Albanians in Greece

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Originally posted by Epirot
    All jokes aside, please. Greece has coined the term 'Arvanites' to conceal as much as possible its Albanian being.
    Greece didn't coin the term, it is simply the Greek version of your own original ethnonym, which is 'Arbanit'. The name you call your language, people and country today was coined, long after 'Arbanit' people were first recorded.
    Likewise Greece refer to the language of Aromanians as Vlachika (not as Aromanika) in order to belittle its links with Romanian.
    Macedonia refers to them as Vlachs and it certainly isn't meant to belittle them.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Epirot
      Member
      • Mar 2010
      • 399

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Greece didn't coin the term, it is simply the Greek version of your own original ethnonym, which is 'Arbanit'.
      I think you misunderstood my point. I am well aware that Arvanites (Arbanites) is way older than Alvanoi (Albanoi). But the intention of the Greek state by using officially such term is to detach as much as possible Arvanites from the Albanians. Behind that "innocent" use of "r" instead of "l" is the weird attempt to show Arvanites and Albanians as different people. All of linguists have settled beyond any doubt that "Arvanitika" is merely a branch of Tosk dialect who retained certain archaic forms (which does not exist in Albanian anymore). So it would be more correct to describe their language as Alvanika rather than Arvanitika.

      John Bintliff, The Ethnoarchaeology of a "Passive " Ethnicity, p. 139

      While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered andtabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanian-speaking and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project,the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the maps took shape. "Very interesting," he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity, "but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika." In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an "r" or an "1." The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers in the provinces of their country: the "Albanians" are not like us at all, they are ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable to intermarriage.Thus the difference between an "l" and an "r" neatly allows the modern Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine Albanian guest workers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it wasn't in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika? In a volume focusing on historic identities and boundary formation, it is a matter of considerable interest to understand a minority's view of itself in relation to the larger national whole into which it has been merged.
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Macedonia refers to them as Vlachs and it certainly isn't meant to belittle them
      The case in Greece is quite different. Greece attempted to Hellenize them in order to increase the number of Greek-speakings in the conquered Macedonia. Greek circles tried to alienate the Aromanian-speakings either by trying to show them as a Greek community which was influenced by the Aromanian or as a community which had no relation to the Aromanian groups of Albania, Macedonia, etc. The Greek scholar, Achilleas Lazarou stated that Aromanians are Romanized hellenes (?). Contrary to him was Koukoudis who went as far as to claim that Aromanian might be traced to 'Romiosini'. His intention was to show Aromanians as being "a Greek ethnocultural or ethnolinguistic particularity".
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        Epirot so what do you guys really want in greece recognition of minority rights???You know greece will never do that as there are only greeks in greece according to greece.So what do you guys want to happen in epirot??
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

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        • Epirot
          Member
          • Mar 2010
          • 399

          Originally posted by George S. View Post
          Epirot so what do you guys really want in greece recognition of minority rights???You know greece will never do that as there are only greeks in greece according to greece.So what do you guys want to happen in epirot??
          Greece will recognize the existence of minorities despite his unwillingness to do that. Mind that the geopolitical context is dramatically changing. If the experience is to be trusted, then Mahatma Gandhi's words really deserve to be cited:

          First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
          If both Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey pressure constantly Greece, I am almost sure that Greece would be compelled to recognize the rights of certain minorities within its territory. The current asymmetry cannot last anymore: Albania recognize the existence of Greek minority (albeit their number is greatly inflated) by giving numerous rights, whereas Greece is wholly shuddered if Cham issue is being mentioned.
          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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          • momce
            Banned
            • Oct 2012
            • 426

            Whats a "civilised greek"? Some kourada who drinks Turkish coffee, listens to Albanian, Turkish and Arabic music, and stammers in his verbose language all day long oscillating between diarrhea and constipation. Pure grecian formula.
            Last edited by momce; 02-28-2013, 02:49 PM.

            Comment

            • Epirot
              Member
              • Mar 2010
              • 399

              Originally posted by momce View Post
              Whats a "civilised greek"? Some kourada who drinks Turkish coffee, listens to Albanian, Turkish and Arabic music, and stammers in his verbose language all day long oscillating between diarrhea and constipation. Pure grecian formula.
              This is the most accurate definition about the Greek substance I've heard so far. I you don't mind I'll put that definition on my signature?
              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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              • momce
                Banned
                • Oct 2012
                • 426

                Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                This is the most accurate definition about the Greek substance I've heard so far. I you don't mind I'll put that definition on my signature?
                Sure why not. Thats what happens when a formerly elite culture is massified and polluted by 2000 years of incoherent history. Mind you I spent alot of time studying Hellenic pagan reconstructionism(as a conosseuir of a dead culture not that Middle Eastern barnyard) I can see very fine details. I am pretty much a strict follower of Fallmerayer on these questions. Actually I distinctly remember my college professors making fun of the greek students in ancient history class on occassion, all in good fun, and also pointing out that Macedonia was not part of Greece. Well that got a shock out of them. But yes in my long studies I figured out what greek was: pure malakia.
                Last edited by momce; 03-06-2013, 06:21 AM.

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  Originally posted by momce View Post
                  Sure why not. Thats what happens when a formerly elite culture is massified and polluted by 2000 years of incoherent history. Mind you I spent alot of time studying Hellenic pagan reconstructionism(as a conosseuir of a dead culture not that Middle Eastern barnyard) I can see very fine details. I am pretty much a strict follower of Fallmerayer on these questions. Actually I distinctly remember my college professors making fun of the greek students in ancient history class on occassion, all in good fun, and also pointing out that Macedonia was not part of Greece. Well that got a shock out of them. But yes in my long studies I figured out what greek was: pure malakia.
                  The modern Greeks have been lied to and brainwashed by their government, church and school system. What would you expect, shock is what you will get.
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • momce
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 426

                    Yes it was quite a shock when the prof would point out Macedonia was not part of Greece to them. Well this is not Greece they teach facts.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      As far as Macedonians is concerned the greeks don't really recognize the macedonians.But perhaps if they start recognizing others maybe we might have a chance but here's hoping.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Kukuzel, do you mind translating the above in english?
                        This thread went quiet.

                        I just used Google Translate for the above:

                        "Transvestite elites" have recently called on the press to our colleague allegedly nationalist campaign in place to protect at all costs "Albanianism" of the great Christian missionary Mother Teresa. Imagine now what can happen when love the opportunity at this show going to have to clasp a work still unfinished Voskopojare for large families and "big voskopjarėt" Kavaliotėt, Sina, Shagunat, dumb, Gondut, Bellot , Qopekat, Ballaurėt / Vallaurėt, Fundo etc .; Decorator family among them.
                        Painters were and are a prominent family aromane (angl. Aromanians), widespread in some parts of the Balkans, and beyond it, in different branches. Representative of the most prominent painters Mihail G. historically held Decorator (Boiagi), which is estimated to start aromanėve modern history. Along with the all other Djordje philologist Aromaa Costa Rosa, with whom did the first two decades of the century. XIX, he became co-founder of the theory of "the Latin" to aromanėve in the Balkans. Both worked in the cities of the Habsburg Empire, but was originally Voskopojare. Regarding the birthplace of Michael G. Bojaxhiu, two divided opinions: Max Peyfuss-thinks that he was born in 1780 on the Buddha (Die Druckerei von Moschopolis, 26), while Candroveanu marks Voskopojė Bojaxhiu born in 1770 (Antologie de prose aromana, 195).
                        Following the tradition of philological Voskopoja school, inaugurated in the second half of the century. XVIII, Mihail G. Bojaxhiu first published grammar aromanishtes (Gramatica romana sau macedo-romana, 1818), accompanied by translations of Greek and retail price. He developed a grammar of Bulgarian and one Serbian, as well as a Greek textbook, giving his share of aid in the standardization of these languages. His belief in the plurality of polyglot linguistic moved to underline: "Every language is a hypostasis of the human spirit; as many languages ​​nxėjė a man, the more things he knows. One can not win all the knowledge only of one language, even if language should be perfect in the world. To insist on a single language is both pointless and nonsense practical terms "(Gramatica, X).
                        Various family branches Decorator spread not only in big cities habsburgjike (Vienna, Buddha, Pest etc.), But also in the Balkan cities, so in Skopje. The period of the Ottoman Empire in Skopje presented as ethnically mixed city: Albanians coexist there, aromanė (Vlach), Macedonian and a small community of Jewish families. This situation had encountered since mixing of the century. XIII of Spain traveler Rabbi Benjamin of Tudelės; It is recorded in this century. Ami Bue-ja XIX; and if this situation changes well understood in Macedonian and Albanian communities, today turns out there all day. Skopje aromanėt lived in a neighborhood apart, as was the tradition of oriental cities, called "Quarter of Vlachs": "Vlaškoj mahala". Also lived in the neighborhood in which the family Bojaxhiu was born on August 27, 1910 Gonxha Bojaxhiu, the future Mother Teresa. Day in the neighborhood in question is dissolved in a large extent, it was home to painters is now a highways near a shopping center next to "Macedonia Square". There is no evidence to indicate that where Bud Bojaxhiu was baptized, but it is probable that she be baptized in the church of the neighborhood where he was born: the "Church of the Vlachs". For elementary classes attended a non-Catholic school, this shows itself in her memoirs. If we read carefully and followed pronunciations memories, let it be noted, was among the Albanian or Macedonian languages ​​that she knew? Or was "the aromanian"? Aromanishtja / vllahishtja any language is not wide circulation, language modern culture, from those taught in colleges or universities of England and the US. Knowing aromanishtes / vllahishtes by a grown man explained only by a fact, and what is he known fact.
                        At ten years of age his father died Gonxhes, Nikole Bojaxhiu and his death is understandable coming diminishing the identity of the lineage ancestors. Drane under the care of her mother, who was a Catholic from around Djakovica, regularly shpihej Gonxhja already started in the city's Catholic church, singing in the choir, until about twelve, as it has shown itself to be the desire to give birth "becoming" sacred sister ".
                        Family off- spring Macedonian painters encounter here and there, through the records of schools randomly save aromane since their establishment in the second half of the century. XIX there. Aromane the Gopeshit school, for example, founded in 1867, the records of the school year 1889-90 del Jani Decorator, while the Krushovės aromane school, founded in 1868, the year 1889-90 recordings go Ana N. Decorator, Taku decorator etc. Decorator others remained in Macedonia and connected after the Orthodox Church (pravosllave), with dozens of names in culture, politics, science, sport (Alexander decorator, Jani decorator, Demetrius decorator) etc., Held already "maqedonizuar", unlike Gonxhes fate that moved to her mother's Catholic Albanian environment in Albania.
                        Despite a flimsy The intent of FYROM official, Chairman of the Union of Macedonian Culture of Aromanėve Dimcev Dimo ​​described correctly Bud's family background Bojaxhiu in an interview for NIN-in. As recalled that once the "Jerusalem" of aromanėve had been Voskopoja and that, with the dissolution of the many families Voskopojare got scattered in cities in various Balkan countries, and the Austro-Hungarian monarchy, he describes the transition of various parts of the family decorator in Skopje, Prizren etc. He noted that Gonxhes father, Nicholas, was representative of the Vlach (Vlasi) in the assembly of the City of Skopje; for there is a relevant document made known by Stojan Tren? evskit ( "Mutter Teresa, Gondje Boiagi, ist von Ihrem Vater Nikola Boiagi her wlachischer Abstammung; wir berufen uns auf das von dem Autor Stojan Trencevski entdeckte document, das Belegn, dass Nikola Boiagi in den Fuhrungsorganen der Gemeinschaft in Skopje tätig wlachischen gewesen war "). From another side, as academician Macedonian Tome Serafimovski it has not been difficult to accept this origin: "No one in Macedonia has tended ever since Mother Teresa have been Macedonian, while in Skopje known that her father Nikola Bojaxhiu was not Albanian, but Vlach "(" Niko nije tvrdio Nikada was Makedoniji Majka Tereza da je bila Makedonka, was ali zna da joj Skoplju that Nikola Bojadzi bio otac we Albanac, already ba Cincares ").
                        All these attempts to penetrate the origin of a figure like Mother Teresa, the tow rope with no "is ours", not "not yours" can be basically absurd: I agree with this too. The Great Calcutta Christian is already holy figure that belonged / belongs to Christian humanism nationwide, even non-national or supranational. The first to be disgusted by such pulling the rope would be the people, who declined to be taken sometimes drive her ethnic affiliation or her background. But why these men the state or statelet, presidents, etc. kryebashkiakas., Undertake to determine whether to protect the origin of one or the other without haber nor genealogy, neither of philology or history? Even more notably, without knowing where falling home this knowledge? And what arguments prevail in this impressive work-nationalist alleged that our colleague rightly called "Transvestite elites"?
                        Here's some of the arguments, the Albanian media Sifting through the boulevard of levels to those professionals ATA, even by those who serve foreigners in Tirana English: "Her real name is Agnes Bojaxhiu. "Decorator" in the Albanian language means "painter"! "Or" Mother Teresa Was Albanian - her real name Bud Was Agnes Bojaxhiu. In the Albanian language Bud means "bud" and Decorator means "painter" "In a word: a logic infantile, after which Blend Gonxhja (most came precisely this forward to the accompaniment of ideas) will qitej English, because:" His real name is blend Bud and the English blend means "mixture" "as they think of these seed philologists gjenelogjistė explain words like paint (English color) and decorator are borrowings from Turkish and as such entered in more than one Balkan languages. Because, as they say in aromanishte Bojaxhiu? Bojaxhiu in aromanishte say decorator. (The reader forgive me, but I had to deal here with this kind of ordinary explanation.)
                        Beyond the spectacle of "travestisė elites" awakening of this behaving matter in Albanian culture for something else, because with names like "Aromaa", or worse "Vlach", "kucovlachs", even "shepherd" is abused traditionally (sometimes follows abused) to detraktuar voice characters in Albanian culture when they were "undesirable" for someone or something. This abuse has been (if not continues to be) a tool in the war of ideas rėndomqar: when one of the parties "warring" against the other has not any authority in the field of view. Then? Then, as to be received in thirty years '20 -30 with the shooting of Konica "kucovlachs converts", as I have discovered Fan. S. Noli "Aromaa" and "non-Albanian" (alas even this self made once such a Konica), as I have slandered Lasgushi for "Vlach Pogradeci" etc., One day they announce "great Albanian". How so, with these shqiptaromėdhenj? Then, if strikes in this show going to have to Rejuvenate working for large families Voskopojare and "voskopjarėt large", by one of gjenalogjistėve contemporary can not nėnvizosh this remark: "In ekogjenetikėn time today agreed a by all scientists agree that the most poignant for the living world is the erosion of genes in human genetics that coincides with the erosion of human genes. Human genetic erosion of social skakierėn performed persecution of man by man ". Warning that makes you think in depth, "persecution of man by man", what is reminiscent of the way they behaved for a long time in Albania the parent of Gonxha Bojaxhiu, with his sister and himself bud now Mother Teresa.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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                        • Liberator of Makedonija
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 1595

                          Albanians claim to be the decendents of Illyrians but I have never been presented with any evidence on this. Albanians didn't start to appear in European history till around the 15th century (I could be wrong but this is my understanding). Prior to then there was a country in the Caucasus called "Albania" and I know for a long time world historians did believe that Albanians migrated from the Caucasus to the Balkans in the Late Middle Ages. Apparently a Caucausian origin was "disproved" when the Albanian language was classified as Indo-European but I fail to see how that disproves such a theory as that language family includes languages from Western Europe all the way to India.
                          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

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                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            What were the Albanophone Souliotes (Tosks) by ancestry? Were they (real) Albanians/Arvanites? Did they only speak Albanian? Were they something else? Was there an admixture of other elements?

                            The real Souliotes had names, tribe names, diminutive names typical Vlach. Some examples:

                            1) Puliu, Dimulea, Dzima, Tusha, Mitu -- last four specific Vlach diminutive names for Dimitrios/Dimitri.
                            2) Gushu, Gusha, Goga -- specific diminutive names for Stergi(os) and Giorgi(os).
                            3) Coleti, Colea -- two specific Vlach names for Nikolaos/Nikola.
                            4) Guritza, Ghiotu, Scumpu, Toaca, Boci, Buci, Tonta, Ianusu, Zarba, Beicu, Fotu-Mare, Panu-Mare, Baca, Ianitzu, Zerva, Ziguri, Custa, Liona, Lachi, Tzala, etc.

                            Tribe names of Souliotes:

                            - The Greek spelling "Butzatai" (from Perevos) = from the Vlach "buci" (=sheep) + Vlach plural suffix "ati".
                            - "Bafatai" (the toads) = the Vlach word "bafa" (=toad) and the Vlach plural suffix "ati".
                            - "Sahinatai" (the sparrowhawks) = the Vlach word "sahiu/sain" (=sparrowhawk) + suffix "ati".
                            - "Tzioriatai" (the crows) = "cioara" (= crow) + suffix "ati".
                            - "Mantzatai" (the foals) = "manzu" (= foal) + "ati".
                            - "Buzbatai" = buza + bate + ati.
                            - "Cascaratai"
                            - "Botzaratai"

                            Witness like Perevos wrote exactly that the Souliot Tribe called Buzbatai had come to Souli from the Vlach villages (Vlachochoria).

                            Refer to Perevos "Istoria Tou Souliou kai Pargas", 1857 (The History of Souli and Parga, Athens 1857).

                            The word Souli / Suli EXACTLY the Vlach plural form of the Vlach word "SULA" (= spear/spike/peak). SULI mountains seen from afar resemble Spikes. The real Souliote Napoleon Zervas recognized that his family was an old Vlachophone (Vlach) family.

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                            • Carlin
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 3332

                              Bump ..............

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                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Albanian immigrants in Thessaloniki, Greece: processes of economic and social incorporation

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