The Greko-Turk struggle against Macedonia

[Agamoi Thytai]

Brailsford not only confirms the relationship between the animal Karavangeli and the Turks as depicted in the photo

Brailsford was known for his Bulgarophilia and this story of "blessing the canons" was perhaps invented either by the Bulgarians or by Brailsford himself.Does this photo show Karavangelis blessing the cannon?As for the photos of Greek andartes alongside Turkish officers,with Turkish flags e.t.c.these were taken after the Young Turks declared the constitution and gave indemnity to all irregular bands that fought in Macedonia.Thus many Greek andartes but also Macedonian komitadjis participated in the celebration of this event and were photographed with Turkish officers.Like Sandanski,Dimo Hadzidimov and Todor Panitsa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%88%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B8_%D0%BC%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BE%D1%82_%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B5%D1%86_%D0%9D%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B3.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sandanski,_Dimo_Hadzhi_Dimov,_Todor_Panitsa_with_Young_Turks.jpg

[Soldier of Macedon]

Brailsford was known for his Bulgarophilia and this story of "blessing the canons" was perhaps invented either by the Bulgarians or by Brailsford himself. Does this photo show Karavangelis blessing the cannon?

Spare me your revisionism, nobody has ever suggested that Brailsford "invented" the story about the animal priest. The maggot is pictured next to the Turks as they are prepared to fire cannons into Macedonian villages. The mere fact of his presence at that time is enough. What was he doing there, having an innocent coffee with the Turks while they kill his co-religionists?

As for the photos of Greek andartes alongside Turkish officers,with Turkish flags e.t.c.these were taken after the Young Turks declared the constitution and gave indemnity to all irregular bands that fought in Macedonia.

All of them? Are you suggesting that there isn't at least one photo among them which was taken between 1904-1908, when Greeks and Turks were in unison against the Macedonians?

Agamoi, I am noticing a certain trend in you where you argue points just for the sake of arguing them, and not out of any valid reason. Either come with substance, or don't bother posting on these discussions. Don't waste my time while you try to argue in favour of stupidity.

[Bill77]

Spare me your revisionism, nobody has ever suggested that Brailsford "invented" the story about the animal priest......

All of them? Are you suggesting that there isn't at least one photo among them which was taken between 1904-1908, when Greeks and Turks were in unison against the Macedonians?......

Agamoi, I am noticing a certain trend in you where you argue points just for the sake of arguing them, and not out of any valid reason....

SOM,

These articles would go well with your discussion with AT.


THE NEW YORK TIMES march 31 1902

Greek Betrayal and Manipulation

Quote: Macedonian Committee in Bulgaria, is somewhat discredited among the wealthier classes, owing to the crimes and extortion connected with it. Still the physical force party, which may be compared to the Fenian section of the Irish Nationalists, continues to follow of ex Presdident Sarafof, who has Planned a General rising of Christians in the coming spring.

The dispatch says that the overtures made in Athens and Belgrade have not been found tempting and that the Greeks have disclosed the scheme to Turkey.

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Li...ntenegr....pdf

London Times-New York Times May 26 1903

A GREAK SPY BETRAYED DELCHEFF'S WHEREABOUTS TO THE TURKS

Delcev, the Famous Macedonian chief, says the Sofia correspondant of the Times, show that he accompanied a band under Voivoda and Kirtchovski, together with the poet Tavorov, and entered the village of Banitza, near Seres, where his presence was betrayed to the Turks by a Greek spy.
A large force was surrounded the village, and all the members of the revolutionary band were killed after a long resistance.

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Li...may%201903.pdf

Its clear the Greeks were bum chums with the Turks and worked in unison. Not only the photos prove this, now we have these news articles coming from the New York Times and London Times that puts credibility to the argument regarding the photos.

Agamoi Thytai, once again.......You Loose.

[Pelister]

The Serbian Consul in Bitola reporting about the Macedonian Uprising of 1903. He expounds on the relationship between the New Greeks and the Turks.

There is an aspect of the Krushevo question which stand out clearly ... the Krushevo rebels have lasted out longer in their battles against the Turkish troops than the Greek soliders did in the last Turkish-Greek war (1897). My satisfaction is all the greater since the Greeks are growing more and more despicable through their mercenary services to the Turks ...

Cited in 'The Ilinden Uprising' by Krste Bitoski, in Macedonian Review, Vol. III, No. 1, 1973, p.20

[George S.]

What religion advocates the blessing of guns to kill innocent victims.The killing of people & taking their lands by illegal means.The cowardly way the taking of people's possessions by simply doing away with them .These people are so inhumane as classing them as maggots & morons is too good for them

[indigen]

THE REBELLION IN MACEDONIA – Excerpts from telegrams:

INSURGENT POSITION STORMED, FLIGHT BEFORE ARTILLERY FIRE
LONDON, Aug. 31.
Advices which have been received at Salonika state that Servet Pasha, with six battalions, stormed a position held by 3000 Macedonians at Smilevo. 1000 Macedonians were killed, and the remaineder fled before the artillery fire of the Turks.

--------------------

SMH - August 14, 1903:
TURKISH TROOPS SURROUNDED
London, August 12

A body of insurgents surrounds 200 turkish troops at Dirgje.

Fourty six Macedonians have been killed in fighting at Okrida (Ohrid).

There have been sanguinary encounters between Kutzo-Wallach (Vlach) and Greek bands.

------------------

The Sydney Morning Herald, Friday, August 21, 1903:
THE KRUSHEVO FIGHTING – HEAVY LOSSES LONDON, Aug. 20.
In the fighting at Krushevo the revolutionists lost 60 killed and 12 wounded. They then left the vicinity. The casualties of the Turkish troops numbered 250.


GREEK SYMPATHY FOR TURKEY
London, Aug. 20.

The GREEK GOVERNMENT, the GREEK METROPOLITAN and the PEOPLE of GREECE ARE IN ACTIVE SYMPATHY WITH the TURKS.

-----------------

The Sydney Morning Herald, Tuesday, September 1, 1903:

INSURGENT POSITION STORMED, FLIGHT BEFORE ARTILLERY FIRE
LONDON, Aug. 31.
Advices which have been received at Salonika state that Servet Pasha, with six battalions, stormed a position held by 3000 Macedonians at Smilevo. 1000 Macedonians were killed, and the remaineder fled before the artillery fire of the Turks.


SMH - September1, 1903:
HOLY WAR URGED
LONDON, Aug. 31.

Fanatics in the Tetovo and Kostovo districts, near Uskub, urge Moslems to prepare for a holy war against Christians.

[The Koran, the sacred book of the Moslems, enjoins the making of war on infidels. To spur the believers on it is ordained that he who is slain while fighting in defence of and for the propagation of Islam is a martyr, while a deserter from the holy war (jehad) is held up as an object of execration, and has forfeited his life in this world as well as in the world to come.]

INSURGENT SUCCESS
LONDON August 31
Four hundred MACEDONIANS surprised the village of Setina and killed 189 (turkish) soldiers.

For fair use only.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=73972

---------------

One thing I would question is how much actual ethnic Turks were responsible for atrocities in the OTTOMAN EMPIRE (STATE) in this period and how much more should in fact be attributed to the ARNAUTI and other non-Turk OTTOMAN state and feudal ruling elements/circles.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There is no doubt that Turks committed atrocities against Macedonians, but the majority of such acts were carrried out by Albanians (on behalf of the Turks).

[Agamoi Thytai]

Spare me your revisionism, nobody has ever suggested that Brailsford "invented" the story about the animal priest. The maggot is pictured next to the Turks as they are prepared to fire cannons into Macedonian villages. The mere fact of his presence at that time is enough. What was he doing there, having an innocent coffee with the Turks while they kill his co-religionists?

Well,i suppose people don't get photographed when they are making dirty deals unless they are stupid,and Karavangelis was certainly not.He was the religious leader of an important part of the Sultan's subjects,so it's not strange he was invited there.As for his "co-religionists",they had already shown their sentiments towards his flock:

“The fighting between insurgents and Turkish troops in the vicinity of Krushevo continued…. several villages inhabited by Greeks,it was added,had been set on fire by the insurgents”.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F70716F6385D16738DDDA00994D0405B838CF1D3

However,i don't consider this incident as excuse for Karavangelis,if he really blessed the Turkish cannons.I condemn it as unforgivable for a clergyman.

All of them? Are you suggesting that there isn't at least one photo among them which was taken between 1904-1908, when Greeks and Turks were in unison against the Macedonians?

Actually i can't prove all of them are after 1908 but neither you can prove some of them are before the declaration of the constitution by the Young Turks.You said that "Greeks and Turks were in unison against the Macedonians" however there are many cases where Turks were in good terms with Macedonians or with Bulgarians or even with pro-Romanian Vlachs.The Turks always applied the principle of "divide and conquer":

"Turkey maintained her empire by dividing her subject nationalities,favuring now the Bulgarian,now the Serb,now the Greek and in 1905 the Koutzo-Vlach,according to the weakness or importunity of each".

http://books.google.com/books?id=vas8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA425

"This reign of terror by armed bands from both sides, who used all available means (including murder,torture,the burning of houses,and collaboration with the Ottoman authorities) in order to achieve their aims,lasted until 1908,when the Young Turk revolution,with its declaration of equality for all communities within the Ottoman Empire,brought about a cessation of hostilities".

http://books.google.com/books?id=AiJvm924ankC&pg=PA9

This is writen by a Macedonian,Andrew Rossos:

Thus, unlike the VMRO, the "political separatists," Makedonisti, or "national separatists," sought above all free and unhindered national cultural development through expulsion of foreign propaganda organizations.For this reason,they opposed a revolutionary struggle against the Ottoman empire,which they viewed as a potential ally in the confrontation with Bulgaria,Greece,and Serbia.Only evolution and cooperation with the Ottoman empire,and perhaps help from some great powers,could free Macedonia from the pretenders and prepare its people for an independent national and political life”.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hE5PxJjrI8AC&pg=PA97

"The Young Turk revolution led to further divisions within VMRO,with the Sandanski wing most fervent in its support of the new authorities".

http://books.google.com/books?id=ppbuavUZKEwC&pg=PA58

"Today, as I write this I read in a newspaper correspondent's dispatch that Sandanski led the vanguard of the Young Turk army to the gates of Constantinople."

http://books.google.com/books?id=iHGPI-ouoE0C&pg=PA212

"Therefore,the cooperation between the Young Turks and Sandanski continued until the eve of the Balkan Wars."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Therefore%2C+the+cooperation+between+the+Young+Turks+and+Sandanski+continued+until+the+eve+of+the+Balkan+Wars&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD&tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&hl=el

Agamoi, I am noticing a certain trend in you where you argue points just for the sake of arguing them, and not out of any valid reason. Either come with substance, or don't bother posting on these discussions. Don't waste my time while you try to argue in favour of stupidity.

Then why do you bother to answer to those of my posts which you consider are devoid of any substance?

[Ottoman]

Ok my Greek friends bow to your Turkish kings

[Risto the Great]

There is no doubt that Turks committed atrocities against Macedonians, but the majority of such acts were carrried out by Albanians (on behalf of the Turks).

I am sure they followed Ottoman decrees when it suited them. But I am also sure they did it to suit their personal agendas more.

[Agamoi Thytai]

The Serbian Consul in Bitola reporting about the Macedonian Uprising of 1903. He expounds on the relationship between the New Greeks and the Turks.

"There is an aspect of the Krushevo question which stand out clearly ... the Krushevo rebels have lasted out longer in their battles against the Turkish troops than the Greek soliders did in the last Turkish-Greek war (1897). My satisfaction is all the greater since the Greeks are growing more and more despicable through their mercenary services to the Turks ..."

Cited in 'The Ilinden Uprising' by Krste Bitoski, in Macedonian Review, Vol. III, No. 1, 1973, p.20

What an utter bs said that "Serb" consul!First of all,the Greco-Turkish war of 1897 lasted 30 days:

http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&hl=el&q=greco+turkish+war+1897+battle+of+30+days&btnG=%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7+%CE%92%CE%B9%CE%B2%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD#sclient=psy&hl=el&tbo=1&tbs=bks:1&source=hp&q=greco%20turkish%20war%201897%20thirty%20days%20war&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=greco+turkish+war+1897+thirty+days+war&pbx=1&fp=130891213c37123e&pf=p&pdl=3000

While the Krushevo uprising lasted no more than 10 days,and that's because most of the Turkish troops of the vicinity were absent:

"However it did manage to take over Krusevo for a week—aided by the absence of most of the Ottoman troops in Kosovo to deal with Albanian resistance to the reform movement—and declare a republic there".

http://books.google.com/books?id=ppbuavUZKEwC&pg=PA57

When Ottoman troops returned from Albania,most insurgents fled away,with the notable exception of the Vlach Pitu Guli and his followers who fought to the end.Is it not strange that Macedonian insurgents selected Krushevo,a town mainly inhabited by pro-Greek patriarchist Vlachs and not a genuine Macedonian town?:

"When the Macedonian bands entered Krushevo,they occupied the Greek quarter,hoisting a flag over a Greek house...the shells destroyed 360 houses,215 shops and all the fine large Greek and Vlach houses.The Greek church and school were destroyed.The Macedonian quarter escaped".

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50F12F73C5D11738DDDAB0A94D0405B838CF1D3

Why did they refuse the Turkish offer to allow the women and children to leave?

"They made an offer to the komitadjis to allow the women and children to leave the town.This proposal was declined and the bombardment began.The komitadjis quickly abandoned the town,and escaped to the neighboring forest,where pursuit was impossible".

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FB0D1EF73C5D11738DDDAF0A94D0405B838CF1D3

So what was the purpose of this Macedonian uprising?Only to provoke the Turks to commit attrocities against Christian non-Macedonian populations so that the great powers might intervene?How come that the vast majority of dead were non-Macedonians?An uprising that lasted only 8-10 days?The Greek uprising in Macedonia (Chalkidiki) lasted 8 months,from March till November 1821:"History of the Greek revolution",Thomas Gordon,pages 285-288.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6y3RAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA285

[Agamoi Thytai]

Ok my Greek friends bow to your Turkish kings

I'd rather prefer to sh...t on their beards!Ai sich@%&tir re Memet!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well,i suppose people don't get photographed when they are making dirty deals unless they are stupid,and Karavangelis was certainly not.He was the religious leader of an important part of the Sultan's subjects,so it's not strange he was invited there.

He was a religious leader of a Christian group pictured next to Greek fighters and the Ottoman (Muslim) military, as they were preparing to fire into other Christian villages. Pathetic. And it strongly corroborates the story told by Brailsford. Period.

As for his "co-religionists",they had already shown their sentiments towards his flock:

Your examples are few when compared to the dozens of examples of Greek atrocities against Macedonians, before and after this event. Greeks were already cooperating with the Turks by this time, betraying Macedonians to Ottoman authorities (such as Delcev). What you should be asking yourself is why those Greek villages were burned by Macedonians.

However,i don't consider this incident as excuse for Karavangelis,if he really blessed the Turkish cannons.I condemn it as unforgivable for a clergyman.

It's your choice if you want to remain ignorant of the obvious, deliberately or otherwise.

Actually i can't prove all of them are after 1908 but neither you can prove some of them are before the declaration of the constitution by the Young Turks.

Given that Karavangeli is pictured in two of the photos, and that the most intense Greek/Turkish cooperation took place during 1904-1908, it is more than likely.

You said that "Greeks and Turks were in unison against the Macedonians" however there are many cases where Turks were in good terms with Macedonians or with Bulgarians or even with pro-Romanian Vlachs.The Turks always applied the principle of "divide and conquer":

Can you produce examples where Macedonian fighters and bishops are pictured next to Turks preparing to kill Greeks, or documented evidence of Macedonian/Turkish military cooperation against the Greeks?

Then why do you bother to answer to those of my posts which you consider are devoid of any substance?

To make note of their irrelevance and the need for you to avoid them.

Is it not strange that Macedonian insurgents selected Krushevo,a town mainly inhabited by pro-Greek patriarchist Vlachs and not a genuine Macedonian town?:

"When the Macedonian bands entered Krushevo,they occupied the Greek quarter,hoisting a flag over a Greek house...the shells destroyed 360 houses,215 shops and all the fine large Greek and Vlach houses.The Greek church and school were destroyed.The Macedonian quarter escaped".
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...D0405B838CF1D3

Krushevo is a genuine Macedonian town, it was established by Macedonians, its name is Macedonian, and it has always had Macedonian inhabitants. Patriarchists weren't always 'pro-Greek' as Exarchists weren't always 'pro-Bulgar'. There wasn't really much choice with respect to churches at that time given the association of the Greek and Bulgar states with the administration of these religious groups. Several regions across Macedonia had rebelled during the Ilinden Uprising, circumstances were obviously favourable in Krusevo for the establishment of a government.

Why did they refuse the Turkish offer to allow the women and children to leave?

"They made an offer to the komitadjis to allow the women and children to leave the town.This proposal was declined and the bombardment began.The komitadjis quickly abandoned the town,and escaped to the neighboring forest,where pursuit was impossible".
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...D0405B838CF1D3

Are you kidding me? Macedonia was already up in arms. They were going to let their women and children leave and go right into the hands of the Turks? Given what took place during the 'mop up' operation after the rebellion was crushed, their fate was already sealed, so it was a wise choice, as several of them had an opportunity to escape while the Ottomans and their lackeys were busy fighting the Macedonian rebels.

So what was the purpose of this Macedonian uprising?Only to provoke the Turks to commit attrocities against Christian non-Macedonian populations so that the great powers might intervene?How come that the vast majority of dead were non-Macedonians?An uprising that lasted only 8-10 days?

It's purpose was the liberation of Macedonia, but its instigation and prepartion was lacking. To deny that Macedonians significantly suffered as a consequence of Ottoman reprisals is a denial of my history and the truth, don't push your luck. The Ilinden Uprising lasted for at least a couple of month, with battles before and after the republic established in Krusevo. It was only the republic that lasted 10 days. Get your facts right.

The Greek uprising in Macedonia (Chalkidiki) lasted 8 months,from March till November 1821:"History of the Greek revolution",Thomas Gordon,pages 285-288.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6y3RAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA285

Those so-called 'Greeks' are not all 'ethnic Hellenes', they're mostly Macedonians and others that lived in the region:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...k+independence

The rebel chieftans in Thessaly and Macedonia could summon the people to stand up boldly "like Christians and Romei" (Romans), but they could not call upon them to bear themselves like "Hellenes and Greeks".

[Ottoman]

I'd rather prefer to sh...t on their beards!Ai sich@%&tir re Memet!

Greeks helped Turks but finally Turks shit in your face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%931922)

[Onur]

He was a religious leader of a Christian group pictured next to Greek fighters and the Ottoman (Muslim) military, as they were preparing to fire into other Christian villages. Pathetic. And it strongly corroborates the story told by Brailsford. Period.

Greeks did this cuz they were thinking that if the uprising would be successful, then Macedonia would be a part of Bulgaria instead of Greece.

So, there is one explanation to that. Religion means jack shit when it comes to Greek expansionist agenda.