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, the Greek cities AND the Macedonians also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6.

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him by the Greeks, he left Sippas as general of Macedonia, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians. 19.13.1



OOOOPS did you say One? Thank god for copy and Paste. Imagine writing this each time a deluded Greek comes along?

[Agamoi Thytai]

Josephus (Jewish Historian)

Josephus, Flavius: "...The Greeks...wrote their histories from their own conjectures" (A.D. 37?-100?),

This Jew is not joking. And i am sure you agree




Lets see what this Jew has to say regarding Macedonians and Greeks,

Flavius Josephus: Clear distinction between Macedonans and "Greeks"

I totally agree,Jews and in particular this Jew are not joking:

And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him (23) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present; but the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YU4-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA237

Aphrahat,another Jew:
Because after that Alexander the Macedonian became king, the kingdom of the Greeks was founded, since Alexander also was one of them, even of the Greeks.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lE_TafAcVkUC&pg=PA358

But when Alexander the Greek came, he slew Darius, King of Media and Persia. For thus the angel said to Daniel, when he was explaining the vision to him

http://books.google.com/books?id=lE_TafAcVkUC&pg=PA354

[George S.]

The romans made a distinction of macedonians & greeks they created seperate provinces of them.If greece & macedonia were the same then why was there not just one province.
Macedonia for many milleums existed seperately as a country even long before the greeks came to greece.

[Bill77]

I totally agree,Jews and in particular this Jew are not joking:

You are the one originally making this ridiculous statement how can you agree with me?. I only mentioned it in reply as a tongue in cheek comment so you can eat your own words after reading what a jew (acording to you don't joke) has to say about greeks. I am not suggesting Jews are bullshit artists, but by you singling them out as "they don't joke" somehow implies non jew writers are Jokers. The only Joker here is you.

And when he had said this to Parmenio, and had given the high priest his right hand, the priests ran along by him, and he came into the city. And when he went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him (23) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended. And as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present; but the next day he called them to him, and bid them ask what favors they pleased of him.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YU4-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA237

Ah book of Daniel.
Do you know that the book of Daniel were full of prophecies allegedly coming from the prophet Daniel him self?

Well if you knew that, you are wrong. Greeks love to use the Book of Daniel passage's, but its flawed.

Porphyrius: Comments on the book of Daniel

These extracts come from a long polemic, "Against the Christians", which Porphyrius wrote in the late third century A.D. Not surprisingly, the whole work was banned when the Roman Empire became officially Christian, and all remaining copies were publicly burnt in 448 A.D.
Some passages about the historical basis of the book of Daniel have survived, because they were quoted in St.Jerome's commentary on Daniel. They are translated from Jacoby's text in FGrH_260.
The references in green are to St.Jerome's commentary.

A complete translation of Jerome's commentary on Daniel, made by Gleason L. Archer, can be found on the Tertullian website.

[35] [prologue] In his twelfth book Porphyrius wrote about the prophet Daniel. He said that the book of Daniel was written not by the man whom it is named after, but by someone who lived in Judaea at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes; and so instead of Daniel predicting the future, this writer describes what has already happened.

My point is, How was "Parmenio" (during the period of 356 BC) given this prophecy of Daniel

"one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians",

when the book was written in Judea during the period of Antiochus Epiphanes (175 BC)

By the way, in the book of Daniel, it says "King of Greece" not "A Greek-King" (he is Greek and happens to be a king) big difference.
Just like the Bavarian Otto was the "King Of Greece" we know for a fact that he was not a Greek who happens to be a King. Do you get the difference?
Alexander was King to many not just the Hellenes. But most importantly, he was a "Macedonian King"

Also keep in mind for future reference, when you read the word "Greeks" from the biblical times, It has a different meaning to today.

Aphrahat,another Jew:

Really? i thought Aphrahat was an Assyrian author of the fourth century from Persia. Who may have come from a pagan family but he then later takes a Christian name Jacob at his "baptism". Does not sound like a jew to me.

[Serdarot]

i tried to make it clear even for a modern "greek" that this suposed to be topic about the ethnic Macedonians in the Macedonian Age, accros the Macedonia Empire(s), and not another spam-topic with the same "greek" non-sence, but you want co continue - no problem, another small digression

Well,I think you're misunderstanding the text here.The phrase "the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of ANOTHER RACE" refers to the Greek colonists that were settled by Alexander in Bactria and Sogdiana among various Persian,Median and Afghan tribes.Thus by that phrase,that is "another race", Diodours means the later and not the Macedonians.

sure it means between the Native people of the mentioned regions. the "problem" is, the residents of those areas are WHITE race.

If you want to point out that these Greek colonists revolted against Macedonians and were massacrd by them,the Mytilinenas had a century before "revolted against the Hellenes" as they said themselves.Were they not Greek?

when i read that the greek revolted against macedonians, i read the greek revolted against macedonians. when greeks are massacred by macedonians, i read greeks massacred by macedonians.
if greeks revolted against greeks, should be writen that greeks revolted against greeks and were massacred by greeks.

And such massacres were very common in ancient Greek world.

showing that the real varvaroi were only shouting "varvaroi, varvaroi", like the tief is shouting loudest: tief, tief

or the mentioned example: Bush the terrorist, was shouting so loud "war on terror, war on terror". it is the same with the "greek"

the Macedonians showed their cruel side only in few accasions...

So what did actually the word γένος mean for ancient Greeks.Aristotle has the answer:

Aristotel the Macedonian? sure that "genos" was used in several occasions, and you can continue showing quotes where it was used to show diferent meaning, that still doesn´t mean, doesn´t prooves, that it wasn´t ment to proove diferent ethnicities, and diferent race.

not a good idea to bring up Diodorus Siculus',because he also wrote this:

and the Athenians were not ready to concede the leading position among the Greeks to Macedon

prooving what? that there were greeks in Macedon? WE KNOW that, and have no problem with that. We dont mind having minorities

Why did you write with caps the phrase "of ANOTHER RACE" ?What does it prove?The commander of the Greek mercenaries is talking to a Persian king here,so the phrase "as a foreigner born of another race" is addressed to a Persian,not to any Macedonian!

couse Shah-an-Shah Darius III Kodoman was also member of the white race?

Greeks = afro-asiatic settlers, mostly non-white, mixed with white

Makedoni = white natives

I don´t believe in racial supremacy, i am just painting it to you

Ancient Greeks = settlers = not native and not white
Ancient Makedoni = native + white

modern day Greeks = settlers = not natives mixed with some of the natives
modern day Makedoni = still native and still white

[Homer MakeDonski]

Serdarot

i tried to make it clear even for a modern "greek" that this suposed to be topic about the ethnic Macedonians in the Macedonian Age, accros the Macedonia Empire(s), and not another spam-topic with the same "greek" non-sence, but you want co continue - no problem, another small digression

are you up to say that our opponents will as usual, continue with theirs digressions ?
Who knows, might they reach theirs Dorian's origin version over ours folks at the ancient times?
Lets be a step in th front of them...
Were ancient times Macedonians a Doric tribe ?

Archeology

Cartledge says humorously perhaps with a note of whimsical frustration:
It has of late become an acknowledged scandal that the Dorians, archaeologically speaking, do not exist. That is, there is no cultural trait surviving in the material record for the two centuries or so after 1200 which can be regarded as a peculiarly Dorian hallmark. Robbed of their patents for Geometric pottery, cremation burial, iron-working and, the unkindest prick of all, the humble straight pin, the hapless Dorians stand naked before their creator - or, some would say, inventor...1

Archaeologically speaking we even will reach γένος at its primary meaning.
According to archaeologically finds we have stories as these ones:


The skeletal remains of these people stretched across mainland Greece, the islands, and extended as far as Illyria. the Balkans , Belgium, Switzerland. Denmark, and Anatolia.
Evidence of their survival into the Bronze Age civilization of Crete is evident:
Early Minoan I bones from a rock shelter at Hagios Nikolaos(24 women) (are) described as being of pygmy dimensions (Bushman). ...2
(pic. left:Early Minoan skull)
_____________
Ref:
1-Paul Cartledge ." Sparta and Lakonia: a regional history, 1300-362 BC". Routledge.2002 . pp... 68.
2- Ivan Van Sertima."African presence in early Europe", New Brunswick, NJ: The Journal of African Civilizations, 1985...page 56

Net sources:
Dorian invisibility

Pygmy (Bushman Greeks)

Thx Macedon

[Agamoi Thytai]

Plutarch, the ancient Greek historian from 1st century AD quoted Alexander’s words where the king himself separates the Macedonians from the Greeks as distinct nation: “When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts?” (Alex.51.2)



History of Alexander the Great by Quintus Curtius Rufus. According to the story told by Rufus when Philotas son of Parmenio was put on trial in front of the Macedonian army (large part of which were the Greeks), Alexander asked him, "Philotas, the Macedonians are going to judge you, state whether you will use your mother-tongue in front of them." Philotas answered that he will not, because not everyone will be able to understand him, which provoked Alexander to respond, that Philota hates his mother-tongue.148
The conclusion to this short story is that Philotas decided not to speak his native language (Macedonian) in front of the army because it was a different one from the common language of the entire army (Greek). Since the Macedonians and Greeks did not speak the same language, they can not be considered the same people.
Quintus Curtius Rufus, Alexander, VI. ix. 34-36




During the reign of Alexander the Great, the Macedonians spoke their own native language, as the native language language of Alexander the Great was not understood by the ancient Greeks (Quintus Curtius Rufus, VI, 9, 37 ).


Plutarch points out that Alexander spoke to his fellow countrymen in Macedonian: "he [Alexander] called out aloud to his guards in the Macedonian language, which was a certain sign of some great disturbance in him" (Plutarch, Alexander, 51).


Ernst Badian, (professor and chair person at Harvard History Department)
The usage of the Macedonian language, and thereby its existence, is confirmed by the following episode: ...after one symposium Alexander the Great felt that his life was threatened and he is said to have called for his guards in Macedonian. When his life was threatened he reverts to his more primitive psyche, "He used the only language in which his guards could be addressed".
[Note: The guards could be addressed in Macedonian only.]


Episode #2. Eumenes of Cardia. In 321 B.C., Greek commander Ambiance, with cavalry and light arms only, faced the Macedonian noble, Neoptholemus, with the Macedonian phalanx. To avoid battle Xennias, a man whose speech was Macedonian, was sent by Eumenes to negotiate with the commander of the phalanx. Badian analyzes:
"Now, Xennias' name at once shows him to be a Macedonian. Since he was in Ambiance's entourage he was presumably a Macedonian of superior status, who spoke both standard Greek and his native language. He was the man who could be trusted to transmit Ambiance's message. This clearly shows that the phalanx had to be addressed in Macedonian, if one wanted to be sure (as Ambiance certainly did) that they would understand. And almost equally interesting - he did not address them himself, as he and other commanders normally address soldiers who understood them, nor did he sent a Greek. The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that Greek was a difficult, indeed a foreign language to them. We may thus take it as certain that, when Alexander used Macedonian in addressing his guards, that too was because it was their normal language, and because (like Ambiance) he had to be sure he would be understood".
It is documented that Ambiance had experienced extreme difficulties in commanding the Macedonian soldiers. His disability was "not only his Greek birth, as has always being realized, but the simple fact that he could not directly communicate with the Macedonian soldiers". "His alien culture and provenance were not only obvious in an accent; it was a matter of a language".
["It was a matter of a language..."]
("Studies in the History of Art Vol 10: Macedonia and Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times".)

My Favourite:
The Greek orator Demosthenes, spoke of Alexander the Great’s father Philip II as "not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" (Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31).

Justin, the Roman historian from the 3rd century AD wrote: "Antipater was appointed governor of Macedonia and Greece" (Justin 13.4.5)

Arrian, the ancient Greek historian from the 2nd century AD wrote: "Darius' Greek mercenaries attacked the Macedonian phalanx… the Macedonian centre did not set to with equal impetus… and the Greeks attacked where they saw that the phalanx had been particularly torn apart. There the action was severe, the Greeks tried to push off the Macedonians into the river and to reserve victory to their own side… There was also some emulation between antagonists of the Greek and Macedonian races" (Arrian 2.10.4-7).

Pausanias, the ancient Greek historian from the 2nd century AD wrote: "the united Greeks defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia" (Pausanias 1.1.3)

Plutarch, the ancient Greek historian from 1st century AD quoted Alexander’s words where the king himself separates the Macedonians from the Greeks as distinct nation: “When you see the Greeks walking about among the Macedonians, do they not look to you like demi-gods among so many wild beasts?” (Alex.51.2)


Quintus Curtius Rufus:
Life of Alexander the Great
330*B.C.: Back in Greece, the Lacedemonians find the time ripe to rebel; their revolt is quelled. Le*repos du*guerrier: Alexander consolidates his hold on his new empire, but also spends a lot of his time drinking and feasting. He is visited by the Queen of the Amazons and an escort of*300 female warriors: she wants to beget a girl by him, offering him any boy that might be born; he demurs. Alexander requires his own Greeks and Macedonians to perform obeisance to him in the Persian style, by prostrating themselves (προσκυνησις): this leads to serious unrest among them. Several high-ranking officers of Alexander's plot to kill him, the plot is discovered thru a comic-opera squabble of two homosexual lovers, and the guilty parties commit suicide or are tortured and executed.
Book- VI


Here is an opinion of a more modern day German:

Translation of above,

The Macedonians should not be considered as Greeks; They were not considered the same by the ancients, who called them Barbarians; Macedo was an insulting epithet.

They differed from the Greeks in manners and they were far more barbaric, while the Greeks were cultivated.

The first time we see Macedonia excel Macedonia is during the time of Archelaus in the Socrates period. He had one yard, with placed Greek culture around a number of young people. In the country there was no education; that was achieved during the time of Philip.

Also, the Macedonians were distinct from the Greeks through language.

It wasn't a purely Greek dialect, ef. Strabo, 6, pag 326th Curtius lib. 9, cap. 9, 34 even suggest, that the Macedonians did not understand.

But this man knows nothing. This much is certain, the Macedonians were very different from the Greeks in the form of government, customs and language....



Flavius Josephus: Clear distinction between Macedonans and "Greeks"

Greeks and Macedonians that dwelt there" [Antiquities,13.5.11]

"…and gave them privileges equal to those of the Macedonians and Greeks, who were the inhabitants… [Antiquities, 12.3.1]

"…how much harder is to the Greeks, who were esteemed the noblest of all people under sun? These, although they inhabit a large country, are in subjection to six bundles of Roman rods. It is the same case with the Macedonians, who have juster reason to claim their liberty then you have." [Wars, 2.16.4]

"These Egyptians, therefore, were the authors of these troubles, who not having the constancy of Macedonians, nor the prudence of Greeks, indulged all of them the evil manners of the Egyptians" [Against Apion, 2.6.]

Josephus, Flavius: "...The Greeks...wrote their histories from their own conjectures"

How can it then be other than an absurd thing, for the Greeks to be so proud, and to vaunt themselves to be the only people that are acquainted with antiquity, and that have delivered the true accounts of those early times after an accurate manner? Nay, who is there that cannot easily gather from the Greek writers themselves, that they knew but little on any good foundation when they set to write, but rather wrote their histories from their own conjectures? Accordingly, they confute one another in their own books to purpose, and are not ashamed.
Josephus, Against Apion Book 1.3

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-1.htm

Babylonians attacked the Jews, which made those Jews so, vehemently to resent the injuries they received from the Babylonians, that being neither able to fight them, nor bearing to live with them, they went to Seleucia, the principal city of those parts, which was built by Seleucus Nicator. It was inhabited by many of the Macedonians, but by more of the Grecians; not a few of the Syrians also dwelt there;
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 18.9.8

But Demetrius passed over [Euphrates], and came into Mesopotamia, as desirous to retain that country still, as well as Babylon; and when he should have obtained the dominion of the upper provinces, to lay a foundation for recovering his entire kingdom; for those Greeks and Macedonians who dwelt there frequently sent ambassadors to him, and promised, that if he would come to them, they would deliver themselves up to him, and assist him in fighting against Arsaces, (12) the king of the Parthians.
Antiquities of the Jews 13.5.11

THE Jews also obtained honors from the kings of Asia when they became their auxiliaries; for Seleucus Nicator made them citizens in those cities which he built in Asia, and in the lower Syria, and in the metropolis itself, Antioch; and gave them privileges equal to those of the Macedonians and Greeks, who were the inhabitants, insomuch that these privileges continue to this very day:
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews 12.3.1

Perhaps it will be said, It is hard to endure slavery. Yes; but how much harder is this to the Greeks, who were esteemed the noblest of all people under the sun! These, though they inhabit in a large country, are in subjection to six bundles of Roman rods. It is the same case with the Macedonians, who have juster reason to claim their liberty than you have.
Flavius Josephus Wars 2.16.4

Diodorus Siculus
Ancient Greek Historian

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[3] The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

[4] Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, the Greek cities AND the Macedonians also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6.

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him by the Greeks, he left Sippas as general of Macedonia, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians. 19.13.1



OOOOPS did you say One? Thank god for copy and Paste. Imagine writing this each time a deluded Greek comes along?

OK,I'll try to give a brief answer to all this addressing to the most interesting points.None of the above quotes can be considered as an explicit proof that Macedonians were not Greeks.Because all this can be applied to many other Greek tribes too.To explain what I mean,those quotes that mention Macedonians separate from Greeks are no more proofs than other quotes that separate Athenians,Laconians,Thebans,Thessalians,Cretans e.t.c from Greeks and some times show them even fighting against the Greeks or enslaving them.Like these here:

just as afterwards when the Athenians attacked the Hellenes

http://books.google.com/books?id=VHr3Pe3gZEMC&pg=PA120&dq=just+as+afterwards+when+the+Athenians+attacked+the+Hellenes&hl=el&ei=wbYCTcbMNsuO4gbhitzcCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

And when the Athenians showed their anger at this undeserved humiliation, the Lacedaemonians, fearful lest Themistocles should be displeased at the outcome and should devise some great evil against them and the Greeks, honoured him with double the number of gifts awarded to those who had received the prize of valour.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D11%3Achapter%3D27%3Asection%3D3

After these men had entered office, the Lacedaemonians, who were hard put to it by their double war, that against the Greeks and that against the Persians, dispatched their admiral Antalcidas to Artaxerxes to treat for peace

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D14%3Achapter%3D110%3Asection%3D2

When the Eleians not only paid no heed to them but even accused them besides of enslaving the Greeks, they dispatched Pausanias, the other of their two kings, against them with four thousand soldiers
When the Eleians not only paid no heed to them but even accused them besides of enslaving the Greeks, they dispatched Pausanias, the other of their two kings, against them with four thousand soldiers

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D14%3Achapter%3D17

But making account that a tyrant city (Athens) set up in Greece is set up alike over all and reigneth over some already and the rest in intention, we shall bring it again into order by the war and not only live for the time to come out of danger ourselves but also deliver the already enthralled Grecians out of servitude.’ Thus said the Corinthians.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Thuc.+1.124.1&redirect=true

having come then to these, the envoys of the Thessalians said: "Hellenes, you must guard the pass by Olympos....Thus spoke the Thessalians; and the Hellenes upon this resolved to send to Thessaly by sea an army of men on foot to guard the pass

http://books.google.com/books?id=yIDC97iYraUC&pg=PA399&dq=having+come+then+to+these,+the+envoys+of+the+Thessalians+said:+%22Hellenes,+you+must+guard+the+pass+by+Olympos&hl=el&ei=jY8DTZfZD4yA4QaQqtynCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=having%20come%20then%20to%20these%2C%20the%20envoys%20of%20the%20Thessalians%20said%3A%20%22Hellenes%2C%20you%20must%20guard%20the%20pass%20by%20Olympos&f=false

When twenty days were gone by, and the violence of the Greeks
did not slacken, Timagenidas thus bespake his countrymen- "Ye men of Thebes, since the Greeks have so decreed, that they will never desist from the siege till either they take Thebes or we are delivered to them, we would not that the land of Boeotia should suffer any longer on our behalf

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Herodotus/Calliope/eng/302.html

As for the language of ancient Macedonians and the passages that mention Macedonians "speeking in Macedonian",nor these are explicit proofs that Macedonians spoke a distinct non-Greek language.There is used the adverb "μακεδονιστί" which can have two possible meanings,both of a dialect and a distinct language:

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&hl=el&q=a+rare+adverb+makedonisti+%28important+passages+in+*Plutarch%2C+Alex.+51+and+Eum.+14%29.+but+the+meaning+of+this+form+is+ambiguous.+The+adverb+cannot+tell+us+whether+Plutarch+had+in+mind+a+language+different+from+Gree&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD

Even the incident with Philotas' trial,where the later refuses to speek in Macedonian,instead of proving Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible it rather proves the opposite! Philotas actually said:"Besides the Macedonians, there are great numbers present, who I believe will understand me more readily, if I use the same language in which yourself spoke"

http://books.google.com/books?id=v3IIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA119

The key phrase is "will understand me MORE READILY",which means Macedonian didn't sound alien to Greek speakers but they could understood it even with difficulty,as the case with many other Greek dialects was.Like the case below from Pausanias' Decription of Greece,where the author mentions the low rate of mutual intelligibility between Doric and Aeolic:

Corinna, the only lyric poetess of Tanagra, has her tomb in a, conspicuous part of the city, and in the gymnasium is a painting of Corinna binding her head with a fillet for the victory she won over Pindar at Thebes with a lyric poem. I believe that her victory was partly due to the dialect she used, for she composed,NOT IN DORIC SPEECH LIKE PINDAR, BUT IN ONE AEOLIANS WOULD UNDERSTAND, and partly to her being, if one may judge from the likeness, the most beautiful woman of her time.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5d-WMrDvbNgC&pg=PA46