De Origine Successibusque Slavorum 1532

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Delodephius
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 736

    #16
    Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
    Tomas, it is better then nothing
    It is a cleaned up version, I would like to see the original text, there are only bits and pieces of it on the internet, do you have any ability to find this book and the other in a library in Serbia?
    I can buy the printed version of the PDF you posted and almost did once but luckily I bought the life of Buddha instead. I can read the book on my laptop now.
    As for the translation of the whole book, no, I couldn't find it anywhere, except maybe there are some older versions in Croatia I heard someone talk about once. I'll do try and one day find one. As for the original, I'm sure that some universities have copies of it no doubt.

    TM, there is a very old Russian book in the town library's archive here that I had the pleasure of reading while I worked there for a brief period. It was from the early 18th century. I think there was a part about Macedonia there and about the origin of the Slavs, but I can't remember now. Maybe I could ask my former co-workers if I could transcribe some parts of the book, at least I could while worked there. The book was interesting to me because there the world history is categorized and explained in a very different way we know it today. For example the Roman Empire never fell (in the time of the author) because it was continued through the Frankish kingdom of Charlemagne and then the Holy Roman Empire and the Hapsburgs. The Ottomans are simply referred to as the Eastern Empire. The terminology used is very different than from what we are used today. Plus the whole book is written in a form of Q&A.

    There are also some old books there, one which caught my eye was a textbook from the late 18th century written in Latin. It is a grammar of four languages: German, Greek (or Latin, don't remember exactly), Hungarian and Illyrian. Hm! I could read that Illyrian, yet I'm pretty sure I don't know Albanian. Oh, I wonder what it could be.
    Last edited by Delodephius; 04-10-2009, 02:47 PM.
    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

    Comment

    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      #17
      TM, could you give more info on that Russian book?
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3810

        #18
        Unfortunately no Tomas I don't have anything more on it. If someone living in Russia who reads this forum could help that would be greatly appreciated.
        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

        Comment

        • Philosopher
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1003

          #19
          TM,

          You have become the Slayer of the Greek Myth. Well done. I wonder why scholars and university professors failed to find these findings, even Borza.

          It is amazing what ordinary, educated, citizens can find when they search history. So here we have yet another source, in the 1500s, that speaks of a Macedonian slavic people, descendants of the ancient Slavic Macedoninas.

          Bravo!!!

          Comment

          • TrueMacedonian
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 3810

            #20
            Thanks Philosopher. It's not just Pribojevic and Orbini it's also Hanibal Lucic, Dinko Ranjin, Dominiko Zlataric, and Ivan Gundulic who, according to John Fine, wrote the same things about the ancient Macedonians. I would love to get my hands on some of their texts.
            Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

            Comment

            • Sovius
              Member
              • Apr 2009
              • 241

              #21
              Slovena and slavena are state of being nouns based on the conditional adjective sloveni. These terms evolved beyond their literal meaning to represent what in English would be correctly translated as "kindred tribes", "kindred peoples" or simply "kindred", using linguistic similarity as the basis for the ideas inherent in these words during the period in time in which these works were written. Slavorum and Slavi are proper nouns based on an earlier ethnic slur for Thracian populations, Sklavene, a name thought to be based on sloveni, and do not carry the original meaning of the Illyrian words. As a Dominican, Pribojević must have been well versed in Latin. As an Illyrian, he would've formed his thoughts in this indigenous language. In my opinion, Fine's work weaves some interesting insights into the mistranslations he's presenting, but, as he fails to comprehend what was regarded as common knowledge during those times, he's not really communicating anything truly meaningful to the study of history, only that these historical texts would clearly be of more value to Western scholars if they were, in fact, correctly translated.


              Podrijetlo i slava Slavena
              On the Origin and Glory of the Kindred Tribes

              Kraljevstvo slovena
              Kingdom of the Kindred Tribes

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #22
                Welcome Sovius.
                What do you base the "ethnic slur" in relation to the Thracians on?

                pozdrav
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Sovius View Post
                  Slovena and slavena are state of being nouns based on the conditional adjective sloveni. These terms evolved beyond their literal meaning to represent what in English would be correctly translated as "kindred tribes", "kindred peoples" or simply "kindred", using linguistic similarity as the basis for the ideas inherent in these words during the period in time in which these works were written. Slavorum and Slavi are proper nouns based on an earlier ethnic slur for Thracian populations, Sklavene, a name thought to be based on sloveni, and do not carry the original meaning of the Illyrian words. As a Dominican, Pribojević must have been well versed in Latin. As an Illyrian, he would've formed his thoughts in this indigenous language. In my opinion, Fine's work weaves some interesting insights into the mistranslations he's presenting, but, as he fails to comprehend what was regarded as common knowledge during those times, he's not really communicating anything truly meaningful to the study of history, only that these historical texts would clearly be of more value to Western scholars if they were, in fact, correctly translated.


                  Podrijetlo i slava Slavena
                  On the Origin and Glory of the Kindred Tribes

                  Kraljevstvo slovena
                  Kingdom of the Kindred Tribes
                  Welcome Sovius! A very good insight into how the word "Slav" is/was used.
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • Bratot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2855

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Sovius View Post
                    Slovena and slavena are state of being nouns based on the conditional adjective sloveni. These terms evolved beyond their literal meaning to represent what in English would be correctly translated as "kindred tribes", "kindred peoples" or simply "kindred", using linguistic similarity as the basis for the ideas inherent in these words during the period in time in which these works were written. Slavorum and Slavi are proper nouns based on an earlier ethnic slur for Thracian populations, Sklavene, a name thought to be based on sloveni, and do not carry the original meaning of the Illyrian words. As a Dominican, Pribojević must have been well versed in Latin. As an Illyrian, he would've formed his thoughts in this indigenous language. In my opinion, Fine's work weaves some interesting insights into the mistranslations he's presenting, but, as he fails to comprehend what was regarded as common knowledge during those times, he's not really communicating anything truly meaningful to the study of history, only that these historical texts would clearly be of more value to Western scholars if they were, in fact, correctly translated.


                    Podrijetlo i slava Slavena
                    On the Origin and Glory of the Kindred Tribes

                    Kraljevstvo slovena
                    Kingdom of the Kindred Tribes

                    Could you provide some sources that also support your explanation?
                    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                    Comment

                    • Sovius
                      Member
                      • Apr 2009
                      • 241

                      #25
                      Thanks, and thank you for providing a medium in the English language for these important topics, whether they be purely academic or directed towards the preservation of Macedonian culture.

                      The documented use of Sklavene as an ethnic slur:

                      “As for the Getae, that is to say the herds of Sclavenes, they were fiercely ravaging the regions of Thrace.”

                      Simocatta was equating the Getae, an indigenous Thracian population, to animals. He made it a point to remind the potentially uninformed reader that Sclavene was another name Roman loyalists were referring to Gothic insurgents as. By the time Simocatta wrote these words, this term, having been used by Procopius during the previous century, an apellation that replaced Sporoi, a Koine slang word for refugees, must have come into use for other populations, because he felt it important to remind his Roman readers which specific group of Sklavenes were ravaging Roman strongholds in Thrace. Herodotus, who also made mention of the Getae, but was polite enough not to equate the Getae to animals, never referred to them as Sklavenes or as Sklabenoi, neither did any subsequent Achaean historians. The fact that the Getae were around during Herodotus' time and were not referred to as Sklavenes, but rather, came to be referred to as Sklavenes during the 6th Century AD, provides a sequential proof that researchers back in the 19th Century either missed or made a point of avoiding. Getae has historical value as an ethnic term in the English language, while Sklavene has historical value as an ethnic slur for the Geats. Slavjani does not equal Slav, which is a Nordic term that appears to be based on the phonetic structure of slavjani, but does not convey the same meaning as slavjani.

                      Its important to remember that, during the 19th Century, the Sarmatian and Illyrian language groups came to be generically referred to as the Slavic languages and an assumed tribal designation was anachronistically and erroneously associated with this term. Logicians refer to these kinds of events as semantic shifts. This particular shift represents an inversion of interpreted historical events and ethnic classifications.

                      Take this scenario for example. Japanese soldiers were called "Nips" during World War II by their Allied opponents. "Nip" is based on Nippon, the name of Japan in the Japanese language, which means "land of the rising sun". Think back to the Chronicle of Nester: Is it "We are Nips" or is it "We are a people who come from the land of the rising sun"? One language has one set of meanings for a similar word and a different language has another set that reinforces certain ideas. Translations must be grammatically and semantically accurate or they are not really translations at all.

                      Doulos meant slave in the Koine language, while Sklabenoi came to be used as a slang word for doulos. The dictionaries of those populations who were conquered and assimilated by the Romans, including Italic populations, provide excellent source material for these observations. One has to simply look up Slav and slave. Was it the Downfall of the Roman Empire or was it the Gothic liberation of Roman occupied Europe? Who's still around?

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #26
                        Excellent reply Sovius.
                        Hopefully you will stay here long enough to help unravel some hidden truths.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Sovius
                          Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 241

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                          Could you provide some sources that also support your explanation?
                          I based my observations on the context in which various authors used these terms in the past and differentiated between the connotations inherent in these terms from what variations of these terms came to mean in colonial languages like Latin and Achaean to highlight their assymetrical relationship. In this case the original documents would be the source and the supporting evidence.
                          Last edited by Sovius; 04-27-2009, 03:41 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Sovius
                            Member
                            • Apr 2009
                            • 241

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                            Excellent reply Sovius.
                            Hopefully you will stay here long enough to help unravel some hidden truths.
                            Thanks. I believe it would be an easier task, if they didn't merge Creative Writing with European History during the Victorian Age.

                            Comment

                            • Bratot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2855

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Sovius View Post
                              I based my observations on the context in which various authors used these terms in the past and differentiated between the connotations inherent in these terms from what variations of these terms came to mean in colonial languages like Latin and Achaean to highlight their assymetrical relationship. In this case the original documents would be the source and the supporting evidence.
                              I understand that, but I was asking about the names, sources in order to use it as supportive reference of what you are writing.

                              I see a lot of loggic in what you said upper, I would agree on 100% with "kindred tribes" meaning of Slavjani and it would be nice if we could rely on some authors and to provide their quotes.

                              Maybe it's only a formality but I believe has a stronger convincing effect when you put them with your explanations.
                              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                #30
                                Welcome Sovius, very good first posts.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X