Comparison between Turkic and related languages

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Comparison between Turkic and related languages

    Just watched a documentary about Rebiya Kadeer, an Uyghur activist that hails from western China, which was formerly known as eastern Turkestan before the Chinese took over the land. She is a very passionate woman, and listening to her speak was interesting, it definetly sounds close to Turkish, but how close I am not sure, which is the reason why, hopefully with Onur's help, we can write a sentence in English here and give the comparative equivalents in each of the Turkic languages.

    Onur, what do you say, can you gives us comparisons between Turkish from Turkey and its equivalent languages in Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Uyghur language in west China, etc?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    #2
    Rabia Kader fights for the rights of Uyghur people for a long time. She and all the members of her family sent to the prison several times and they suffered a lot but they continue to their struggle.




    Uyghur Turks lives under the occupation of communist China since 1940s. East Turkestan is where Uyghur people lives for 1000+ years. I think Uyghur Turks formed their first state there as early as 9th century but since 1940s, Chinese government changed the name of that province to "Xinjiang" and it`s forbidden to use the word "east Turkestan" for that province in China since then.



    For your question about the level of closeness of Turkic languages;

    It depends on what kind of sentence i use for giving an example. For example if i use a simple sentence like "I have two apples in my bag" to compare 10+ different Turkic dialects/languages, all of them would be quite same but if i use more complex sentence with post-medieval era terminology, then it will be different to some degree. It`s because, Turkish people in Turkey got separated from other Turkic peoples in Caucasus and central Asia since 11th century(except Azeri Turks since we separated from them only at ~70 years of USSR era). Since then, our languages evolved in different conditions. Also, ~70 years of USSR influence on these Turkic people had huge effect on their language cuz Russians forcefully educated them only in Russian and changed their script to Cyrillic. They also adopted many Russian words in that era. What has happened during that times was close to be defined as assimilation cuz Russians even changed their names too.


    For a quick comparison with a simple sentence, i am gonna use the translator in Turkish language institute`s web site. It provides translations between 9 different Turkic languages;



    English; I have two apples in my bag

    Turkish of Turkey; Benim torbada iki elma var

    Azeri Turkic; Man torbada iki alma var

    Bashkir Turkic; Min torbada iki alma bar

    Kazakh Turkic; Men dorbada eki alma bar

    Kyrgyz Turkic; Men torboda eki alma bar

    Uzbek Turkic; Men torvada ikki alma bar

    Tatar Turkic; Min torbada iki alma bar

    Uyghur Turkic; Man torvada ikki alma bar

    Turkmen Turkic of Turkmenistan; Men torba iki alma bar



    Some of the Turkic states abandoned Cyrillic and switched to Latin script after they gained their independence at 1990s but afaik, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs still uses Cyrillic script today. The web site for the translations between Turkic languages provides it all in Latin script tough.


    I found translations of more complex sentences with post-medieval era terminology on wikipedia;

    Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

    English; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

    Turkish of Turkey; Bütün insanlar hür, haysiyet ve hukuk bakımından denk doğarlar. Akıl ve vicdana sahiptirler ve birbirlerine karşı kardeşlik zihniyeti ile hareket etmelidirler.

    Uzbek Turkic; Varca ademler erkin, kadir-kıymet ve hukuklarda denk olup doğulurlar. Onlar akıl ve vicdan sahibidirler ve birbirleri ile biraderlerce muamele kılışları zaruri.

    Kazakh Turkic; Barlık adamdar twmısınan azat jäne kadir-kasïyeti men kukıktarı teñ bolıp dünïyege keledi. Adamdarğa akıl-parasat, ar-ojdan berilgen, sondıktan olar bir-birimen twıstık, bawırmaldık karım-katınas jasawları tïis.

    Uyghur Turkic; Hemme adem zatidinla erkin, izzet-hörmet we hokukta babbaraver bolup tuğulğan. Ular ekilge we vicdanğa ige hem de birbirige kérindaşlik munasivitige xas roh bilen mu’amile kilişi kérek.




    Some of the words are different in other Turkic languages but i understand most of these words. We also use some of these different words present in Uyghur and/or Uzbek too but not in this kind of sentence. We use them in different expressions. Btw, i can understand much easier when i read other Turkic languages but if i hear this same sentence above by an Uyghur in east Turkestan, than it would be much more difficult to understand for me because of the difference in their accent. Although, it`s pretty obvious that if i go to any Turkic state, i can easily communicate with them in daily conversation with basic sentences and it only takes about 1-2 month for us to completely learn the differences in their tongue since pretty much all the grammatical words&rules, word order and all the structure of the sentences are quite same.
    Last edited by Onur; 10-14-2010, 01:22 PM.

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    • julie
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 3869

      #3
      Cheers Onur, interesting.
      "torba" is bag in Macedonian too.
      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

      Comment

      • Onur
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2010
        • 2389

        #4
        This is Gagauz Turkish taken from a website of a newspaper in Gagauzya, Moldova;

        Doktor IREÇEK Konstantin, Universitet profesoru olup Pragada, Çehiya memleketindä yılın 1878 yazdı Bulgarların istoriyasını, neredä yazêr gagauzlar için da te ne:

        IREÇEK yazêr, ki 1066 yılda 60 000 kuman geçmişlär Tunayı hem da daalmışlar Bulgariya içindä, kumannarın çoyu kayıp olmuş cenk edip bulgarlarlan hem peçeneglärlän, hem çoyu ölüm bulmuşlar ulaşık (salgın) hastalıklardan. Kumannarın kalanı erleşmiş Makedoniyeyä".

        http://anasozu.com/history/?razdel=2&id=10
        Same text in Turkish of Turkey;
        Doktor IREÇEK Konstantin, universite profesoru olup Pragda, Çek memleketinde 1878 yilinda yazdi Bulgarlarin tarihini, ne yazar gagauzlar için:

        IREÇEK yazar ki 1066 yilinda 60.000 kuman geçmisler Tunayi hem de dalmislar Bulgaristanin icine, kumanlarin cogu kayip olmus cenk edip hem Bulgarlar hemde peceneklerle, hemde cogu olum bulmuslar bulasici hastaliklardan. Kumanlarin kalani yerlesmis Makedonyaya....


        English;
        Dr. irecek konstantin, a professor in the university of Prag wrote the history of Bulgars in 1878 and he noted this about gagauzes:

        In the year of 1066 AD, ~60.000 Cuman people passed from Danube river and they have gone to the lands of current Bulgaria. Most of them died in a war with both Bulgars and Pechenegs and mainly because of contagious diseases. Rest of the Cumans settled in Macedonia....




        Gagauz Turkish is quite same with my tongue but there is one difference; because of the influence from Russian and Moldavian languages in the USSR era, Gagauz Turkish`s word order sometimes different than standard Turkish`s "Subject-object-verb". They use the order of "Subject-verb-object" like Indo-European languages. So, i can understand it but sentences are in inverse form.


        P. S: Btw, this text is from an article about the history of Gagauz people. As for the history about Cumans in the text;
        After they settled in Macedonia, they created the city of today`s Kumanova in northern Macedonia, which means "field of Cumans". Gagauz people are believed to be the descendants of these people. AFAIK there are about ~4000 Gagauz still living in Kumanova today, for 900+ years!!!
        Last edited by Onur; 10-14-2010, 03:27 PM.

        Comment

        • Onur
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 2389

          #5
          Originally posted by julie View Post
          Cheers Onur, interesting.
          "torba" is bag in Macedonian too.
          You took these words in Ottoman era like Serbs, Bosnians, Greeks did but there is one interesting fact about Hungarian language like this. There is a famous sentence to indicate similarity between Hungarian and Turkish;

          English; I have a lot of small yellow apples in my pocket

          Turkish; Cebimde cok kucuk sari elma var

          Hungarian; Zsebemben sok kicsi sarga alma van


          If you don't believe, copy&paste these and translate to English in google


          It`s a striking example and ofc the word order is same in both languages. Hungarians didn't adopt these words from us in Ottoman era unlike you did. They adopted these words in era of the Hun Empire and/or Khazar Empire(4th to 9th century or earlier) because Ottoman Empire took control of Hungary at 16th century and it`s impossible that they learned these Turkish words for "apple, pocket" from us as late as 16th century. Also some grammatical suffixes and words like "who, whose, whom..." are similar too, so it cannot be 16th century borrowings. 16th century, Ottoman era adoptions in Hungarian language are quite same as yours like Boza, borek, charsi etc.

          Also a lot of agriculture and horse riding terminology in current Hungarian language are Turkish words too.


          English - Turkish - Hungarian
          Whose book - Kimin kitabi - Kinek könyve
          Who - Kim - Ki
          Many - Cok - Sok
          Little - kucuk - kicsi
          With whom - Kiminle - Kivel

          Apple - elma - alma
          My apple - elma(m) - alma(m)
          My apples - elma(larim) - alma(im)





          .
          Last edited by Onur; 10-15-2010, 07:07 AM.

          Comment

          • Onur
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2010
            • 2389

            #6
            I posted this message before, about the interaction of Turkish and Macedonian languages;


            So i REALLY wonder how many words are common in Macedonian and Turkish now. I just did a google search and found this article written by a Turkish Macedonian in Skopje, BLAJE KONESKI university.

            abaci>abaciya, bahçivanci>bavçanciya, gayretli>gayretliya, dalaveraci>dalaverciya, elçi>elçiya,zavalli>zavaliya, hileci>ileciya, yazi>yaziya, kavgaci>kavgaciya, lâkirdi>lakrdiya, masrafli>mastrafliya, niyetli>nietliya, pamuklu>pamukliya, raki>rakiya, sarayli>sarayliya, tatli>tatliya, ütü>utiya, fidan boylu>fidanboyliya, hocabasi>hocabasiya, çarsi>çarsiya, serbetli>serbetliya, çalgi>çalgiya, karsi>karsiya, burgu>burgiya, kutu>kutiya, orospu>orospiya/rospiya, ütü>utiya, çarŝŭ>çarsiya, sürü>suriya, terazi>teraziya.

            Transformations of letters when adopting Turkish words in Macedonian language;
            b>p: biber>piper, bodrum>podrum, sabun>sapun
            c>gy: cezve>gyezve, cüzdan>gyuzden
            f>v: ziyafet>ziyavet, insaf>isav, mutaf>mutav
            h>k: ahmak>akmak, bahŝiŝ>bakŝiŝ, halife>kalifa, mahsus>maksus
            h>v: bahçe>bavça, bohça>bovça, mühlet>muvlet, tahta biti>tavtabita
            tamahkâr>tamavkyar, tenha>tevna
            h>y: zahire>zayre
            k>g: böbrek>bubreg, kabarmak>gabardisa, kaval>gaval, kurabiye>gurabiya, çiftlik>çiflig, saka>sega
            k>gy: kiremit>gyeramida
            m>n: tamam>taman

            Dropping of the letter "H";
            h->ĝ-: haber>aber, hazir>azar, hayir>air, hayvan>ayvan, haydi>ayde, haydut>ayduk, helâl>alal, helva>alva, hamal>amal, hamam>amam, hamle>amle, han>an, harami>aramiya, harman>arman, harç>arç, haslamak>asladisa, hekim>ekim, hekimlik-
            >ekimlik, hem>em, hesap>esap, hileci>ileciya, hizmet>izmet, hora>oro, hortum>ortoma, hovarda>ovarda/ofarda, hudut>udut, hizmetkâr>izmekyar, hâsil>asli,


            There are 4576 words listed in this article but it says there are probably around 8000 common words in Turkish and Macedonian.




            8000+ words, WOW


            This was forwarded to me recently and I thought to post it here. Here there's the 64th PMA results. As I was reading it, it seemed to me that it was a list of demands rather than the resolution/declaration. It seems pathetic: RESOLUTION The Pan-Macedonian Association of the USA in a duly convened meeting at its 64th


            .

            Comment

            • Onur
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 2389

              #7
              This is for Turkish and Greek languages but i think you will understand most of the words in this video too. Probably most of these words exists in all Balkan languages;

              YouTube - Turkish-Greek 13.000 common Words

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                #8
                the turkic languages seem to be pretty similar in some respects.
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • Bratot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2855

                  #9
                  Very old entry on my former blog:

                  A COMPILATION OF COMMON WORDS IN TURKISH AND GREEK
                  Blogger is a blog publishing tool from Google for easily sharing your thoughts with the world. Blogger makes it simple to post text, photos and video onto your personal or team blog.
                  The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                  Comment

                  • Bill77
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 4545

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Onur View Post
                    This is for Turkish and Greek languages but i think you will understand most of the words in this video too. Probably most of these words exists in all Balkan languages;

                    YouTube - Turkish-Greek 13.000 common Words
                    Not most of the words only few .....very few.

                    What is important for people to understand is, us Macedonians never claim these "few" words are Macedonian.

                    Unlike the Greeks, in many cases they add an "S" at the end of the Turkish word and claim its Grik back from the Ancient days.
                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                      Greeks, in many cases they add an "S" at the end of the Turkish word and claim its Grik back from the Ancient days.

                      Yes, i heard that in every Greek dictionary and etymology, their explanation for the root of these 1000s of words are either "ancient Hellenic" or "archaic, obscure"!!!

                      Why deny the obvious thing? It`s nonsense...

                      For example, most of our sea and sailing terminology like the names of the fishes comes from medieval Greek language and this is written in several books and other sources. This is also an indication of our later arrival to Anatolia since we didn't know the marine world 1000+ years ago and we learned it from medieval Greeks.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #12
                        I remember an amusing conversation with a Greek fellow who was convinced that 'sikter' was ancient Greek, lol.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #13
                          Most of the common Macedonian-Turkish words would also be used by others in the Balkans, and not all of them are Turkish in origin. Here are my comments on some of the below:

                          kutu>kutiya: Kutija for box and Kukja for house. Is that Turkish?
                          orospu>orospiya/rospiya: Used by Greeks also. Macedonians generally say 'kurva'.
                          bodrum>podrum: What does this mean in Turkish?
                          bahçe>bavça: Serbs also use it, they say 'bashta'.
                          kaval>gaval: Is this word Turkish?
                          saka>sega: I don't think 'sega' is Turkish.
                          kiremit>gyeramida: This is Greek, isn't it?
                          haydut>ayduk: Even Croatians use this word, they have a team called 'Hajduk Split'.
                          hora>oro: Is this Turkish, what does it mean?

                          8,000 is a big number, I have my doubts about that much similarity.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Onur
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 2389

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Most of the common Macedonian-Turkish words would also be used by others in the Balkans, and not all of them are Turkish in origin
                            Some of them are Persian or Arabic but Turks changed these words spelling to make it more suitable to Turkish tongue and every Balkan language uses these Turkish transformed versions, not the original Persian/Arabic forms of the words.

                            I checked Turkish etymology web dictionary. It`s so basic and incomplete but gives some hint;

                            kutu>kutiya: Kutu means box in Turkish and web site says it`s Greek word.

                            orospu>orospiya/rospiya: It means whore. It`s Turkish form of the Persian word "ruspi".

                            bodrum>podrum: It means basement. It might be the Turkish derivation from Greek word "hippodrome".

                            bahçe>bavça: Garden. The root is Persian "bag, bagh", means field, plantation but "bahçe" is Turkish.

                            kaval>gaval: Pipe formed instrument, traditionally used by shepherds and medieval nomads. It`s Turkish word.

                            kiremit>gyeramida: It`s Greek word.

                            haydut>ayduk: thug, brigand. The web site says it`s early mediaval Hungarian and Turkish common word but it`s probably Hungarian "haydu, hayduk"

                            hora>oro: It`s a common name of all collective dance forms, done by more than one person, usually hand in hand. It`s written as a Turkic word in the 12th century book "Codex Cumanicus" to describe the ritual dance of shamans but Pontic Greeks says it`s Greek






                            8,000 is a big number, I have my doubts about that much similarity.
                            About 4600 common words already listed in this article, PDF;




                            Also, if you think that most of our vocabulary invented after medieval era, then it`s quite possible. I mean, neither of us had as big as vocabulary we have today at 14-15th century. Big portion of the words we use today, invented after Balkans became Ottoman Empire province
                            Last edited by Onur; 10-18-2010, 05:16 AM.

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              #15
                              regarding the marine terminology in macedonian how about more which means sea,
                              talas,talasi,wave,waves,branovi-waves,
                              reka-river,
                              brod lotka-boat,
                              riba,ribi-fish,fishes,
                              plivaj-swim,
                              podmornica-submarine,

                              Regarding origin of words or their roots professor odisej belcevski found that there are 2500 english words that have roots to the macedonian words.
                              There are a lot of instances where greeks claim that the words are greek roots but when linguists trace them they are actually macedonian
                              root words.The word history is macedonian,the word cosmos is macedonian,cos (winding) most(bridge).The word olymp is actually macedonian word.Ol means the sun. Even the word odessy is a macedonian word odi seTHe greeks were good imitators,good colonisers & copy cat other cultures then label their own by putting ous.Even to renaming it with their greek version.Sounds familiar they changed even toponyms to greek names in the 20th century.
                              Last edited by George S.; 10-18-2010, 06:21 AM. Reason: edit
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

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