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Old 08-03-2018, 10:04 PM   #11
Risto the Great
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I think an agreement about being friends is on a whole other level than the Prespa treachery. The agreement with Bulgaria is bullshit but can be abandoned instantly. Ivanov is the only person worth some clout being vocal about opposing the Prespa agreement and he happens to be the President of the country. The support for this should not be anything less than unequivocal.
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Old 08-04-2018, 05:54 AM   #12
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Risto,

Thatís true Ė the Prespa Agreement calls for constitutional changes and states that it canít be reversed while the Friendship Treaty can be cancelled. But the reality is that the consequences of backing out of both are essentially the same: if Macedonia backs out of Prespa Agreement in the future, Greece will block its EU integration; if Macedonia backs out of the Friendship Treaty, Bulgaria will block Macedoniaís EU integration. Ivanov wants the EU, so he claims, thus backing out of the Friendship Treaty isnít easy, politically speaking. I also wonder what happens to our "dedication" to the Friendship Treaty if the Prespa Agreement is not passed? By default, we'd be blocked from the EU and thus there'd be no purpose to the Friendship Treaty: so would we continue implementing its provisions or not?

Bulgariaís President actually recognized the weakness in the Friendship Treaty compared to the Prespa Agreement and will seek additional guarantees from Macedonia:

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"There is a wording in the treaty with Greece that it will not be targeted at third parties, which is too general. If we compare the two treaties, we will see that the treaty with Greece excludes corrections and cancellations, and the treaty with Bulgaria allows for termination. That puts Bulgaria in a position to seek additional guarantees," Radev said.

"We must categorically exclude any intervention and support for Macedonia for organizations on our territory that have a character against our constitution. I expect the Bulgarian government and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to enter these contractual commitments in Chapter 35 of the future contractual framework of Macedonia's EU membership negotiations, " Radev said, adding that this meant clear procedures for monitoring and observing the fulfillment of the conditions.
https://www.balkaneu.com/bulgarian-p...from-dialogue/

By supporting this Treaty, though, Ivanov has also put Macedonia in a vulnerable position. He keeps on saying, ďWe want to be in the EU but not at the expense of our identity and sovereignty.Ē What about the Friendship Treaty and the additional guarantees being sought related to it? These following provisions of the Friendship Treaty are worrying, if executed, and some are similar to certain parts of the Prespa Agreement, and I can only wonder how Ivanov could support them in the Friendship Treaty and not in the Prespa Agreement?

Quote:
Article 8
Ö
2. Within a maximum of three months from the date of entry into force of this Agreement, in order to deepen mutual trust, the two Contracting Parties shall establish a Multidisciplinary Comprehensive Commission of Historical and Educational Issues on a parity basis in order to contribute objectively and authentic and evidence-based historical sources, a scientific interpretation of historical events. The Commission shall submit a one-year report on its work to the governments of the Contracting Parties.

3. The two Contracting Parties shall jointly organize joint commemorations of common historical events and personalities, aimed at strengthening good-neighborly relations in the spirit of European values.

Article 11
Ö
5. The Republic of Macedonia confirms that nothing in its Constitution can and should not be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute grounds for interference in the internal affairs of the Republic of Bulgaria in order to protect the status and rights of persons who are not nationals of the Republic Macedonia.
Particularly, why does Article 11 not call for the same of Bulgaria? And why does he support an agreement with Bulgaria that does not call for recognition of the Macedonian identity and language, when that's been a red line for Macedonia nearly two decades now? Was it a political miscalculation? Naivety?

Does he legitimately believe that FTís provisions are not as dangerous as the PA? Is it strictly a political move? Was he being naÔve? Does he have a soft spot for Bulgaria compared to Greece?

Iím trying to work out Ivanovís reasoning and mindset, and a justification for his different approaches to the two agreements.

Once (if) the Prespa Agreement is defeated, and if Ivanov is still around as president, he must be pushed on this because it could come along with a gradual Bulgarianization of our history / identity. I think I'll concede on this for now and follow Gocka's mentality:

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We need the dumb oaf. As it stands he is maybe the only person in Macedonia with enough name recognition that could challenge the Zaev position. Me or you can go and make a speech, but who will listen? He has the clout to stir up a legitimate opposition among the people. Do I want to support him? Absolutely not, I am not that naive. Do I think he can be a useful idiot? Yes I do.
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:36 AM   #13
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I think it’s a given that the Bulgarianisation and cantonisation will take place once the Prespa agreement ultimately gets implemented as we are required to abandon our Macedonian roots. What we are saying with this document is that we have no links to the Macedonians, and that we are a new nation made up of Slavs, our name and monuments are to be altered, our constitution, our highways, car plates, airports and the school curriculum to reflect our non Macedonian roots. We even have to accept the ultimate humiliation by denying the human tragedy and ethnic cleansing endured by our people in modern day Greece, these are very tangible physical and psychological changes, a heavy price.

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Old 08-04-2018, 08:21 AM   #14
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I think itís a given that the Bulgarianisation and cantonisation will take place once the Prespa agreement ultimately gets implemented as we are required to abandon our Macedonian roots. What we are saying with this document is that we have no links to the Macedonians, and that we are a new nation made up of Slavs, our name and monuments are to be altered, our constitution, our highways, car plates, airports and the school curriculum to reflect our non Macedonian roots. We even have to accept the ultimate humiliation by denying the human tragedy and ethnic cleansing endured by our people in modern day Greece, these are very tangible physical and psychological changes, a heavy price.
That's true.
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Old 08-04-2018, 09:49 AM   #15
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Looks like the witch hunt is well under way to get even with all those who "damaged Macedonia's reputation" by booing and verbally abusing government officials at Mechkin Kamen the other day. People are being rounded up from towns right across Macedonia. Even an off-duty ARM soldier that was among those doing the booing was marched into military police headquarters for a 'chat'. Let that be a lesson to anyone that dares embarrass this government in front of their foreign overlords. Yes, foreign dignitaries also attended the Ilinden celebrations the other day and it must have been humiliating for all concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwockagVgnY
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Old 08-04-2018, 05:21 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Karposh View Post
Looks like the witch hunt is well under way to get even with all those who "damaged Macedonia's reputation" by booing and verbally abusing government officials at Mechkin Kamen the other day. People are being rounded up from towns right across Macedonia. Even an off-duty ARM soldier that was among those doing the booing was marched into military police headquarters for a 'chat'. Let that be a lesson to anyone that dares embarrass this government in front of their foreign overlords. Yes, foreign dignitaries also attended the Ilinden celebrations the other day and it must have been humiliating for all concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwockagVgnY
They need to be pelting all SDS officials with colour filled condoms at every public opportunity, particularly Zajko, after all, that type of behaviour is all good and should be permitted in their book
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Old 08-04-2018, 06:02 PM   #17
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They need to be pelting all SDS officials with colour filled condoms at every public opportunity, particularly Zajko, after all, that type of behaviour is all good and should be permitted in their book
They should just find the condoms the Greeks used on SDSm in the backrooms. Though it wouldn't be paint inside.
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:09 PM   #18
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They should just find the condoms the Greeks used on SDSm in the backrooms. Though it wouldn't be paint inside.
I'm pretty sure you've mentioned somewhere that your day job is an accountant or something like that Risto but have you ever considered giving stand-up comedy a crack any time soon...I'd even pay to see that. And I'm not even joking.
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Old 08-04-2018, 08:23 PM   #19
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Karposh, Thank you. I am the only (sometimes) funny accountant in the world. It is an unfair advantage that I milk to the fullest!
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