South Slavic tribes

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  • Delodephius
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 736

    South Slavic tribes

    I made a list of "Slavic" tribes that existed in the Balkans in the period from the 6th until 9th century AD. Some existed afterwards, some before, some also had namesakes in other parts of Europe. I am not sure if the list is complete.

    Slavic tribes. For these tribes we can say with some certainty were Slavic speaking since they have names that can be explained through the Slavic languages. The tribes in red have namesakes, other Slavic tribes in other parts of Europe that have the same name. This could indicate common ancestry of those tribes.
    Severians, Ezerites, Moravians, Druguvites (Δρουγουβῖται), Vaiounetes (Βαϊουνηται), Braniches (Braničevci), Smolyani, Obodrites, Milingoi (Μηλιγγοί)

    Iranian tribes. These tribes were most likely Iranian speaking or can be linked to the Iranian speaking Scythians, Sarmatians, Iazyges, Alans, etc.
    Croatians, Serbs, Sagudates (Σαγουδάται)

    Germanic tribes.
    Guduscani (modern day Gočani in Lika and Dalmatia). Goths, probably from Gothiscandza from where their name might also be derived.

    Turkic tribes. Tribes most likely of Avar or Bulgar origin that came with the Slavic speaking tribes. Common Slavic being the Lingua Franca of the Avar Khaganate they too most likely spoke it.
    Velegezites (Βελεγεζίται), Berzites (Βερζηται)

    Balkan tribes. These were Slavic speaking tribes, but their name is of local Balkan origin (Palaeo-Balkan, Latin, Greek) indicating that they might also have been founded by natives who adopted Slavic as the common language or Lingua Franca.
    Travunians, Konavlians, Diokletians, Zachlumians, Nerentines (Paganians), Timochans, Strymonoi, Rynchines, Carantianians

    The tribes in blue were the ones which sieged Solun in the 5th century.
    Last edited by Delodephius; 08-09-2011, 04:55 PM.
    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.
  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #2
    Just with the Berzites (Βερζηται) - weren't they Slavic-speaking also?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      #3
      Well actually all of the tribes in blue are suppose to be Slavic speaking. Berzites are today's Brsjaci, right? Their origin, or maybe just the leading part of the tribe, was Turkic. Berz is apparently a Greek rendition of Barč a Khazaro-Bulgarian tribe. That is at least what O. Pritsak had to say. According to him Druguvites and Vaiounetes are also Turkic tribes, but their names seem much too Slavic to me, the first coming from the word 'drugovi' which means 'comrades', 'friends', and the second from 'voin(ik)' meaning 'soldier(s)'.
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #4
        One could probably argue a Slavic origin for the word Berz also:

        The purpose of this thread will be to explore the possibility of a common linguistic branch that split from Proto Indo-European around the time of the satem sound change, which came after the commencement of the centum sound change. This branch would include the (Paleo-)Balkan and Balto-Slavic language families, and for the


        PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; THR bruzas - ‘quick’; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; Old Maced. b'rzo; Mod. Maced. brz, brzo - 'quick'
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Onur
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 2389

          #5
          This is kinda pointless because you cannot easily differentiate and categorize any medieval Eurasian tribe. You cannot claim that Berzites was only Slavic or Croatians and Scythians, Sarmatians was only Iranians. Most likely, all these tribes are mix of these people, all of them.

          For example, there was a language called Crimean Goth. It became extinct in 18th century but according to the records of that era, there was bilingual people around northern Blacksea who spoke Turkic and Gothic German or Slavic and Gothic. These people was the leftovers of early medieval Goths who mingled with others.

          Now, how come you can claim that Berzites was only Turkic or only Slavic? Would it be correct to categorize them with strict differences? Even in 10th century, eastern Roman emperor Constantine was writing that Avars was Huns/Turks in one sentence and Avars as Slavs in another sentence in his own text, Administrando Imperio;

          Below is collection of information from this forum and other sources, presenting a chronology of Serbian historical events where reference to the inhabitants and areas as Bulgarian and/or Greek is prevalent. The purpose is not to demonstrate that Serbs are the latter two, but that such terms are as insignificant to them as they


          Another example is eastern Roman emperor Leo`s book called Tactica written in early 10th century. He says that the people in Pannonia are Turks and Panonia is Tourkia. As you know, Hungarian kings has been crowned as the King of Tourkia for about 200 years. He also talks about another tribes as Pechenegs and Uzes (Oghuzs) in that book. After 11th century, the people in Pannonia became Hungarians and Uzes (Oghuzs) came to Anatolia en masse and they became Turks and Anatolia became Tourkia.


          These differences started to become clear only after 11th century but if you are talking about 5th to 10th century, everything is shallow.
          Last edited by Onur; 08-10-2011, 07:40 PM.

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          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #6
            Originally posted by Onur View Post
            This is kinda pointless because you cannot easily differentiate and categorize any medieval Eurasian tribe.
            We have an interest, so we can try and base our assessment on the information we have, both linguistic and historical.
            You cannot claim that Berzites was only Slavic or Croatians and Scythians, Sarmatians was only Iranians. Most likely, all these tribes are mix of these people, all of them.
            I don't believe anybody said they were "only" one or the other. But doubting that one or the other was largely Slavic-speaking, for example, is being ignorant. Thus, if you have no interest in the topic I find your intervention on this thread rather pointless. If you have something constructive to contribute in terms of determining the origin of these tribes, then by all means share it.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              #7
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              One could probably argue a Slavic origin for the word Berz also:

              The purpose of this thread will be to explore the possibility of a common linguistic branch that split from Proto Indo-European around the time of the satem sound change, which came after the commencement of the centum sound change. This branch would include the (Paleo-)Balkan and Balto-Slavic language families, and for the


              PIE bheres - 'quick, festinate'; THR bruzas - ‘quick’; LTH bruz'as - ‘somebody who runs to and fro’; Old Maced. b'rzo; Mod. Maced. brz, brzo - 'quick'
              Could be that too, but the name of a tribe being "The Fast Ones" sounds a bit unconvincing. Unless they were primarily composed of lightly armoured and fast warriors.
              The misconception most people have of early Slavic peoples is that their warriors had little to no armour and carried only light weapons. This stems from the descriptions of Slavs in Roman sources, but only of the Slavs living on the Danube border that occasionally raided the Roman territory. The Slavs that sieged Solun were very well equipped, with thick armour and heavy weapons: swords, axes, pikes, they even had siege weapons. Some scholars have made note that these Slavs were not the same as the Slavs who raided Roman territory before, but were much better organized armies of warrior tribes making a living out of war and conquest, not local pheasants who did a skirmish or two a year to supplement their farming and hunting. It was these conquering Slavs that established the Sklaviniae in the Balkans.
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #8
                Originally posted by Delodephius
                Could be that too, but the name of a tribe being "The Fast Ones" sounds a bit unconvincing. Unless they were primarily composed of lightly armoured and fast warriors.
                Fair enough, although it wouldn't be too unusual to name a group after an attribute such as 'quickness'. It is often used for sporting teams today, for example. Another reason why I made the suggestion is that the devoiced z -> s, which can come into play for a proposed development of b(e)rzi -> brsjak. A parallel in Macedonian could be the verb vrzi (to tie), which becomes vrska (a tie).

                How about a connection to 'breg' or 'breza'? See Thracian equivalents below:

                - berga ‘hill, bank’; breg in most Slavic languages.
                - berza ‘birch’; breza in most Slavic languages.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Po-drum
                  Junior Member
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 66

                  #9
                  "no proof has been found yet to suggest a continuous settlement until the 8th century Frigisinga".. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising

                  Freising Manuscript
                  Slovene Brižinski spomeniki (I know this translation is made in 19 century but it seems logic)


                  Some variances of the name of: Phrygians - Brigiens - Brigi-Brizi??
                  At the end we have Brizijaci-Brzjaci-Brsjaci/Berziti....

                  Greater part of Brigians have relocated in Antolia. Maybe that's the turkish connection
                  Macedonia - my shoulders from ruins and skies

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Po-drum View Post
                    Greater part of Brigians have relocated in Antolia. Maybe that's the turkish connection
                    I have often questioned what makes everyone assume all influences came from the Ottomans and wonder what may well have gone the other direction even before the Ottoman invasions.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                      I have often questioned what makes everyone assume all influences came from the Ottomans and wonder what may well have gone the other direction even before the Ottoman invasions.
                      Who says that?

                      These places came to my mind as soon as i read your msg;
                      Macarköy (Hungarian: Feketeforrás or Magyarfalu (Madzsarköj)) is a Hungarian village in Turkey, at the Aegean shore. This village was established 420 years ago. The villagers were settled in the village when part of the Kingdom of Hungary was occupied by the Ottoman Empire.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macark%C3%B6y
                      Polonezköy or Adampol is a small village at the Asian side of Istanbul, about 30 kilometers away from the historic city center, within the boundaries of the Beykoz district. It was founded in 1842 by Polish settlers.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonezk%C3%B6y
                      Arnavutköy (meaning "Albanian village" in Turkish) is a historic neighborhood in Istanbul, Turkey, famous for its wooden Ottoman mansions and fish restaurants as well as the prestigious Robert College campus with its centennial buildings.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnavutk%C3%B6y
                      Belgrad Forest is a mixed deciduous forest lying 15 kilometers north-west of Istanbul, Turkey. Geographically, the forest is located at the easternmost point of the Thracian Peninsula.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrad_Forest
                      There are many more...

                      Macarköy has been founded in 16th century when 100s of Hungarian families has migrated to Anatolia [reason unknown].

                      Polonezköy has been founded when Austro-Hapsburg empire annexed Poland. All their revolutionaries who resisted German occupation seek refuge to Ottoman empire [sole enemy of Hapsburgs] because otherwise they were going to be executed by the Germans.

                      Arnavutköy has been founded in 16th century by the migration of christian Albanians from Morea to Istanbul. By the 19th century, these christian Albanians self-identified themselves as Greeks but they were obviously Albanians when they first gone there otherwise Turks wouldn't call the village as Arnavut-köy in 16th century.

                      Belgrad forest is named after a village, created when ~100 Serbian families from Belgrade moved in to Istanbul in 16th century [reason unknown]


                      Hungarians in Macarköy and Serbians in Belgrad village has lost their identities and disappeared among Turks after some time. Albanians in Arnavutköy became Greeks. Some of the Poles in Polonezköy lost their identity but the rest of the majority still speaks Polish as mothertongue and still lives in half Turkish half Polish way today, in the countryside nearby Istanbul

                      Click here;
                      Last edited by Onur; 10-24-2011, 06:06 PM.

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #12
                        Its anoyher theory that we are descended from thr brigians.THere are sinilarities of words etc.but who knows for sure.?They were there at one time & then puff dissapeared where did they go.?
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

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                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #13
                          The story is that the Brygians (or at least a significant portion of them) migrated to Asia Minor, where they became known as Phrygians. The importance of the name alteration is that while they were still living in the Balkans their name was pronounced with a B rather than PH, which means they followed the same phonological development in this respect with other Paleo-Balkan peoples like Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, etc. A comparison would be the name Phillip, which in Macedonian would have been pronounced as Billip.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Po-drum
                            Junior Member
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 66

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            The story is that the Brygians (or at least a significant portion of them) migrated to Asia Minor, where they became known as Phrygians. The importance of the name alteration is that while they were still living in the Balkans their name was pronounced with a B rather than PH, which means they followed the same phonological development in this respect with other Paleo-Balkan peoples like Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, etc. A comparison would be the name Phillip, which in Macedonian would have been pronounced as Billip.
                            Also φυγα : bega .
                            Macedonia - my shoulders from ruins and skies

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                            • Voltron
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 1362

                              #15
                              There are a lot of similarities between Phrygian and Greek as well.
                              It is said that Greek is the closing living relative to Phrygian we have today.

                              Palaeolexicon is an online dictionary and word study tool for ancient languages.

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