Monuments and Statues in the Macedonian Republic

[Risto the Great]

Governments will come and go. The statues and the fact they represent Macedonian identity will always be there long after Milisovski. So we should be excited and promote these statues.

Bill, you are right.
But to have your own government demeaning their significance is a sorry sign for the future of Macedonia. It could also be said Macedonians will always exist even if the government changes Macedonia's name. The arguments are not dissimilar. The reality is that they now represent a crushing blow to Macedonia's sovereignty. Changing the sonce on the statues is the same as changing the flag. Then calling the statues artisitic impressions and choosing not to OWN these symbols means precisely that Macedonians do not deserve these symbols according to DPMNE.

Symbols that look like one thing but (NOW) mean another.

[Prolet]

Exactly Bill

I dont ever recall Miloshoski supporting these statues all he is concerned about is our foreign affairs, i've never liked him myself since he has strong Bugarofil ideologies. People choose governments, no government is stronger then the people and i think these statues are fantastic and they makes me very proud.

Bill77, Word has it that Dosta Dimovska suffered a heavy stroke, hopefully now somebody can replace her at the Macedonia Culture Center in Sofia, a proper Macedonian not a Bugarofil.

[indigen]

RTG,

The true meaning of these statues is one thing and what the nut case Milosovski thinks of them is another. By having any negative feelings towards these statues simply for the fact that VMRO party believe they are only an "artistic expression" you are in a way, (unintentionally) giving credence to their claim.

Governments will come and go. The statues and the fact they represent Macedonian identity will always be there long after Milisovski. So we should be excited and promote these statues.

Macedonia does not exist as Macedonia in international fora (organisations) and is currently giving HIGHER ICJ validation status to what was validated by an ILLEGAL TREASONOUS ACT - Interim Accord - in 1995 (and 1993) by an illegitimate (fraudulently "elected") GLIGOROV-CRVENKOVSKI and SHIPTAR REGIME and that entails NO CONNECTION TO OUR ANCIENT HERITAGE and is SYMBOLISED BY RENOUNCING OUR ORIGINAL NATIONAL FLAG (with 16-ray Macedonian Sun symbol) and the flying of the VENTILATOR (with absolutely no historical significance at all for Macedonians, excepting that Bozhin Pavlovski in 1995 claimed that it was Red Army replica flag - which would be quite fitting for the political heritage of SDS - and had all the info published in Today Denes!) in its place.

If we are to talk about things coming and going in the last twenty years, it would appear that 2 parties (on the Macedonian side) have remained the same and our national markers - FLAG, NAME, NATIONAL STATE and HERITAGE (ancient is sold but there is more for sale!), LAND, and more to come - have GONE and UNLIKELY TO EVER RETURN with the current mindset of the majority of Macedonians!

RTG is right on the mark!

[indigen]

Bill, you are right.
But to have your own government demeaning their significance is a sorry sign for the future of Macedonia. It could also be said Macedonians will always exist even if the government changes Macedonia's name. The arguments are not dissimilar. The reality is that they now represent a crushing blow to Macedonia's sovereignty. Changing the sonce on the statues is the same as changing the flag. Then calling the statues artisitic impressions and choosing not to OWN these symbols means precisely that Macedonians do not deserve these symbols according to DPMNE.

Symbols that look like one thing but (NOW) mean another.

We saw some symbols in Bitola recently that look (and are) "MUTILATED" and, should they remain there permanently, will eternally scar the minds of Macedonians!

As for these statutes, of "Aleksandar Veliki" and Filip II, they may never go up or go up and be traded in for some further symbolic international HUMILIATION of Macedonians, much like the 16-rayed Macedonian Sun Flag was adopted by SDS in August 1992 and then offered as a trade in November 1992 (i.e. it was adopted in order to be traded (za da se trampa) for UN admission).

Btw, in RM they avoid (or are not allowed) to call any object Filip II or Aleksandar III Makedonski but the Bulgarians have had a big statute of Filip II Makedosnki in PLOVDIV for a few years now!


Image of Filip II Makedonski Statute (Plovdiv)

[Mastika]

The statues will only be "artistic expression" in Macedonia. They will mean nothing in terms of celebration of the Macedonian identity. This is the governmental stance. How can anyone be excited by that? Why not put some brave Greek/Serbian/Bulgarian freedom fighter up as a statue as well. They would be from the region too and "artistic" too no doubt.

To me the statue's have one form of significance, to you they may have another. As Bill says, the statues will be there long after Milosevski and his interpretation of them disapear.

I can assure you that the Greeks (unlike the aforementioned Macedonian politician) will interpret the erecting of the statue's as a nationalistic sign. It is a statement about Macedonia's heritage. Why shouldn't we Macedonians also view it as a symbol for Macedonian nationalism??

But to have your own government demeaning their significance is a sorry sign for the future of Macedonia.

I agree 100% with the above statement. Ironically it will be the Greeks who are more likely to publicise the fact that an Alexander the Great statue is being erected (only to ridicule/attack the macedonian government, similarly to the Airport renaming saga, for political gain), rather than the Macedonian government itself, which as you correctly state "demean their significance". Nonetheless, they will still make the biggest fuss over the statue (which is quite sad really). The government should be the biggest promoter of such a statue, not our enemies.

Btw, in RM they avoid (or are not allowed) to call any object Filip II or Aleksandar III Makedonski

Is that really the case?

[Bill77]

Bill, you are right.
But to have your own government demeaning their significance is a sorry sign for the future of Macedonia. It could also be said Macedonians will always exist even if the government changes Macedonia's name. The arguments are not dissimilar.

Good point

The reality is that they now represent a crushing blow to Macedonia's sovereignty. Changing the sonce on the statues is the same as changing the flag. Then calling the statues artisitic impressions and choosing not to OWN these symbols means precisely that Macedonians do not deserve these symbols according to DPMNE.

On a personal level, this was the incident that knocked me off the fence to fall on the side of the wise.

[Bill77]

If we are to talk about things coming and going in the last twenty years, it would appear that 2 parties (on the Macedonian side) have remained the same and our national markers - FLAG, NAME, NATIONAL STATE and HERITAGE (ancient is sold but there is more for sale!), LAND, and more to come - have GONE and UNLIKELY TO EVER RETURN with the current mindset of the majority of Macedonians!

If we are to talk about things coming and going as far as history books can take us, we had many empires could not completely annihilate our race. We just keep on arising just like the Phoenix. So what Has VMRO and SDSM have, that the Romans or Ottomans did not.


To get back on track, You would be surprised how many Macedonians in the republic would say after hearing about Alexander "abe grk e"

So such statues are very important to wake these type of morons up. (minus Milososki's opinions).

[indigen]

If we are to talk about things coming and going as far as history books can take us, we had many empires could not completely annihilate our race. We just keep on arising just like the Phoenix. So what Has VMRO and SDSM have, that the Romans or Ottomans did not.

Well, all the rest were enemies and if someone took something away it could be considered as stolen or enforced but our current demise in the MODERN NATIONAL ERA is very different because the concessions are done by "our" side (hence the IC making sure "our" "legal representatives" signed away the TITLE DEEDS TO MACEDONIA in 2001!). IMO, the consequences arising from SIGNING AWAY THE SOLE TITLE DEED to Macedonia seems to escape many Macedonians, including you, but that 2001 signing and parliament amending the Constitution to reflect the UCK wish-list NOW MEANS MACEDONIA IS LEGALLY CO-OWNED BY the Macedonians (or whatever name will be applied in near future) and the "Albanians" (GHEGS)!

Secondly, modern nations have many varied and powerful sate institutions and machinery at their disposal to effectively change the identity of weakly established (and almost downrightly prohibited at an international level) national identities as the Macedonian is and the genocidal policies carried out today by neighbouring states in the occupied territories or the internal one by the Ghegs is more proficient and comprehensive than anything the Romans or Ottomans did or had the capacity to do.

To get back on track, You would be surprised how many Macedonians in the republic would say after hearing about Alexander "abe grk e"

Many will probably still say that if the education system remains the same and has to adhere to the Iterim Accord agreement!

So such statues are very important to wake these type of morons up. (minus Milososki's opinions).

It is NOT simply Miloshoski's personal opinion but that of the RAMKOVIST STATE and all its institutions and Gruevski has stated exactly the same (look in the "Gruevski" topic thread on MTO for direct quote excerpts which I posted recently!).

Lastly, these statutes may never go up and this post by Proletercheto appears to me as simple political advocacy (propaganda activity) to shore up the dpmne party. The "Filip II" (Macedonian or Spanish, which FIlip II?) statute has been ready and sitting in Bitola storage for more than a year now! Why has it not been put up yet or why it was not put up when ready?

[indigen]

Btw, in RM they avoid (or are not allowed) to call any object Filip II [Makedonski] or Aleksandar III Makedonski

Is that really the case?

I have slightly amended my original statement in order to avoid any confusion and that should be the case now! Filip Vtori (II) ARENA is what that stadium is called officially, as far as I am aware.

Secondly, Mastika, you being a "Slavoman" (and Serbophile - Ceca lover, for one!), how is it that you take the defence advocate role for Prolet (an obvious party activist for dpmne) in this topic? I would have thought you would be denigrating it as "antikvizacija", as do most of the Salvomani. What kind of "Slavoman" are you anyway?

[Mastika]

Secondly, Mastika, you being a "Slavoman" (and Serbophile - Ceca lover, for one!), how is it that you take the defence advocate role for Proltercheto (an obvious party activist for the dupenite) in this topic? I would have thought you would be denigrating it as "antikvizacija", as do most of the Salvomani. What kind of "Slavoman" are you anyway?

Have no more points of argument so resorting to insults and taunting? Nothing out of the ordinary for you. I am not a "slavoman" as you taunt, but rather Macedonian as are you. The difference is that I am not a scare-mongeror shouting "VASSAL ENEMY PROPAGANDA RAMKOVIST PREDAVNIK etc. etc." at every article/point which I don't happen to agree with. I am backing up prolet as his post was a valid point for discussion, and as others have pointed out to you this week we cannot only post things that we agree with and pretend like other things do not exist.

[indigen]

FILIP VTORI SE USHTE NE "DOJAVA" VO BITOLA

Spomenikot kje se postavi, no vo nekoj drug biten moment

Spomenikot na antichkiot imperator Filip Vtori i natamu stoi vo dvorot na bitolskata opshtina i nikako da bide postaven na ploshtadot "Magnolija" vo centarot na gradot, kako shto pred 3 godini najavi lokalnata vlast.

Bitolskiot gradonachalnik, Vladimir Taleski na pochetokot naogjashe opravduvanja vo stilot deka imaat problem so fontanata, no sega ni toj nema odgovor koga spomenikot kje bide montiran. Vo momentov postamentot sluzhi za objava na oglasi, a fontanata vo forma na negoviot shtit, sega e atrakcija, kako i drugi antichki simboli. Na prashanjeto dali e promashena investicijata od stotici iljadi evra za izgradba na ovaa fontana so antichkiot imperator, gradonachalnikot Taleski so objasnuvanje:
- Kako shto nekoi od sovetnicite celo vreme ni pravea opozicija za ostanatite proekti, a koga gi vidoa rezultatite nemaat kako da se povlechat i da sfatat deka ona shto go pravevme so realizacijata na programata e navistina, taka i za dobroto na gragjanite, isto taka i Grcite sfatija deka pogubna e nivnata politika kon Makedonija. Megjutoa i tie nemaat kako da se povlechat. E, sega ima i poedinci koi od Filip Vtori napravija politichka tema. Duri i vo period koga trebashe da se dostavat odredeni izveshtai za Makedonija go nametnaa kako problem od najvisok rang za drzhavata. Tuka ne procenija deka postavuvanjeto na Filip Vtori kje bide prechka za pregovorite so Grcija. Prashanjeto veshtachki se ispolitizira, a nie za da ne pravime prechki i da ne dodavame teatarski kazhano shlagvord za manipulacija se odluchivme do sledniot biten moment, kje go postavime spomenikot - veli Taleski.
No, del bitolchani smetaat deka ovoj chekor na lokalnata vlast e mnogu izbrzan i deka sredstvata mozhea da se investiraat vo mnogu drugi ekonomski proekti, koi kje ja namalat nevrabotenosta vo gradot. (Slobodna Evropa)

http://www.australianmacedonianweekly.com/edition/1153_07122010/026_pelagoniska.html

Its official, the Vassals (Ramkovist Government) in MK are "waiting for a more opportune time" (that may never come!?) before Filip II or Aleksandar III Makedonski statutes see the light of day in their rightful and designated places!

Niko, Thats not true and you know it there are soncina all over Bitola in the city square isnt that a provocation towards Greece? These photos below would be a much bigger provocation for them so your comments dont stick.

Bitola hardly relies on Greece for its economy, its not like thousands of people go and spend millions there. A few hundred rock up to get a hair cut,shave,grocery shopping,fill up petrol etc etc

I can tell you first hand that the Greeks are not good tourists when it comes to spending, i remember when we went to Ohrid we stayed at a hotel and the workers there were telling us how the Greek Tourists stuffed their bags with the food from the mess hall, they even took the boiled eggs. When we were in Monte Negro (Old City of Bar) the people there couldnt believe that the Greeks rocked up with 3 buses and refused to pay a 1 euro entry fee to see the old city, they said it was too expensive for them so they turned their buses around and left.

These "soncina" must have another 8 invisible rays that only dedicated DPMNE lovers can see Prolet. I can't see 'em.

A couple of posts taken from the "Gruevski" thread that can (or should) shed some more light on this topic.

[Niko777]

New Philip II of Macedon Statue in...

.....Athens!

[Voltron]

Where in Athens is it ?

[Voltron]

Anyway, we should all stop playing dungeons and dragons and really start focusing on what is happening today. This statue business is really starting to get old fast.

[Niko777]

Where in Athens is it ?

Papagou neighborhood