Aristotle, the Macedonian?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Delodephius
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 736

    #46
    I agree with you. I think human attitude can change no matter how old one is.
    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      #47
      some peole seem indifferent their world could be collapsing around them & they don't give a shit.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #48
        Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
        I think human attitude can change no matter how old one is.
        There is a very interesting Australian documentary series that is currently being aired, in which they have taken a group of self-confessed Anglo-Saxon racists and put them through the same hardships that refugees suffer on a daily basis. It is amazing how human attitudes can change if they walk just one mile in the shoes of the people they ignorantly denigrate.
        Originally posted by SirGeorge
        I always wonder why Macedonians don't bloat about their intellect Aristotle who contributed SO much to philosophy and the sciences.
        Here is a thread relating to Aristotle:

        Clearly, both Greeks and Macedonians claim the great teacher Aristotle as their own. Aristotle was from Macedonia but he is deemed to have been Greek by everyone. Was not Aristotle mixed, part Macedonian and part Hellenic? Does anyone have any supporting evidence? Was his father Macedonian or mother? It would make sense


        There is much about Macedonian history that Macedonians need to start learning and re-visiting. Another classic example is the legacy of Justinian the Great in Roman civilisation. The effect that this individual had (who was from an area in the vicinity of today's Macedonian capital) was profound and can still be detected in modern societies of today.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Ottoman
          Banned
          • Nov 2010
          • 203

          #49
          As a Turk I went to school to study the philosophy of Rumi and Nasreddin Hodja, both figures have a important status in Turkey as they were very important in the develeopment of Turkish culture.

          For more info: http://www.turkishculture.org/philosophers-21.htm

          Comment

          • The LION will ROAR
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 3231

            #50
            Latin passage in Latin I textbook. Great little story that introduces a young Alexander as a student. This passage in a textbook published by Glencoe.
            "Philipus, rex Macedoniae...pueri nostri sacri sunt..."


            Translated by C Benjamin Tracy
            Aristotle et Alexander, from Latin For Americans by Glenco Publishing/Distributor C Benjamin Tracy, translator.
            July 26, 2012

            Aristotle and Alexander

            Aristotle was a good teacher of many men. He taught philosophy and the
            Natural sciences.
            Because Aristotle was a famous and good teacher, Philip, King of
            Macedonia, approved of Aristotle.
            Philip Had a son, Alexander, a good and friendly boy. Philip entrusted the boy
            Alexander to the famous teacher, Aristotle:
            "Teach my son, Philosopher."
            Aristotle was always friendly to Alexander, and did not frighten Alexander.
            Aristotle taught Alexander about philosophy and Homer, a famous poet.
            Alexander loved and praised Homer, but philosophy was a long and hard discipline.
            Alexander had a new horse in the field. Alexander watched the field and the
            horse, and announced to Aristotle :
            "See the pleasing field, teacher. I do not like your house. Teach me in the
            field. I am a boy , not a man . I am a free boy, a son of Philip, not your captive. In the
            field I will entrust to memory/remember Homer and the glory of the great hero,
            Achilles.
            Aristotle prepares to teach Alexander in the field. But where is the boy,
            Alexander? Alexander is spurring the horse into the forest. He is free!
            The anger of Philip was great, but there was no anger in them philosopher.
            Aristotle announces to Philip:
            "The boy is not bad. Our boys are sacred; our girls are sacred. We ought to
            Have great reverence for our boys. Alexander is good and he will be great.
            And Alexander was great. He gained many lands. He always held in
            memory/remembered the fame of Achilles.
            The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              #53
              If aristotle was a macedonian why do the greeks say he is greek??
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #54
                So, was he or was he not a Macedonian? Here is a quick overview of his life based on the information in this thread and some further research. If any of the below is inaccurate, please feel free to correct it.

                Aristotle's father was Nicomachus, the personal physician to King Amyntas of Macedon, the father of Phillip II. Aristotle's mother was from Chalcis in Euboea. Both he and his father were born in the city of Stageira, said to have been founded by Ionian settlers from Andros at around 655 BC. Although Stageira was claimed to originally be a Hellenic colony in Macedonia (probably still part of Thrace proper at the time), after around 300 years of settlement the colonists had no doubt mixed with the local population of the area. Aristotle's ethnic background, therefore, may have been part Macedonian and part Hellenic.

                Aristotle was born in 384 BC and lived his life in Macedonia until moving to Athens when he was around 17 or 18 years old to further his education under the tutelage of Plato. Around 347 BC or 348 BC, following the death of Plato and fearing a growing anti-Macedonian sentiment resulting from the rising power of Macedonia under Phillip, Aristotle departed from Athens. However, he was unable to return to his native Stageira as it had been completely destroyed by the Macedonians during Phillip's drive to conquer the Hellenes and the regions where they held influence.

                Aristotle decided to relocate to Asia Minor and reside at the court of Hermias of Atarneus. He married Hermias' adopted daughter, Pythias, who bore him a daugther. Shortly afterward, Hermias died. It was around this time, 343 BC, that Aristotle was invited by Phillip to return to Macedonia. No doubt being aware of Aristotle's education and status, and the good service previously rendered by his father Nicomachus, Phillip employed him as an educator for the youth of the Macedonian nobility, in particular his son, Alexander. It is a telling fact that Phillip selected somebody with a Macedonian origin for this task. As a sign of gratitude and goodwill, Phillip later rebuilt Stageira and allowed its inhabitants to return.

                After the Macedonian victory over the Hellenes at Chaeronea, conditions became more favourable for Aristotle, and the year after Phillip was murdered, Aristotle returned to Athens and established his own school, no doubt with Macedonian support. It was during this time that he wrote some of his more popular works. While the Athenians preferred Isocrates' school over Plato's academy, the school established by Aristotle had aims that were distinct from both. Aristotle was now in Athens to serve Macedonian imperialism. The following year, 334 BC, Alexander left Macedonia for Persia. Pythias died while Aristotle was in Athens, after which he then took a woman from his native Stageira named Herpyllis, who bore him a son.

                As time went by, however, his relation with Alexander began to sour. Alexander had Callisthenes, the grand nephew of Aristotle, executed as a traitor in 328 BC. When Alexander himself met his death in 323 BC, anti-Macedonian sentiment resurfaced again, leading to Aristotle's departure from Athens - again. This time Aristotle fled to his mother's city, Chalcis, where he died a year later in 322 BC.

                Coming under the influence of Plato from an early age, Aristotle was schooled in a 'Hellenocentric' manner. He came to espouse some of the views of his Athenian contemporaries regarding the supposed superiority of Hellenes over 'barbarians', something which he would subsequently pass on to Alexander. However, the idea of what it meant to be a 'Hellene' by his time, especially in educated circles, was expressly stated by his rival Isocrates:

                Isocrates was an Attic orator who lived during the 4th century BC, and was a contemporary of Phillip II of Macedon and Demosthenes, another Attic orator. Demosthenes was vehemently opposed to Phillip and Macedonia, as he saw the true intention of the Macedonians and their desire to subjugate the Hellenic city-states and their

                And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood.
                During certain periods of the Macedonian kingdom, the use of the term in reference to people who were not Hellenes in an ethnic sense must be understood in this context. In addition to Isocrates, Aristotle also considered the native inhabitants of Macedonia as non-Hellenes in an ethnic sense.
                http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ection%3D1324b

                [1324b] [1] "...... and also among all the non-Hellenic nations that are strong enough to expand at the expense of others, military strength has been held in honor, for example, among the Scythians, Persians, Thracians and Celts. Indeed among some peoples there are even certain laws stimulating military valor; for instance at Carthage, we are told, warriors receive the decoration of armlets of the same number as the campaigns on which they have served; and at one time there was also a law in Macedonia that a man who had never killed an enemy must wear his halter instead of a belt. Among Scythian tribes at a certain festival a cup was carried round from which a man that had not killed an enemy was not allowed to drink. Among the Iberians, a warlike race, they fix small spits1 [20] in the earth round a man's grave corresponding in number to the enemies he has killed. So with other races there are many other practices of a similar kind, some established by law and others by custom...."

                Aristot. Pol. 7.1324b
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #55
                  Dfinitely aristotle was a macedonian .Both the the macedonians & even the greeks regarded aristotle as macedonian.The actual banning of aritotle by the greeks is proof of their anti macedonian centiment.The clear distinction existed in ancient times a pity modern writers don't pass on this clear statement of who the macedonians were just macedonians.
                  Last edited by George S.; 09-27-2012, 04:12 AM. Reason: ed
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #56
                    One reason why Greeks make a claim on Aristotle is the language in which he wrote. It is a weak reason and doesn't hold water. Aristotle was not the only Macedonian who contributed to European literature in the Greek language, there were also others like Polyaenus. Furthermore, there were Romans like emperor Marcus Aurelius who also wrote in Greek, at a time when the Roman Empire was powerful and had its own Latin literature. Nobody would be stupid enough to claim that Marcus Aurelius was Greek just because he received a Greek education and used Greek as a literary language, just like nobody from England would be stupid enough to claim non-English people who are known for their works in English literature like Robert Burns (Scottish), James Joyce (Irish), Joseph Conrad (Polish) and Vladimir Nabokov (Russian). The Irish actually sang songs in English that were anti-English, and till this day (see Celtic Thunder, for example) they sing songs in English which are presented as 'traditional Irish music'.

                    Another argument relies on some of the racist and illogical thoughts and views expressed by Aristotle and espoused during several years under the tutelage of educated Greeks in Athens, such as "........as the poets say, 'It is proper that Hellenes should rule non-Hellenes', the implication being that non-Hellene and slave are by nature identical", and "non-Hellenes are by natural character more slavish than Hellenes (and the Asiatics than the Europeans) that they tolerate master-like rule without resentment". But again, it is important to put these comments into context and understand the admiration for a percieved ideal of a 'higher culture' that Aristotle acquired during his years in Athens.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • makedonche
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 3242

                      #57
                      SOM
                      Great piece, interesting reading! Although.........
                      Nobody would be stupid enough to claim that Marcus Aurelius was Greek just because he received a Greek education and used Greek as a literary language,
                      ....I reckon I could find you more than a few southern platesmashers who would be this stupid!
                      On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #58
                        Makedonche well said but it's a fact that to make up their fake greek state with so called pure greeks.The only qualities needed to be a greek is to speak greek.(as well as act like one).Plenty did just that.The fact remains over time with their hellenisation scheme people suddenly become greeks because its all supposed to be greek to them.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Epirot
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 399

                          #59
                          Indeed, Aristotle unequivocally ranked Macedonians along Scythians, Persians, Thracians and Celts, i.e non Greeks. At least at this passage, he certainly is not making any social distinction. I am just appalled with the attempts of some feeble-minded Greeks who are trying by every mean to belittle the very fact that Aristotle thought Macedonians as non-Greeks. As always they are trying to find out mistakes during the translation in English of ancient accounts. They give a lot of emphasis to the fact that Aristotle did not specifically mention any 'non-Hellenic nation' as the translator did. Judging from the whole context, it is clear that Aristotle was referring to non-Greek peoples who were able to expand at the expense of others ( τοῖς ἔθνεσι πᾶσι τοῖς δυναμένοις πλεονεκτεῖν ἡ τοιαύτη τετίμηται δύναμις,).


                          If Sons, Then Heirs: A Study of Kinship and Ethnicity in the Letters of Paul, By Caroline Johnson Hodge

                          To sum it up, the translation is correct. The attempts of some feeble-minded Greeks to twist the meaning falls short of convincing. It is really hilarious to see how Greek pseudo-historians did endless efforts to diminish the value of certain passages from antiquity authors on the basis of "wrong translations" made by Europeans. Apostolos Dascalakis is a case in point. He devoted many articles to the quotes of Isocrates and Quintus Curtius Rufus by making desperate attempts to neglect the essence of their writings in regard with the question of ancient Macedonians. Poor Greeks...they seem to neglect deliberately the very fact that we owe the preservation of ancient texts to those Europeans (or 'Franks' as they pejoratively call ). Suffice is to say that during Renaissance or even early, in Europe were printed first translations of ancient Greek writers. It's very telling that many Greek nationalists after 1850 commenced to translate for the first time the accounts of ancient Greek authors.
                          Last edited by Epirot; 10-02-2012, 03:39 PM.
                          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            #60
                            agreed but there is ample evidence that aristotle was banished from athens for his non greekness.The macedonian language was a babble to greeks as they couldn't understand it.
                            Also if the greeks & the macedonians were the same people why was greece waging so many anti macedonian wars.Also The romans made a distinction You had the macedonian province & the greek province named seperately.
                            Last edited by George S.; 10-02-2012, 04:11 PM. Reason: ed
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X