Ventilator

[Vangelovski]

Well there isn't any double standard done intentionally. The people make the country. But when they are silent and do nothing then they are allowing this to happen. However, the new flag is justified by the fact that the people not only are doing nothing to get the old flag back, but they are even referring it as the symbol that represents their nation, which they themselves call the Republic of Macedonia. Maybe it just "feels" right to them.

So now that we've established that you do not want to impose double standards, then that means that FYROM is acceptable as well because 'they' are doing 'nothing' about it?

[Vangelovski]

vangelovski i can separate it because my values are probably different to yours, i find somethings more important than others and in my opinion a flag is not worth jeopardizing a whole nations existence.

but let me ask you what would you have done if you were our leader and what do you think the consequences of your decision may have been

It does seem that our values are different. I think what I would have done is fairly clear and I would not have accepted the scare-mongering that continues until this day. The same scare-mongering that will resurface when we are finally asked to change our name at a referendum.

[osiris]

vangelovski i am not sure what you would have done, thats why i asked.

[sf.]

Words, words, thousands of words and you're all turning in circles. Regardless of the situation, people will have their personal ideas about symbols, their representations and even the values of those symbols.

I'm just gonna present my take on the flag. After the Interim Accord, we were left without a flag. Therefore, a new flag was needed and introduced. And although the two events are linked, one as a consequence of the other, they are not the same act of betrayal.

However, I see the flag as a reminder of that betrayal. And if flags are meant to be symbols of a state and its people, then it is an appropriate representation of our lack of political sovereignty. By design (in all senses of the word), it is a distortion of who we want to be, and who we allow ourselves to be.

[Risto the Great]

However, I see the flag as a reminder of that betrayal. And if flags are meant to be symbols of a state and its people, then it is an appropriate representation of our lack of political sovereignty. By design (in all senses of the word), it is a distortion of who we want to be, and who we allow ourselves to be.

Well said.

[osiris]

betrayal or compromise under duress.

[Bratot]

The current flag occured as a political concession, but I don't agree with most of you on the lack of respect you show.

I find the title of this topic offensive and insensitively lead this discussion.

[osiris]

thats how i see it to bratot

[QUOTE]The current flag occured as a political concession, but I don't agree with most of you on the lack of respect you show.

I find the title of this topic offensive and insensitively lead this discussion./QUOTE]

[indigen]

betrayal or compromise under duress.

Sellout! Rigged elections via massive citizenship issue to Shiptars and outright fraud backed by Imperial masters in return for selling out Macedonian national interests and a unhindered 4yr access to the national feeding troughs (drzhavni jasli), i.e. privatisation of state property.

[indigen]

The current flag occured as a political concession, but I don't agree with most of you on the lack of respect you show.

I find the title of this topic offensive and insensitively lead this discussion.

Maybe you are too young to feel the pain of those that marched and protested for our recognition, sovereignty and national and human rights through the 1980s and 1990s using the Macedonian Sun as our national symbol/flag. There was so MUCH HOPE AND PRIDE that has been GUTTED by the ALL THE IZRODI and their dirty deeds.

I fully AGREE with Aleksandrov and Vangelovski, amongst others, and it makes me proud to know there is still left Macedonians with dignity and integrity who are ready to voice their principled stand on vital Macedonian national issues.

[osiris]

do you know what disturbs me in this debate indigen its the fact that we dont have anyone who lives in the republic debating.

[aleksandrov]

Good definition. And for what it's worth the continuation of the name Macedonia, albeit officially and un-officially (no need to get into the whole definition of Nation and State again please) has been in existance for a very long time. But what about the 16 ray symbol as a flag representing the Macedonian people after antiquity? And was it ever a symbol that represented the Macedonian people in antiquity? Or are we assuming this be the case? Is this a modern interpretation of the 16 ray flag?

TrueMacedonian, I will address this briefly, but only with the qualification that I consider it to be a detraction from the substantive issues here.

The concept of a 'national flag' as we know it today is a relatively new concept, just like the nation-state as we know it today is a relatively new concept. However, groups of people and communities with some sort of cultural, tribal, dynastic, regional or other bond have used shared symbols and even flags for many centuries. There is ample evidence from various periods in Macedonian history in which various forms of what we know as the 16-ray Sun symbol has been used by Macedonians, as a cultural, dynastic and religious symbol. The number of rays varies, but the basic form is essentially the same. As I said in an earlier post here, the primary 8 rays in the 16-ray Sun are the same as the 8 rays in the Sun symbol found in numerous Macedonian churches. I have also seen it on what are alleged to be Byzantine coins from the period in which the Macedonian Dynasty, which identified itself with the ancient Macedonians, ruled the East Roman Empire. Furthermore, if you can get your hands on a copy of Dr Petar Popovski's book "Георгија Кастриот - Искендер: Крал на Епир и Македонија и Втор Александар Македонски", you can read the following (pp. 339-340):

Државата на Георгија Кастриот имала и свои земски, државни симболи - знаме и грб, со кои била препознатлива меѓу останатите македонски феудални заедници во Матија - на Нов и Стар Епир и во Северна Арванија, територии кои пред и во време на османското владеење на тие простори биле третирани како Западна Македонија.

Имено, тоа биле симболите на древното Македонско античко Кралство - античките геми. Првобитно знамето на династијата на Кастриотите се состоело од црвена и бела боја на полето, со шестнаесеткрако Сонце во Средината. Црвената боја го покривала горниот и долниот дел од полето, а белата - средниот дел. Врз трите полиња било втиснато шестнаесеткрако Сонце, денес познато како Сонцето од Куклиш (според Грците - од Вергина), во златно жолта боја. На двата краја од полето имало реси - киски, истотака, во златно жолта боја. На горниот дел од штитот, кој бил во црвена боја, имало крст, изработен од сребро, поради што знаемто било нарекувано Крстат бајрак.

Знамето на античките Македонци се користело од како се знае за Кастриотите, од времето на најстариот предок Бране Иван(ов), чија традиција ја продолжил неговиот син Јован (Бранила) Канински, а тоа бил почетокот на XIII век. Овој вид знаме се негувало скорој кај пет генерации, до пред крајот на XIV век, кога под притисок од Византијците и Анжујците, кои во тоа време биле најмоќни воени сили на Медитеранот, дошло до негова промена. Мотивите за промена на изгледот на знамето на Кастриотите бил стравот кај тие сили од обнова на македонското античко кралство, што било разбирливо, бидејќи династијата на Кастриотите била во постојана експанзија, како во воен, така и во економски поглед. ..."

The author then goes into further detail about how widespread the 16-ray flag was among Macedonians leading up to and during Ottoman occupation, particularly among the regional Macedonian sub-group ('tribe'), known as Mijaci. There are plenty of references in the book.

The most important historical fact about the 16-ray Sun symbol is that it was freely chosen in the early 1980s as an autochthonous symbol of the indigenous Macedonian identity by the movement of Macedonians who advocated a free and united Macedonia, including a declaration of independence by the Republic of Macedonia. Were it not for that movement, of which people like Todor Petrov and the founders of MAAK and VMRO-DPMNE were a domestic part during the break-up of Yugoslavia and the establishment of the independent Republic of Macedonia, the sovereign Macedonian state of which that flag became a symbol would arguably not have come about.

[aleksandrov]

alexandrov i dont think the comparison of the australia flag and its relationship to the indigenous australians and ours with the ventilator is valid.

It is valid in the sense that both flags symbolize oppression or submissiveness of the indigenous peoples who (are forced to) use them as their own.

[aleksandrov]

Yes, the design was not handed to us, we chose it ourselves and it has certain relevance.


If that particular flag was imposed on us (we chose it) then I would completely agree with you.

If you call the predicament we were put in with the adoption of that flag a 'choice', than you have an understanding of choice that is very incompatible with the universally codified understanding of what qualifies for expression of FREE WILL or free choice. I asked you before and you didn't answer whether if I put you in a prison and asked you to chose a cell you would consider living in that cell to be your choice?

If you want to convince yourself that you chose the flag of oppression and submissiveness, please keep it for yourself, but don't expect me and others who feel like I do to show any respect for it. From the moment that we became aware of its conception, myself and the overwhelming majority of Macedonian activists and organizations in Australia vehemently rejected its adoption and the Interim Accord of which it was a product, as an illegitimate act of oppression and treason, and we vowed never to accept it. VMRO-DPMNE, which was left out of the Parliament through electoral fraud in order for Gligorov and Co. to gain the 2/3 majority required to fully implement the Interim Accord and change the flag, also took a similar position. Unlike the VMRO-DPMNE leadership, we have stood our ground.

[aleksandrov]

Are you calling the Macedonians within the Republic of Macedonia slaves?

I am calling all of those who have accepted oppression as an inevitable reality, and especially those who are or pretend to be proud of that status, slaves. And my position wouldn't change if they made up 99.99% of the population of Macedonia or of the world.

“Moralnata revolucija – revolucijata vo umot, srceto i dushata na eden ropski narod, e najgolemata zadacha.” Goce Delchev