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Old 09-11-2018, 08:46 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
You guys wouldn't believe the level of idiocy expressed in some of the private conversations we have had with big players involved in the "resistance".

I will tell you all right here right now, there is no conspiracy here, no shocking developments, just plain old naivety, lack of organization, lack of intellectual capacity, and stubbornness. We are a useless people, and that has never been more clear to me than in these past few months while trying to get something done.
Nobody would stand in your way for trying.
However, the futility is obvious. It's like trying to read poetry to cavemen.
This will all happen simply because RoMacedonians have no incentive to do anything. They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:51 PM   #1352
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Nobody would stand in your way for trying.
However, the futility is obvious. It's like trying to read poetry to cavemen.
This will all happen simply because RoMacedonians have no incentive to do anything. They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.
There are even DPNE/Mickoski supporters who are claiming that his speech was a call to boycott.

Sadly, there are more stupid people out in the world now then ever it seems.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:12 PM   #1353
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As I said, unless there is some kind of uprising, Macedonia will be implementing this agreement.

The referendum is consultative (plebiscite) meaning the government is not obliged to do anything in Light of turnout or votes, the government has already commenced ratifying parts of the agreement, joint committees and plans have been established with Greece and NATO as per the agreement, the opposition (DPNE) are on board with the agreement (they have washed their hands of it), western backers have openly expressed that any positive result regardless whether the threshold is reached would be considered a mandate to implement the agreement. This has already gone beyond any kind of democratic, consultative or lawful process, it is merely a fictional show that needs to be seen at being undertaken for the sake of public perception.

Macedonia will implement its part of the agreement (even though it is likely Greece is not yet done with it). These spineless donkeys on both sides of politics don’t give a fuck about anything except how to steal the most money for themselves. The only way to really stop this train is an uprising against the government and the whole political heirarchy.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:17 AM   #1354
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Its exactly like trying to read poetry to cavemen.

The worst part is that there are people trying to do something, actually more people than I would have originally expected. The problem is that that Macedonians are incapable of both leading and following, which leaves a consistent trail of stupid and useless efforts which only further discourage other from taking part.

There are plenty of anti name change groups, but no unified plan. We have all somehow stumbled on boycott, which in my opinion is right up the alley of what Macedonians desire. A way to say you are doing something, without actually having to do something.

We have tried to convince everyone and their mother that a boycott will only serve to skew the referendum results heavily in favor of the yes vote. But no one seems to understand a couple simple facts.

First and most important but apparently lost on everyone is that the referendum is non binding, and yet the number one strategy is to try and delegitimize something that is already illegitimate? It's totally naive and falls into the same old Macedonian mentality of going for a technical win. Similar to Rogi's comment about the president needing to sign it. We are trying to play this rules based technical game, when that all when out the window from day one.

Second the demographics are not in our favor for a boycott to even succeed. Forget the the reasoning in the first reason above, you simply can't have a successful boycott because of the numbers. This is what I meant by believing our own bullshit. Macedonians refuse to believe that they make up at best 2/3 of the country, and of that 2/3 at least a third is for the name change publicly, and no one knows how many are for it privately. On top of that boycott organizers are under the impression that they can achieve 100% unity in boycotting with people who are against the name change. In what world can you ever convince 100% of any group to do anything. There is a strong likelihood that the anti name change group may even be in the minority, in which case a boycott makes even less sense.

We have spent 30 years perpetuating idiotic conspiracy theories, and now when we actually need a real world response, no one even knows what that looks like. No one in that country has ever tried to lead a resistance, so they are doing it like first graders.

One simple question that we could never get an answer to while dealing with various groups was this:

What happens the day after the referendum? What are you plans if the boycott fails, what are your plans if the succeeds?

NOTHING, or the hit "Its a secret"

So to summarize for all of you: The plan is to sit home, do nothing(claim you are boycotting), and hope turnout is under 50%, and then further hope that because of that fact that Zaev and co just poof and disappear, like in a fucking harry potter movie.


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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Nobody would stand in your way for trying.
However, the futility is obvious. It's like trying to read poetry to cavemen.
This will all happen simply because RoMacedonians have no incentive to do anything. They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.
Our suggestion to all involved was to forgo the boycott and instead put those people on the streets and stop the referendum. Block the voting locations. We have enough numbers for that to work, but alas, the geniuses in Macedonia opted to go for the one route that required the least effort and is guaranteed to fail catastrophically.

I told Bojkatiram directly, "Don't be shocked or disappointed when on October 1st, the referendum has 55% turnout, and a 70% approval. You have been warned"

Uprising? LOL One of the reasons for not blocking voting stations was, "They will send police, they might hit us".

I can tell you with certainty, there is not a single group that is planning anything that can even remotely be considered as an uprising.

We thought we could enlist the help of the president, but he won't even be in the country during the referendum.

At this point all we can hope for is that the Greek citizens go nuts and stop this madness. Although I think even those baboons know a good deal when hey see one.

I'm still not convinced that a majority of Macedonians are even against this.

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As I said, unless there is some kind of uprising, Macedonia will be implementing this agreement.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:44 AM   #1355
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Boycotting strategy is highly risky and has a high potential for disastrous results.
The mood is not that one sided where boycotting would result in a low voter turnout and an invalid referendum.

All the shiptari will show up and vote yes therefore you don't need that many more Macedonians to make 51%.

Send a clear message and vote No and put it beyond doubt.

Why does a simple NO vote seem so difficult??
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:00 AM   #1356
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A few reasons, which just voting No does not suffice.

The referendum questions is essentially asking, are you for EU and NATO membership, then qualifying it with, by accepting the Prespa agreement. So no where does it plainly say do you accept a name change. So in that regard it is dishonest.

Then there is the means by which the referendum came about. The entire Prespa agreement is unconstitutional and thus invalid. Meaning the referendum itself is unconstitutional and invalid.

Based on those first two reasons, even voting in the referendum would constitute legitimizing the whole process that led to the Prespa agreement and thus legitimize the agreement itself. So in principle a boycott is good.

Then there is the math problem. Even if everyone who wanted to vote NO did so, it's not a certainty that a majority will vote NO. So by participating and voting NO, you do two things to your own peril. Risk pushing turnout high and legitimizing the process, and you risk losing the actual vote.

The only real option here was to note vote, and cause anarchy during the voting process.


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Originally Posted by Stojacanec View Post
Boycotting strategy is highly risky and has a high potential for disastrous results.
The mood is not that one sided where boycotting would result in a low voter turnout and an invalid referendum.

All the shiptari will show up and vote yes therefore you don't need that many more Macedonians to make 51%.

Send a clear message and vote No and put it beyond doubt.

Why does a simple NO vote seem so difficult??
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:37 PM   #1357
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DPMNE's Official Decision on how to vote in the Referendum: "Everyone should make their own decision!"
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:55 PM   #1358
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LMAO, suck on that all you DPMNE apologists. They don't even have the balls to ask people to vote no, let alone more.

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DPMNE's Official Decision on how to vote in the Referendum: "Everyone should make their own decision!"
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:50 AM   #1359
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They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.
That is the argument that Stojance Angelov was making during a recent debate with Filip Petrovski. "Jas uste ke bidam Makedonec", or something to that effect. This coming from a guy who was once a celebrated general and national hero, to forming a party (ironically called Dostoinstvo, meaning Dignity) claiming to be against any name change, to joining forces with Zaev and urging people to vote yes in the referendum. Filip Petrovski seemed to be advocating for that old dual-name formula, our constitutional name for international use and let Greece call us whatever they want. There is not a single political figure of substantial influence in Macedonia that is for a complete cessation of negotiations with those racist animals who form the ruling class down south.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:27 AM   #1360
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https://www.rferl.org/a/opposition-l.../29486580.html

Opposition Leader Tells Macedonians To Vote 'With Their Conscience' In Name-Change Referendum

Macedonia's conservative opposition leader has told supporters to vote "with their conscience" in the upcoming referendum on changing the country's name.

The vote was up to "each individual, with their conscience and morals" to "decide what's best for their family and our beloved Macedonia," VMRO-DPMNE leader Hristijan Mickoski said in comments published on the party's website on September 12.

Mickoski, whose party opposes a deal Macedonia signed with Greece in June to change the name of the former Yugoslav republic, did not call for a boycott of the referendum set for September 30.

The deal changes Macedonia's name to the Republic of North Macedonia, ending a dispute with Greece that has lasted for decades.

Macedonia's center-left government of Prime Minister Zoran Zaev launched its referendum campaign earlier this week, urging people to support the name change.

The campaign has been supported by EU leaders and the United States.

If the name change is approved in the referendum, and Macedonia's constitution is changed, it will open the door for Macedonia to join the EU and NATO.

U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis will embark on September 16 on a trip to Skopje to "show U.S. support for Macedonia during NATO accession and continued U.S. commitment to peace and security in the region," the Defense Department said in a September 12 statement.

Mattis announced he would travel to Macedonia this weekend and he voiced concern about possible acts of "mischief" by Russia to try and block Macedonia's path to NATO membership.

U.S. Senator Ron Johnson, who sits on a Senate subcommittee overseeing European and regional security, traveled to the Macedonian capital on September 9.

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have also visited.
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